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Is F1 truly about auto racing anymore?


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#1 Gravelngrass

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 02:23

I have been saying this for a long time in different ways: F1's current paradigm is more about avoiding racing and/or conservation than encouraging it.  The race on Sunday just had so many different instances of it, that I thought I'd just list them here to see what people think:

 

1. Not because it is Verstappen as there were other examples, but because of the high profile of the driver and the relevance of his fights to the championship, let's check this case. You have a close, exciting race between two of the championship contenders; there's fighting and a good show for fans. Ok, one goes too aggressive and they give him a penalty (in this case two, but for argument's sake, let's say he just got one 5s penalty to make the point clearer). For all practical purposes, you have destroyed an on-track fight as 5s when two cars are that evenly matched is the same as basically ending that fight for the whole race. Why not simply make the offending driver give back the position so that they can continue what's become pretty rare and is, basically, the essence of auto racing? Verstappen knows his race with Nor is over, so he automatically changes mode and focuses on saving tyres, the car, etc. and we fans are robbed of what we tuned in for.

 

Why the obsession with penalizing? A Spanish pundit in the Latinamerican ESPN transmission immediately wanted a penalty in the Colapinto-(was it Lawson?) contact because "the rule says when tyres touch it's an automatic penalty"? It seems some people are enjoying playing judge more than the actual attempts at racing these poor driving bastards try to provide us when they are allowed by the teams, rules and social (media) pressure.  

 

2. Sainz complaining twice that his teammate is driving too fast! Is this really what it has come down to? If I'm in the same team as you and I lead the first few laps, I have the right to win the race, or, at least to stay in front of you because the team has to guarantee that you won't fight me? What's all this bullshit? Is this a point collecting exercise only or does it still hold some resemblance to unleashing 20 super fast cars to see who finishes first? What type of greedy, corporate arid view of auto racing is this? Or are most F1 spectators just brain dead team fans who only care about seeing a logo or a color win? Has marketing brainwashed the majority of fans so that F1 can get away with presenting such a sorry excuse for racing and the sheep applaud in excitement? 

 

3. Ham was following Rus for many laps and we were all anticipating a racing climax, and then what happened? From what I could understand, he just literally assassinated all probability of a nice fight with that most evil of F1 gadgets: DRS. Did people notice how grossly unfair DRS is? Did people see how disproportionate the advantage it provided was? A car very far behind was right on the other's gearbox at the end of the straight. Racing is supposed to be a fight for position, not a game of making passes as easy and straightforward as possible and reach the head of the race...for what? As a driver, I want to show the other driver, and the public, that I'm a faster driver, a more talented driver, that I can pass him with both under equal circumstances! And where has the art of blocking gone? It also was a tool that the best drivers knew how to use beautifully. Now? Nah, we don't need it, we just want our fav driver to win as aseptically as possible, by as much difference as possible and as many years as possible. Winning winning ueber alles! 

 

Sorry for the rant. It just hurts to see something you used to love so much and keep on having high hopes for, destroyed by bureaucrats... 



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#2 Jackmancer

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 02:54

DRS, dirty tactics and complaining on the radio, it's all part of the racing now. You could say the same about Prost wanting to have the 84 Monaco Grand Prix finished or Senna blocking Mansell in Monaco 1992. This stuff always happens. Bridgestone teams didn't want to compromise for Indy 2005, and Schumacher wanted some non-overtaking lap 1 for Monza 2001 (probably because it'd benefit him). What about Alonso holding up Hamilton Hungary 2007 so he couldn't do another lap in qualifying? There's so many examples. Teams and drivers always do what's best for them.



#3 Afterburner

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 04:09

F1 is ruled by computers powered by big budgets, and those budgets use the computers to wage war on uncertainty. Great for businesses but terrible for fans.

#4 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 04:25

Formula Delta

#5 loki

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 05:36

F1 is about car building with less emphasis on racing.



#6 Myrvold

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 05:59

Sorry for the rant. It just hurts to see something you used to love so much and keep on having high hopes for, destroyed by bureaucrats...

1. Racing is on the track, no contact. Failing to do so isn't racing.

2. It has been like this forever. Team orders, radio complaining, changing cars etc.

3. DRS isn't much different from waiting for fuel strategy to play out in the years of refueling. I dislike both.

Edited by Myrvold, 29 October 2024 - 05:59.


#7 Stephane

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 06:07

The goal is to win, not to race. Nothing new

#8 P123

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 06:25

Strange race, and battle, to pick to have a gripe about DRS.



#9 arrysen

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 07:02

F1 is still very much about Motor Racing - just the version that is F1 has always been "out there" compared to many other forms of the sport, partially due to the teams having to design and build their own cars, partially due to it being pinnacle, partially due to the cubic money involved, etc. etc. 

 

I'm no fan of DRS but it's there because the previous cars generated so much dirty air the following cars couldn't get close enough for anything other than a dive-bomb pass & the current cars have ended up in a similar situation. It's no different really from push-to-pass, the Handford device and other items in the rules that are there to even competition somewhat. 

 

The thing with Carlos on the radio was because Ferrari chose to run its cars in low-cooling mode, making them better through the air & faster - to gain from that they needed to be out the front and controlling their pace but doing that and still running at the front is a real skill and part of Motor Racing. If they ran too hard, there were going to be problems and Charles in fact did have to back off to maintain his temps.

 

Not a big fan of tonnes of penalties but sometimes they're needed.

 

In short, I think that F1 is still truly about Motor Racing but like any professional sport, it's also about a number of other things, including big business, money, manufacturers etc.


Edited by arrysen, 29 October 2024 - 07:05.


#10 pdac

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 08:05

I think F1 never really was about motor racing. It was about designing the best racing car and using races to prove which team did the best job. But that's a mute point. What is clear, now, is that designing that car used to be about humans and now, I would say, it's more about computers. Similarly, racing the cars used to be about drivers, now it has quite a lot to do with computers too.

 

But, all that means is that it is a different landscape. The machines may design the cars, work out the strategy, tell the drivers how to drive the things at any given moment, but those machines are still in the hands of humans who control how they work and can choose to ignore what they say.



#11 ensign14

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 08:37

Taking just this as an example...
 

3. Ham was following Rus for many laps and we were all anticipating a racing climax, and then what happened? From what I could understand, he just literally assassinated all probability of a nice fight with that most evil of F1 gadgets: DRS. Did people notice how grossly unfair DRS is? Did people see how disproportionate the advantage it provided was? A car very far behind was right on the other's gearbox at the end of the straight.


Pre-wings, this was not uncommon. Because the effect of slipstream was huge. Peter Gethin, talking about his 1971 Italian GP win, noted that he went from 4 seconds behind the leading group to being WITH them in no time at all just because of slipstream.

 

It's almost a throwback to the first lot of advanced aerofoils; Jim Hall designed the Chaparral ones to flatten out on the straight.

 

The real issue with DRS taking skill is because back in the sixties you still needed the skill to out-brake to overtake.  Nowadays it's much more difficult because the brakes are better and the cars bigger.  Which is what also causes the angst when there is corner contact.  Harder to pull off a clean pass.



#12 pacificquay

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 08:41

F1 is better now than probably any point in its history and yet people still complain 



#13 pdac

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 08:47

F1 is better now than probably any point in its history and yet people still complain 

 

Better is a subjective term. By some measures it's better, but by others it's not. It really depends on what aspects are important to the individual making the judgement.



#14 jacdaniel

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 08:48

Yeah it’s frustrating but you just can’t race anymore. Fans say they hate DRS but if there’s an actual battle about to break out on track you quickly have people calling for penalties.

Moving under braking, track limits, pushed wide etc

Edited by jacdaniel, 29 October 2024 - 08:48.


#15 1player

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 08:49

Complaining in Formula One was invented in 2018, and no one had ever complained or moaned about stewards and penalties before.

Also, off track drama was introduced with the arrival of Liberty Media, while no one even knew who was running F1 before, as racing was the most exciting part, and anything that happened outside of the track up until then remains a mystery to this day.

(Formula One has always been 40% about the racing, 60% about the off track drama, at least in the last 40 years

EDIT: to compensate for the increase in social-media driven drama, racing has been increased as well to retain this proportion which is the secret of the sport, hence why we have 22 races a year and sprints nowadays)

Edited by 1player, 29 October 2024 - 08:53.


#16 LolaB0860

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 09:11

Every other major racing series seems to have gone backwards in the last 10 years, but F1 has actually improved drastically. Yes, we have DRS and crap tires and sprints and cartel team structures and other little annoyances of course, but for the most part things have improved from the early 2010s.

#17 DaveInNorfolk

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 09:15

Fangio once said the aim was to win whilst going as slow as possible so I’m not sure that this is anything new!



#18 absinthedude

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 09:33

I don't think the people who are running the show think of it as anything more than a show with which to make money.

 

I am sure the drivers and mechanics/engineers think of it as racing or at least as competition.

 

It's heart has been ripped out by Liberty/FOM greed and instead of the natural evolution of what has for decades been a sport which was also big business has been moved to a pure closed shop business model. Which still utterly disgusts me. 



#19 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 09:50

I think that F1 is probably better or just as good as it’s ever been in terms of entertainment at the moment, as much as I loath DRS, sprints and all that stuff.

 

I do get a feeling though, when I’m watching other series such as British GT, WEC, or other less popular series, that I’m watching more pure ‘proper’ motorsport…whatever that means, it’s hard to put my finger on it. F1 really does feel like an amped up circus now, especially with some of the gimmicks and track limits stuff, team radio rants, etc. When I watch, for example, British GT zipping around Oulton Park, there’s really a feeling of hard competition and being almost scared watching the cars pushed around intimidating tracks. I don’t get that feeling with F1 now, and I don’t think I’ve had that feeling since the late 00’s…



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#20 noikeee

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 09:57

1. The penalties thing started when we got tracks with asphalt runoffs, when safety improved to the extent drivers no longer fear major physical harm from minor car contact, and also with the fact cars are so much closer and we have so much more wheel-to-wheel racing now. I don't like that we're constantly talking about penalties, but it's an inevitable consequence of improvements elsewhere. Not a problem.
 
2. Drivers being wankers isn't new. We just hear more of them now because they have a mic all race long. Not a problem.
 
3. If there's no DRS there's no overtaking. It wasn't even all that powerful in Mexico, and it generally hasn't been as overpowered as a few seasons back when it was constant drive-bys etc. Plus as others pointed out, it's not even against the tradition of F1 as once upon a time slipstream was super powerful. Not a problem.
 
If you don't like F1 there's other racing series. Go watch WEC or something.


#21 RedRabbit

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 09:59

Every other major racing series seems to have gone backwards in the last 10 years, but F1 has actually improved drastically. Yes, we have DRS and crap tires and sprints and cartel team structures and other little annoyances of course, but for the most part things have improved from the early 2010s.


F1 has had 3 drivers winning 14 of the last 15 championships (I include this year as a Verstappen win, and only 2 teams.

This season seems to have erased the mind numbing repetition since 2010.

F1 appears better mainly because they shout about it the loudest.

#22 jonpollak

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 10:27

So true Wabbit.


As arrysen and loki said F1’s gonna F1.
It’s still exciting. Just evolving at a rate that is hard to contain.

If ya just want great racing with minimal BS come join us at Indycar races. 12 year old cars, spec chassis, limited development but it IS a drivers series and that’s what matters.

Jp

#23 PrinceBira

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 10:49

I challenge someone to take a weekend of and re-watch an old school F1 weekend in full (end 90's, beginning 00's) 

 

I vividly remember two things:

 

1. The last 10 minutes of qualifying were interesting

2. 90% of the races were only interesting at the start. At many tracks overtaking was close to impossible (including such tracks as Barcelona)

3. If you had a lucky weekend, there was some overtaking in the pits by the overcut. 

 

If F1 would be the same type of product as it was back then, it would completely fail commercially. 



#24 Collombin

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 10:54

I challenge someone to take a weekend of and re-watch an old school F1 weekend in full (end 90's, beginning 00's)


Ok, but claiming it's better than ever is a bit stronger than just saying there were times when it was worse. Being better than the late '90s is hardly an achievement.

#25 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 11:14

I challenge someone to take a weekend of and re-watch an old school F1 weekend in full (end 90's, beginning 00's) 

 

I vividly remember two things:

 

1. The last 10 minutes of qualifying were interesting

2. 90% of the races were only interesting at the start. At many tracks overtaking was close to impossible (including such tracks as Barcelona)

3. If you had a lucky weekend, there was some overtaking in the pits by the overcut. 

 

If F1 would be the same type of product as it was back then, it would completely fail commercially. 

 

The 'entertainment' is probably better, but the spectacle is not.

 

If we had the cars of the early 00's (i.e. small, nimble, loud) now, I'm pretty sure there would be far less complaining. Yes they were also fairly difficult to overtake with, but bolt the inevitable DRS on and it would likely be similar to today.



#26 Deeq

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 11:24

You havent watched the race live, only a summary if you think Hamiltons pass was flyby amazon gift..the teammates have been battling for ages ( & very entertaining battle at that) before Hamilton overtook Russell.

For the racing ruining penalties If you wanna blame anyone blame Verstappen the hooligan for ruining the racing. You are putting the cart before the horse the penalties were a remedy for wanton sabotage of racing by Verstappen.
He admitted to it too blaming his cars lack of speed contra McLaren for his anti-racing conduct.

Edited by Deeq, 29 October 2024 - 11:26.


#27 Ivanhoe

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 12:01

Didn't take long for someone to join this thread and blame Verstappen for everything that's wrong with racing in F1.



#28 absinthedude

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 12:09

I challenge someone to take a weekend of and re-watch an old school F1 weekend in full (end 90's, beginning 00's) 

 

I vividly remember two things:

 

1. The last 10 minutes of qualifying were interesting

2. 90% of the races were only interesting at the start. At many tracks overtaking was close to impossible (including such tracks as Barcelona)

3. If you had a lucky weekend, there was some overtaking in the pits by the overcut. 

 

If F1 would be the same type of product as it was back then, it would completely fail commercially. 

 

 

I do that frequently because outside of FOM I probably have one of the largest private collection of F1 broadcasts on tape. f1 has ebbed and flowed but it was not trying to artificially create "entertainment" before. It was trying to grow, but in a relatively sustained manner. It wasn't seeing being a media juggernaut as it's prime directive. But most of the time it wasn't dull except for the "Schumacher era" where at least one could sit back and admire his talent for what it was. 

 

At some point the bubble will burst and F1 *will* fail commercially. And it will be because in recent times (Liberty I am looking squarely at you) it's chased the short term dollarpound...not because of what it was built on prior. 

 

Go back even further to when you suggest and the 80s were almost never dull, even 1988 when one team won all but one race. The 70s may well have been amateurish by even the standards of the 80s, but they weren't boring. 


Edited by absinthedude, 29 October 2024 - 12:11.


#29 Counterbalance

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 12:21

Didn't take long for someone to join this thread and blame Verstappen for everything that's wrong with racing in F1.

Oh, please. Verstappen getting grief pales into insignificance when compared to the blame apportioned to the dirty, conniving, vindictive and all powerful British media gets (which is largely bollocks and just a convenient excuse in my opinion.)

F1 is a marketing exercise primary and has been for a long time, as is all top line sport. And it’s not about to change any time soon no matter how much people complain.

Edited by Counterbalance, 29 October 2024 - 12:23.


#30 brucewayne

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 12:38

It‘s not. Driving to a delta, tyre temperature, cruising and not pushing. It’s maddening.

#31 Sterzo

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 12:49

Commercial interests, politics, inefficient officials, competitors complaining, a race ending up disappointing. Gravelingrass, you should have given up on Grand Prix racing in 1906.



#32 pdac

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 16:19

I do that frequently because outside of FOM I probably have one of the largest private collection of F1 broadcasts on tape. f1 has ebbed and flowed but it was not trying to artificially create "entertainment" before. It was trying to grow, but in a relatively sustained manner. It wasn't seeing being a media juggernaut as it's prime directive. But most of the time it wasn't dull except for the "Schumacher era" where at least one could sit back and admire his talent for what it was. 

 

At some point the bubble will burst and F1 *will* fail commercially. And it will be because in recent times (Liberty I am looking squarely at you) it's chased the short term dollarpound...not because of what it was built on prior. 

 

Go back even further to when you suggest and the 80s were almost never dull, even 1988 when one team won all but one race. The 70s may well have been amateurish by even the standards of the 80s, but they weren't boring. 

 

What you are describing is typical of any company ... They start with a product that people are happy with, but they need growth. They slowly change and adapt the product to make bigger and more lucrative sales. But, always, a point is reached where you exhaust your growth potential through just tweeking the product and you have to start making bigger changes to attract alternative revenue streams.

 

It's not Liberty that has brought this about. It started long before that. Go back to the 70's or even the 80's and it was a smaller and more focused on racing. But look later than that and you can start to identify the desire to grow the product and the efforts injected to do so.



#33 F1matt

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 16:45

F1 has created the problem itself, the main issue is the size and weight of the car (especially on high fuel loads) makes them look cumbersome in close combat making it impossible for 2 cars to stay on track when racing at close quarters at many of the tracks. There are 2 obvious solutions, make the cars smaller, narrower, and lighter, or increase the width of the tracks. I would also consider eradicating track limits by having curves that punish a driver, i.e. they lose speed if they go on them or/and have grass/ gravel traps behind the kerb so the driver risks retirement. If that means a driver retires because he is stuck in the gravel and a small child is crying in the crowds and caught on camera then so be it.

 

 

The next issue the FIA has created is DRS, for most of the time it is a get out of jail free card for the driver behind to pass the car in front, regardless of the defensive skills of the driver in front, either do away with DRS and rely on skill or strategy (early pit stop or a more aggressive tyre strategy) or give every driver 3 “push to pass” boosts per race, they can decide how to use it but it allows the driver to defend without having to go through a charge recycle which may not be a level playing field.

 

 

IMO the system is designed for the front runners to remain the front runners and if they have a had qualifying session or require an early stop it guarantees they will get back to the front very quickly with a superior car and engine, and the bonus of DRS, and the allowance of making a mistake, running wide, and getting away with it.

 

 

To back all the above up I would ban 2-way driver communication, an engineer can communicate with his driver to let him know when to come in and if there is a danger on track but as it is one way a driver can’t answer or acknowledge the message, they just drive. This prevents them from complaining and trying to have their fellow drivers penalised. If they have an issue they should report it after the race to the stewards.



#34 Gravelngrass

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 17:44


What would be so wrong about making the penalty giving back the position so that close racing can resume almost immediately? Or, with the cars being so much safer now, why don’t go back to gravel and grass instead of concrete runoffs :)? Some circuits are doing it already as you know.

With all the technology we have, engineers should be able to come up with tyres that can be pushed and, finally, the most perfect possible formula for close racing. And they should be able to come up with regulations that encourage racing instead of conserving (no penalties for engine and box changes for example?).

And if DRS is the same as slipstreaming, fine, then get rid of it. Point is, if following cars already had a natural advantage, why make it artificial? Yeah yeah yeah, turbulence made it too difficult: then design cars and rules that allow for better following (and keep them…).

And the “it has always been like that” fallacy? Come on, technically and from simply a resource POV we’re in a time where the best racing possible is achievable, why not try? Are you telling me that, for example, not forcing drivers to use different compounds during a race can’t be eliminated in one day? Or that allowing mechanics to change the car before a race to better suit the conditions won’t improve racing? Or that coming up with tyres that can be pushed a lot more isn’t at least technically feasible?

At the end of the day, every racing-avoidance measure or team decision can be justified in terms of “maximizing points for the team”, but what I’m saying is that we should take a look at F1 globally, from a macro perspective, and adjust the whole paradigm so that the incentives are more geared towards racing than safe point collecting. As said, I think we are both smart enough and technologically advanced enough that we can come up with something like that?

#35 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 17:54

F1 is about winning, racing is secondary as evidenced by the existence of team orders. DRS was a necessary evil due to the dirty air issue at the time but it’s now embedded into F1 and sponsored by Duracell for the Las Vegas GP so I doubt it will disappear even though 2026 is touted as being when it gets the axe.

One thing I miss is the spectacle and tension F1 had in the past, the cars were lighter, more nimble and the noise added an element these cars haven’t had for over a decade plus if you did have a battle for the win/podium, the tension was constantly there because there wasn’t a DRS fly-by or DRS procession on the cards.

DRS racing can only work when you have two drivers that are properly on it and can strategically use it(Verstappen vs Leclerc Bahrain and Saudi 2022), some people didn’t like the game of chicken to get DRS but I thought it was good racing as the cerebral part was on full display.

#36 Ruusperi

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 18:17

I think that F1 is probably better or just as good as it’s ever been in terms of entertainment at the moment, as much as I loath DRS, sprints and all that stuff.

 

I do get a feeling though, when I’m watching other series such as British GT, WEC, or other less popular series, that I’m watching more pure ‘proper’ motorsport…whatever that means, it’s hard to put my finger on it. F1 really does feel like an amped up circus now, especially with some of the gimmicks and track limits stuff, team radio rants, etc. When I watch, for example, British GT zipping around Oulton Park, there’s really a feeling of hard competition and being almost scared watching the cars pushed around intimidating tracks. I don’t get that feeling with F1 now, and I don’t think I’ve had that feeling since the late 00’s…

I think it stems from the appearance how F1 cars seem to be "on rails" compared to GT series and lower formula classes. That's why old F1 footage looks "more pure" because the cars were twitching, bouncing and understeering and often out of control and almost losing it with every step on the gas pedal.

Also the tracks other series uses are way narrower, and only in Suzuka you can really get the sense of speed of the F1 cars. Moreover, it doesn't help modern F1 tracks (like Austin) are just big parking lots. More unforgiving tracks (like Oulton Park [or Suzuka again]) make you nervous as even a tiny error can end your race.

 

I also agree how DRS and overpolicing discourages proper fights. Liberty still hasn't learned that no one cares about overtaking per se, but the battles that precede them.



#37 RaceBoyer

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 19:43

1.) Do the stewards normally order a car to give up position? Outside of the starting grid negotiations from Masi in Saudi Arabia 2021, I don't remember too many other times where they did this. The swapping position tactic is something that the teams themselves can choose to do, in order to avoid the stewards getting involved, and the stewards are happy to let the teams police things in the first instance so that they have to step in less often. If the teams choose not to swap positions, and the stewards disagree with the order of the drivers as the result of a particular incident, they then penalise the one that unfairly gained via a time penalty. This seems like an issue you have with the teams not self-policing in the first instance and ruining the fight between Lando and Max, rather than a problem with the general rules.

 

2.) Yeah, Sainz can whinge and try to hope his team hold Leclerc back, but it didn't appear that Ferrari actually listened to him, and that is all that matters. In the end Sainz was just plain faster, (as if Leclerc could have gone faster but was told to pace himself, he would have paced himself to stay clear of Norris). So Leclerc was going as fast as he could, which means he wasn't asked to not compete for the win by his team, meaning that the whinging fell on death ears, and you actually got your wish. This seems like an issue you have with particular drivers that whinge and try to get team orders to happen in order to put the shackles on their faster team mates, rather than an issue with the sport itself, which in general does not pander to said drivers.

 

3.) If DRS was such an easy guaranteed pass, how come it took Hamilton so many laps to make it past Russell? Wouldn't he just have breezed past immediately if it was so advantageous? They actually shortened the DRS zone this year by about 75m to make sure that it isn't too powerful, (and the race showed that they got it about right as we did see some good battling going on through the corners with various drivers). This seems like you have an issue with the occasions that they get it wrong with the DRS zones, rather than an issue in general with the sport itself trying to make DRS passes too easy; as actually this Mexico example shows that they are trying to make the DRS strength much fairer and more even in general, but they need time and sample sizes to learn and adjust to get the zones the right length, but at least they are clearly willing to do that.



#38 messy

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 21:10

I began watching F1 in the mid/late 1990s as a kid, so I’m pre-programmed to adore everything about that era. Screaming V10 engines, Murray and Martin, vivid liveries, unreliability, drivers who weren’t all social media obsessive clones, no DRS, cars that visibly moved around on a knife-edge, racing in the rain, refueling, tyre wars, etc etc etc. Certainly in those days there wasn’t anything artificial to make the racing better, but then on that, you got races like the 1999 Spanish, Hungarian, Belgian Grands Prix. Nothing happened. Literally sod all. They got round turn one, then they trundled round for an hour and a half and aside from a BAR retiring here and there, absolutely nothing happened. And that happened a lot in those days. Unreliability was the only thing, but in that, how many times did you reach two thirds distance in a race and there were 8 or 9 cars left, and they were all circulating separately with no battles anywhere to be seen. What’s good about F1 in its current form is that there’s always something happening and yes DRS is controversial to a ‘purist’ but it achieves its aim, there are no completely hopeless teams and they’re all within a second or so, the drivers are all of a certain level due to the superlicence system, there’s far more access to everything - the teams, the drivers, the key characters, the storylines, F2 is about a hundred times more entertaining than F3000 ever was and is far more accessible with all the junior races live, it’s an entertainment product but it’s still ‘pure’ enough to accept when a team like Red Bull steals a massive technical advantage without artificially closing things up and penalizing success, the cars are back to slick tyres, wide, futuristic, exciting….its not the F1 I hold so dear from those early days but all in all I think it’s probably better.

#39 pdac

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 22:38

People in the UK watch cricket and snooker - we're fine with nothing happening for hours and hours.



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#40 917k

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 22:48

I don't think the people who are running the show think of it as anything more than a show with which to make money.

 

I am sure the drivers and mechanics/engineers think of it as racing or at least as competition.

 

It's heart has been ripped out by Liberty/FOM greed and instead of the natural evolution of what has for decades been a sport which was also big business has been moved to a pure closed shop business model. Which still utterly disgusts me. 

Ecclestone..lol



#41 PrinceBira

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 22:51

People in the UK watch cricket and snooker - we're fine with nothing happening for hours and hours.


Whats’s the global coverage for those two?

#42 pdac

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 22:58

Whats’s the global coverage for those two?

 

Cricket is pretty global.



#43 Albertino

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 23:28

I'm usually Mr. Rose Tinted Glasses but I don't think F1 has changed all that much. Do we really want Rosberg intentionally causing a yellow at Monaco or Schumacher parking at Rascase or countless other champions bending the law? I think Verstappen's penalties were harsh but he operated in the rules (going ahead at the Apex). The 10s was to counter react Austin (which is wrong IMO). My only complaint is not enough gravel traps and cars that are physically too large (maybe just too long).

 

We've had a brilliant season. If we can get rid of the bottom 5 or 6 drivers we'd be in for a treat.


Edited by Albertino, 29 October 2024 - 23:29.


#44 Gravelngrass

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 01:19

1.) Do the stewards normally order a car to give up position? Outside of the starting grid negotiations from Masi in Saudi Arabia 2021, I don't remember too many other times where they did this. The swapping position tactic is something that the teams themselves can choose to do, in order to avoid the stewards getting involved, and the stewards are happy to let the teams police things in the first instance so that they have to step in less often. If the teams choose not to swap positions, and the stewards disagree with the order of the drivers as the result of a particular incident, they then penalise the one that unfairly gained via a time penalty. This seems like an issue you have with the teams not self-policing in the first instance and ruining the fight between Lando and Max, rather than a problem with the general rules.

2.) Yeah, Sainz can whinge and try to hope his team hold Leclerc back, but it didn't appear that Ferrari actually listened to him, and that is all that matters. In the end Sainz was just plain faster, (as if Leclerc could have gone faster but was told to pace himself, he would have paced himself to stay clear of Norris). So Leclerc was going as fast as he could, which means he wasn't asked to not compete for the win by his team, meaning that the whinging fell on death ears, and you actually got your wish. This seems like an issue you have with particular drivers that whinge and try to get team orders to happen in order to put the shackles on their faster team mates, rather than an issue with the sport itself, which in general does not pander to said drivers.

3.) If DRS was such an easy guaranteed pass, how come it took Hamilton so many laps to make it past Russell? Wouldn't he just have breezed past immediately if it was so advantageous? They actually shortened the DRS zone this year by about 75m to make sure that it isn't too powerful, (and the race showed that they got it about right as we did see some good battling going on through the corners with various drivers). This seems like you have an issue with the occasions that they get it wrong with the DRS zones, rather than an issue in general with the sport itself trying to make DRS passes too easy; as actually this Mexico example shows that they are trying to make the DRS strength much fairer and more even in general, but they need time and sample sizes to learn and adjust to get the zones the right length, but at least they are clearly willing to do that.



1. I think you may have misunderstood. Independently from a situation where a team tells a driver to give a position back, why not make giving the position back the “standard” penalty instead of 5 seconds? That way you leave more probability of the fight continuing.

2. Even though, yeah, of course I’m pissed at whiners, it’s the whole way of thinking behind that whining that kills me. It means they are conserving something and playing a team game, not trying to race.

3. Yeah, it did take him a while but then when the pass happened it was so unavoidable that all hopes of some racing were crushed in the space of a straight. People seem to be fine with DRS. For perspective, let’s imagine it happened in the last race of the season between positions 1 and 2 in the race and the championship, winner decides the WDC. Would you be happy if that was an on track fight killed by DRS?

#45 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 02:24

https://www.motorspo...nelli/10668255/

It’s about money!

#46 Gravelngrass

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 02:58

It would be interesting what the real Kimi would think of someone "managing his personal wardrobe" lol. 

 

"The Ferrari-bound World Champion redefined the relationship between fashion and Formula 1 throughout his lengthy tenure at Mercedes." Between fashion and hamburger franchises and video games I'd say...



#47 Boxerevo

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 03:57

I am watching Moto GP again and i can only say that it is another level of thrill.

 

But maybe it is what it is and Motos are just a superior spectacle to watch racing wise.

 

Every lap you are guessing... yeah this guy is not gonna handle this line and will fall but he doesn't fall until he fall or not fall.

 

They are nuts and i really think i couldn't even in dreams do what Marquez does for example.

 

I like formula 1 more when we have two digging it out since the start like (2007/2008/2017/2018) or we have something like 2010 that the fastest car have unreliability. 2012 was very cool too.

 

I am being very sincere, purely as a fan of formula 1 and not Lewis fan, 2010 was the coolest season from the start to the end i saw as a fan of Formula 1, a Seb championship.

 

And i played a lot of Formula 1 2010 codemasters. :clap:


Edited by Boxerevo, 30 October 2024 - 05:25.


#48 absinthedude

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 09:28

Cricket is pretty global.

 

The point being that competitive sport doesn't need to be whizz-bang-full on excitement every minute. Anyone who can follow a cricket match can easily follow a 90 minute grand prix race even if it's not wall to wall artificially sweetened action. 



#49 7MGTEsup

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 13:04

The point being that competitive sport doesn't need to be whizz-bang-full on excitement every minute. Anyone who can follow a cricket match can easily follow a 90 minute grand prix race even if it's not wall to wall artificially sweetened action. 

 

I think there in lies the problem. It seems people have become acustomed to non stop action in all things entertainment. I see it with my 14 year old daughter when we watch a film form the 80's or 90's she always says they are too slow at the start.



#50 F1matt

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 14:18

The point being that competitive sport doesn't need to be whizz-bang-full on excitement every minute. Anyone who can follow a cricket match can easily follow a 90 minute grand prix race even if it's not wall to wall artificially sweetened action. 

 

 

I think there in lies the problem. It seems people have become acustomed to non stop action in all things entertainment. I see it with my 14 year old daughter when we watch a film form the 80's or 90's she always says they are too slow at the start.

 

 

 

This applies to many sports, it isn't unusual for a football match to end after 0-0 after 90 minutes, it doesn't mean it has been a boring game. F1 under Liberty have tried to adopt the WWE approach, constant action, constant tension off the track, and fake rivalries. No sport needs this, if people are genuine fans, which is a separate issue right now for the sport with drive to survive, then the WWE approach isn't needed or really wanted.