Nissan and the number 23
#1
Posted 29 October 2024 - 12:25
The Skyline that contested the 1988 Donington 1 Hour Endurance Race in the hands of Win Percy and Allan Grice was #23.
The late Keith Odor, Anthony Reid and Laurent Aiello were #23 during their respective stints at Nissan.
Is (or was) that number significant to Nissan in some or another?
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#2
Posted 29 October 2024 - 12:33
Simple, the number 2 is pronounced "NI" in Japanese, and the number 3 is pronounced "SAN", so "NISSAN". I thought that was quite widely known.
#3
Posted 29 October 2024 - 12:45
Simple, the number 2 is pronounced "NI" in Japanese, and the number 3 is pronounced "SAN", so "NISSAN". I thought that was quite widely known.
Not to me.
#4
Posted 29 October 2024 - 12:58
Yes, but why did they have the name Nissan in the first place?
It's because they wanted something that sounded like 23 as they are Illuminati.
#5
Posted 29 October 2024 - 13:16
Yes, but why did they have the name Nissan in the first place?
It's because they wanted something that sounded like 23 as they are Illuminati.
Don't think I've ever driven a Nissan, but from what I've been told by those who have, I don't think there's anything exceptionally enlightening about most of them. I doubt that anyone here is interested in an explanation, but the name Nissan is an abbreviation of the Tokyo Stock Exchange tag for the holding company Nihon Sangyo, which was founded in 1928, their first offerings were licence made copies of the Austin Seven. I have driven one of those, and they aren't particularly enlightening either.
#6
Posted 29 October 2024 - 13:23
Simple, the number 2 is pronounced "NI" in Japanese, and the number 3 is pronounced "SAN", so "NISSAN". I thought that was quite widely known.
I'd agree: it's a given in sports car racing since at least the 1980s. Even my kids used to shout "ichi - ni - san" every time they saw a Nissan.
#7
Posted 29 October 2024 - 14:00
Don't think I've ever driven a Nissan, but from what I've been told by those who have, I don't think there's anything exceptionally enlightening about most of them
Having owned or had use of a 350Z and an Almera at various times, I would say yes and no. Or no and yes.
#8
Posted 29 October 2024 - 14:08
Had the loan of a Nissan Micra coming up to 20 or more years ago; different class from your small euto-boxes, reversing camera, excellent sound systen, air-con, no rattles and precise handling. 20 or more years before that, in Canada, my brother lent me his Nissan/Datsun 240Z, a big step up from your MGB/Cs; Alpines, Alfa-Romeo Duettos etc. My daughter would never go out in my Imprezza because it had steel wheels, telling her that it worried me not as from where I sat I couldn't see them cut no ice. Some of us buy cars to see out of them, not to be seen in them...
I recall in 1963, at Delamare Road, when the 16 y.o. apprentice turned up on his Honda 125, how the old hands all laughed. They weren't even impressed when he demonstrated the faultless electric start while another mechanic in the car park was fruitlessly attempting to kick his Ariel into life. Move on 12 months and not one drip of oil had escaped the Honda's crankcase, not 1 minute's downtime in the previous 12 months - Still there were those who saw not the passing of an era...
Edited by Bloggsworth, 29 October 2024 - 14:10.
#9
Posted 29 October 2024 - 15:32
Not to me.
That makes two of us.
#10
Posted 29 October 2024 - 15:49
That makes two of us.
Glad to know I'm not alone.
#11
Posted 29 October 2024 - 17:00
I recall in 1963, at Delamare Road, when the 16 y.o. apprentice turned up on his Honda 125, how the old hands all laughed. They weren't even impressed when he demonstrated the faultless electric start while another mechanic in the car park was fruitlessly attempting to kick his Ariel into life. Move on 12 months and not one drip of oil had escaped the Honda's crankcase, not 1 minute's downtime in the previous 12 months - Still there were those who saw not the passing of an era...
Ah yes, that passing of an era. I was still at school and our King Rocker had his prized Triumph Bonneville 650. Another lad turned up with a Honda 250. General sneers all round, but I noticed with a shock that it was redlined at 10,000rpm and wondered. The two of them turned out of the school gate together, Oliver opened the Honda up and left the British motorcycle industry in his dust.
#12
Posted 29 October 2024 - 18:36
Not to me.
That makes two of us.
Me three.
I've owned a few Nissans and even a Datsun pickup. My 240SX was a fun car - RWD, manual 5-speed, LOW insurance rates due to the 4 cyl.
#13
Posted 29 October 2024 - 18:51
I recall in 1963, at Delamare Road, when the 16 y.o. apprentice turned up on his Honda 125, how the old hands all laughed. They weren't even impressed when he demonstrated the faultless electric start while another mechanic in the car park was fruitlessly attempting to kick his Ariel into life. Move on 12 months and not one drip of oil had escaped the Honda's crankcase, not 1 minute's downtime in the previous 12 months - Still there were those who saw not the passing of an era...
Ah yes, that passing of an era. I was still at school and our King Rocker had his prized Triumph Bonneville 650. Another lad turned up with a Honda 250. General sneers all round, but I noticed with a shock that it was redlined at 10,000rpm and wondered. The two of them turned out of the school gate together, Oliver opened the Honda up and left the British motorcycle industry in his dust.
Same thing happened in my neighborhood, the local Harley Sportster rider got smoked - repeatedly - by the just-out-of-high-school kid who recently bought a Suzuki X6 Hustler. It was probably 1965 or '66. The Suzuki's engine was 250cc, less than 33% of the Sportster's displacement. I remember Sportster Guy saying "Yeah, well, how many OLDER Jap bikes do you see around? Huh?"
#14
Posted 30 October 2024 - 04:24
Speaking of Jap bikes - this is one you don't see too often. My brother and I were at the Richmond Sprints (Tassy) in maybe 1969. Ross Buchanan was quickest in his 327 Chev Corvette at about 14.5 secs (the road was just a crappy local country one so no drag strip by any stretch).
This bloke just rocked up on his Yamaha RD350, pootled off the line then gave it some welly in what seemed a very sedate way then clocked a low 14 seconds! We were all gobsmacked.... The Mk2 Jag in the garage is the ex Bob Jane, ex Carosi converted to road use.
#15
Posted 30 October 2024 - 11:05
....the name Nissan is an abbreviation of the Tokyo Stock Exchange tag for the holding company Nihon Sangyo, which was founded in 1928, their first offerings were licence made copies of the Austin Seven.
The "licence made copies of the Austin Seven" story has been written in many English language books over the years, and subsequently quoted ad nauseam, but it is not true. Nissan never had any such arrangement with Austin.
Austin imported a Datsun type 14 to the UK in order to investigate whether it had infringed any of Austin's patents or copyrights, but no action resulted. Certainly Nissan had been 'inspired' by the Seven, but Japanese automotive journalists have established that a French car - the Benjamin - was a more direct influence. In any case, Nissan's 'Datsun' branded products of that period were simply similar answers to similar questions...
By the way, the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu still own and display that Austin-imported Datsun Type 14.
The *real* Austin-Nissan tie up came postwar, with Nissan assembling CKD kits of Austin product in an agreement which started in 1952. The plan was that Nissan would gradually ramp-up local content, that point of a '100% Nissan Austin' was reached ahead of schedule in late 1956. Nissan products - especially their engines - carried English DNA well into the 1960s.
Edited by PZR, 30 October 2024 - 14:42.
#16
Posted 30 October 2024 - 13:20
Me four — and we owned only Datsuns and Nissans from 1982 to 1997.Me three.
I've owned a few Nissans and even a Datsun pickup. My 240SX was a fun car - RWD, manual 5-speed, LOW insurance rates due to the 4 cyl.
That only stopped when we totaled our wonderful, ‘92 Nissan Stanza SE against a half-matching-sized boulder blocking the road — a trouble-free car that once showed 151 on the speedometer in the Mojave Desert. That car even outdid its own factory lineup and became an Infiniti J20 the next model year.
Anyone thinking them a boring car company clearly never saw the BRE or Bob Sharp Datsuns race, not to mention the world-dominating GTP cars.
Not sure about some of Y’all, but I had an epiphany at about 12 when I realized I clearly did not know everything.
#17
Posted 30 October 2024 - 13:51
Simple, the number 2 is pronounced "NI" in Japanese, and the number 3 is pronounced "SAN", so "NISSAN". I thought that was quite widely known.
Every day is a school day.
#18
Posted 31 October 2024 - 02:47
The "licence made copies of the Austin Seven" story has been written in many English language books over the years, and subsequently quoted ad nauseam, but it is not true. Nissan never had any such arrangement with Austin.
Austin imported a Datsun type 14 to the UK in order to investigate whether it had infringed any of Austin's patents or copyrights, but no action resulted. Certainly Nissan had been 'inspired' by the Seven, but Japanese automotive journalists have established that a French car - the Benjamin - was a more direct influence. In any case, Nissan's 'Datsun' branded products of that period were simply similar answers to similar questions...
By the way, the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu still own and display that Austin-imported Datsun Type 14.
The *real* Austin-Nissan tie up came postwar, with Nissan assembling CKD kits of Austin product in an agreement which started in 1952. The plan was that Nissan would gradually ramp-up local content, that point of a '100% Nissan Austin' was reached ahead of schedule in late 1956. Nissan products - especially their engines - carried English DNA well into the 1960s.
Nissan A7s were mirror image and updated Austins.
Nissan A10 12 14 15 were much improved A series BMC engines.
L1600 1800 2litre and 6 cyl variants were engines cloned on Benz OHC engines
#19
Posted 31 October 2024 - 02:56
As a car dealer I have owned numerous Datsun/ Nissan products. Another word for rust, and that in Adelaide South Oz the driest state in the driest continent.
Many were rusty at two years old. Many rusted out in 5 years. Yes there is still very few good ones left.
I see old Holdens and Fords daily some even everyday transport. The number of similar aged Jap cars is very few Euro cars even less [we started with a lot less of them]
Yet the local offerings we were told were inferior!
So now the public has a choice of expensive to repair Euro cars, Japanese cars, Korean cars or now China cars. Many China cars are already recycled as scrap metal, Euro cars all waiting on parts and Korea cars are,,, well,, ok. Just. Jap cars ere generally the best these days.
And yes I drive a Landcruiser, or a Falcon traytop.Which is a LOT better than any import traytop that ride loike drays and are generally noisy with their toy diesel engines.
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#20
Posted 31 October 2024 - 06:51
Veering OT , but my first drive of Datsun 120 Y in about 1974 was a revelation, Dad's joke of a Dolomite was in the garage getting another new gearbox (one of five replaced under warranty. Yes, five) and the 120Y was his wheels for a week. Everything worked - the synchro was unbeatable , the gearchange fingertip light ,the clutch was sweet and light , the heater worked , the back window demister and radio were standard, it started first time, never overheated, never went on 3 cylinders in the rain - everything worked. It was no Alfa to drive but unlike every car I had known until then it felt unbreakable and superbly made . I was not surprised that they sold as many as they could . The fact that BMC /BL were killed off by cars like this triggered no tears in our house - they had it coming
#21
Posted 31 October 2024 - 08:57
Veering OT , but my first drive of Datsun 120 Y in about 1974 was a revelation, Dad's joke of a Dolomite was in the garage getting another new gearbox (one of five replaced under warranty. Yes, five) and the 120Y was his wheels for a week. Everything worked - the synchro was unbeatable , the gearchange fingertip light ,the clutch was sweet and light , the heater worked , the back window demister and radio were standard, it started first time, never overheated, never went on 3 cylinders in the rain - everything worked. It was no Alfa to drive but unlike every car I had known until then it felt unbreakable and superbly made . I was not surprised that they sold as many as they could . The fact that BMC /BL were killed off by cars like this triggered no tears in our house - they had it coming
BMC beaten by recyled BMC!
120Yucks were an ugly little cars that girls liked. I guess reliable enough but no redeeming features otherwise!
#22
Posted 31 October 2024 - 10:52
When Japanese cars first started to make an impact on the UK market, it was because they were good value and came well-equipped. Yes, they rusted ferociously, even by the poor standards of the time, as bad as Italian cars, but the mechanicals were bullet proof. Most were still running like sewing machines as they were scrapped for being rusty. They came with rock hard tyres that had poor grip, due to a belief by Japanese buyers that the tyres should last the life time of the car.
But they soon kick-started the European car industry into pulling it socks up although once again, the UK domestic manufacturers would fail to survive, as their motor bike predecessors had also failed. And the Japanese got on top of rusting an are now fully competitive - UK buyers see a Lexus as every bit as good as a BMW or Merc, and a Nissan or Toyota is comparable to e Ford or a Peugeot or a VW.
One of the turning points came when UK mini-cab drivers turned almost en masse to the Nissan Primera as their weapon of choice. Later they moved on the Skoda products, but that is another story.
#23
Posted 31 October 2024 - 11:13
UK buyers see a Lexus as every bit as good as a BMW or Merc
#24
Posted 31 October 2024 - 11:18
Nissan A7s were mirror image and updated Austins.
Nissan A10 12 14 15 were much improved A series BMC engines.
L1600 1800 2litre and 6 cyl variants were engines cloned on Benz OHC engines
I don't understand the "Nissan A7s were mirror image and updated Austins" comment. Nissan never made anything called an 'A7' and - as mentioned up-thread - Austin themselves tacitly acknowledged that the Datsun type 14 was not a 'copy' of the Austin 7, either in whole or in part. In spirit, certainly. Something it had in common with many light cars of the period. Getting people mobile.
Nissan A10, 12, 14 & 15 were indeed much improved on the BMC A series engines on which their architecture was initially based, but the improvements that Nissan made were typical of their approach. They rarely made a 'clone' of anything without incorporating their own ideas (EG Hitachi's licensing of the SU carburettor design and their immediate evolutionary updates) and they had the benefit of excellent brand new Japanese tooling and machinery on which to make it, unlike the British companies.
The "cloned Benz OHC engines" thing is also oft-quoted, but doesn't stand up to much in the way of scrutiny. Yes, some of the cam and valvetrain layout of the Prince G7 OHC six (debuted late 1963) was very similar to that of the MB M180, but the architecture of the inlet and exhaust is reversed to suit Japan's RHD market. Prince did not merge with Nissan until 1966. Nissan's first OHC engine was the L20 six of 1964 and it too was 'influenced' by the cam and valvetrain of the MB M180, but is far from a "clone". Nissan added 4cyl versions to the 'L-gata' engine lineup in 1966 and re-designed the L20 six to make a 'modular' range of fours and sixes which could share parts and production tooling, taking advantage of new low pressure diecasting facilities that were being introduced in its factories. Wikipedia gives us a bowdlerised version of all this, repeating the "licensed from Mercedes" story. I can't remember ever seeing a mass market manufacturer be accused of "copying"/"cloning" a pushrod OHV design, but OHC seems to get a lot of scrutiny. Especially if the company is from over there...
Once again, the accusation of blatant 'copying'/'cloning' is not really justified. Similar answers to similar engineering challenges and quite a lot in the way of hat-tipping to established masters of the craft, as is the Japanese way.
#25
Posted 31 October 2024 - 11:31
Yes, they rusted ferociously, even by the poor standards of the time, as bad as Italian cars, but the mechanicals were bullet proof. Most were still running like sewing machines as they were scrapped for being rusty. They came with rock hard tyres that had poor grip, due to a belief by Japanese buyers that the tyres should last the life time of the car.
A good two months on a ship - often preceded by sitting for a few weeks sitting on a dockside - gave them a pretty thorough salty air bath before they even arrived. They were not generally protected inside their box sections and one winter on the UK's salted roads topped it up.
Japanese made tyres of the 60s and 70s were designed to cope with Japanese country roads as well as their new intercity 'Highways', so tended to be very durable. Friends of mine who purchased sporty new cars in Japan in the late Sixties and early Seventies immediately swapped their tyres to better (more expensive) versions and - if they could afford them - European brands. Perhaps ironically, the Japanese Dunlop tyres brought to Europe by Nissan's works rally team in the early Seventies were much prized by the European drivers. They were on the case, and catching up.
#26
Posted 31 October 2024 - 11:36
Lots of reminiscenses about the more humble/grey porridge end of Japanese road cars here, but Japan had plenty of more exciting fare too. Much of it for domestic consumption rather than export.
#27
Posted 31 October 2024 - 12:44
Re: rust-prone Japanese cars - A materials engineer friend who worked in the steel industry once said a large part of the issue had to do with the recycling processes used by the Japanese steel industry for steel which then was used in Japanese cars. That was the late 80s, so I have no idea if things have changed since.
#28
Posted 31 October 2024 - 14:21
This is a great thread, thanks WonderWoman61. I have learnt so much.
#29
Posted 31 October 2024 - 14:36
Yes, but why did they have the name Nissan in the first place?
The name "NISSAN" is a contraction of Nihon Sangyo, which means "Japan Industries" or "Japan Industrial Corporation".
#30
Posted 31 October 2024 - 14:40
Re: rust-prone Japanese cars - A materials engineer friend who worked in the steel industry once said a large part of the issue had to do with the recycling processes used by the Japanese steel industry for steel which then was used in Japanese cars. That was the late 80s, so I have no idea if things have changed since.
That's possible. I have also heard that Japan has very strict inspection requirements that make it uneconomical to keep a car more than 3-4 years. The used cars got exported and were no long a domestic market "problem", so rust protection was not a priority.
Things had to improve after American market rust fiascos, where salt is used heavily in the snow belt, forced corrosion protection to become a priority.
#31
Posted 31 October 2024 - 15:26
I have also heard that Japan has very strict inspection requirements that make it uneconomical to keep a car more than 3-4 years. The used cars got exported and were no long a domestic market "problem", so rust protection was not a priority.
It's a little bit of an over generalisation. Yes, the inspections are quite strict and costly, but there are plenty of cars and vans on the road in Japan which are more than three or four years old.
Yes, there's a big drain in Japanese used cars as a result of so many overseas buyers - particularly in SE Asia - buying them in bulk at the big commercial auctions, but its something of a chicken and egg situation. It's hard to know if the bulk export buyers came first - creating the drain, with the used car market growing to fill demand - or the Japanese used car market came first. Whatever, the demand for used exports - renowned for good condition and low mileage - certainly acts as a big plug hole down which pretty good cars, vans, trucks, buses and all sorts of other stuff gets sucked. It's good for sales of the new replacements.
#32
Posted 31 October 2024 - 15:43
Re: rust-prone Japanese cars - A materials engineer friend who worked in the steel industry once said a large part of the issue had to do with the recycling processes used by the Japanese steel industry for steel which then was used in Japanese cars. That was the late 80s, so I have no idea if things have changed since.
I'm turning out to be a bit of a naysayer on this thread (sorry) but Japanese cars - I've had/still got quite a few of them that are 50+ years old - traditionally rusted first and worst at their bare, unprotected spotwelded joints. Once moisture got into the seams and gaps it was only a short time before the dreaded made itself visible. Blocked drains in scuttles, doors and sills (owners oblivious) made it worse.
Surely if bad metallurgy/impurities were to blame the rust would manifest itself randomly in the middle of panels, under paint? They don't seem to do this.
A friend of mine who was a veteran of British car sales in the 1960s and 70s was of the opinion that many of the "bad/recycled steel" stories were made up to put people off buying Japanese cars. Japanese castings certainly didn't have the same reputation. They were renowned for their excellent metallurgy, heat treatment and high tolerance machining.
I once stripped a 1954 VW TYpe 1 back to bare metal, and its roof panel was covered in weird amoeba-like artifacts and impurities. They hadn't come through the paint, so I guess they were benign. I could easily believe that the German sheet metal of that period was not as pure as they would have liked it to be.
#33
Posted 31 October 2024 - 16:18
This is a great thread, thanks WonderWoman61. I have learnt so much.
You're welcome!
#34
Posted 31 October 2024 - 20:46
I'm turning out to be a bit of a naysayer on this thread (sorry) but Japanese cars - I've had/still got quite a few of them that are 50+ years old - traditionally rusted first and worst at their bare, unprotected spotwelded joints. Once moisture got into the seams and gaps it was only a short time before the dreaded made itself visible. Blocked drains in scuttles, doors and sills (owners oblivious) made it worse.
Surely if bad metallurgy/impurities were to blame the rust would manifest itself randomly in the middle of panels, under paint? They don't seem to do this.
A friend of mine who was a veteran of British car sales in the 1960s and 70s was of the opinion that many of the "bad/recycled steel" stories were made up to put people off buying Japanese cars. Japanese castings certainly didn't have the same reputation. They were renowned for their excellent metallurgy, heat treatment and high tolerance machining.
I once stripped a 1954 VW TYpe 1 back to bare metal, and its roof panel was covered in weird amoeba-like artifacts and impurities. They hadn't come through the paint, so I guess they were benign. I could easily believe that the German sheet metal of that period was not as pure as they would have liked it to be.
To answer your question, no, it wouldn't. The features you mention as trouble spots would be the locations rust would form first, just as you say. To speculate it might form in random locations when the more vulnerable spots are obvious does not make sense.
As for the person who opined to me about rust-prone recycled steel, he never steered me wrong over decades of shared engineering experience. I'm inclined to take his word for it, but you don't have to.
#35
Posted 31 October 2024 - 21:08
Yes, great thread thank you WonderWoman61 - really enjoying it. Here's a selection of Nissan/Datsun racing pics from Australia. Mostly from 60's, 70's but also one of Richards/ Scaife at Bathurst from 1991. The Datsun 1200 Coupe won its class at Bathurst in 1973 and the Datsun 240K came 7th outright there in 1974 - mighty effort from Doug Whiteford in the wet and Stewart McLeod.
#36
Posted 31 October 2024 - 21:57
You're welcomeYes, great thread thank you WonderWoman61 - really enjoying it. Here's a selection of Nissan/Datsun racing pics from Australia. Mostly from 60's, 70's but also one of Richards/ Scaife at Bathurst from 1991. The Datsun 1200 Coupe won its class at Bathurst in 1973 and the Datsun 240K came 7th outright there in 1974 - mighty effort from Doug Whiteford in the wet and Stewart McLeod.
#37
Posted 01 November 2024 - 01:53
It's a little bit of an over generalisation. Yes, the inspections are quite strict and costly, but there are plenty of cars and vans on the road in Japan which are more than three or four years old.
Yes, there's a big drain in Japanese used cars as a result of so many overseas buyers - particularly in SE Asia - buying them in bulk at the big commercial auctions, but its something of a chicken and egg situation. It's hard to know if the bulk export buyers came first - creating the drain, with the used car market growing to fill demand - or the Japanese used car market came first. Whatever, the demand for used exports - renowned for good condition and low mileage - certainly acts as a big plug hole down which pretty good cars, vans, trucks, buses and all sorts of other stuff gets sucked. It's good for sales of the new replacements.
In Japan the older a car gets the higher the registration costs.
Though I see quite a few You Tube clips of quite old Jap cars on Japanese roads. So maybe that has changed?
#38
Posted 01 November 2024 - 02:24
I don't understand the "Nissan A7s were mirror image and updated Austins" comment. Nissan never made anything called an 'A7' and - as mentioned up-thread - Austin themselves tacitly acknowledged that the Datsun type 14 was not a 'copy' of the Austin 7, either in whole or in part. In spirit, certainly. Something it had in common with many light cars of the period. Getting people mobile.
Nissan A10, 12, 14 & 15 were indeed much improved on the BMC A series engines on which their architecture was initially based, but the improvements that Nissan made were typical of their approach. They rarely made a 'clone' of anything without incorporating their own ideas (EG Hitachi's licensing of the SU carburettor design and their immediate evolutionary updates) and they had the benefit of excellent brand new Japanese tooling and machinery on which to make it, unlike the British companies.
The "cloned Benz OHC engines" thing is also oft-quoted, but doesn't stand up to much in the way of scrutiny. Yes, some of the cam and valvetrain layout of the Prince G7 OHC six (debuted late 1963) was very similar to that of the MB M180, but the architecture of the inlet and exhaust is reversed to suit Japan's RHD market. Prince did not merge with Nissan until 1966. Nissan's first OHC engine was the L20 six of 1964 and it too was 'influenced' by the cam and valvetrain of the MB M180, but is far from a "clone". Nissan added 4cyl versions to the 'L-gata' engine lineup in 1966 and re-designed the L20 six to make a 'modular' range of fours and sixes which could share parts and production tooling, taking advantage of new low pressure diecasting facilities that were being introduced in its factories. Wikipedia gives us a bowdlerised version of all this, repeating the "licensed from Mercedes" story. I can't remember ever seeing a mass market manufacturer be accused of "copying"/"cloning" a pushrod OHV design, but OHC seems to get a lot of scrutiny. Especially if the company is from over there...
Once again, the accusation of blatant 'copying'/'cloning' is not really justified. Similar answers to similar engineering challenges and quite a lot in the way of hat-tipping to established masters of the craft, as is the Japanese way.
Again the Nissan clone of the Seven engine was mirror image. Everything reversed.
L series Nissans are clones of Benz engines. Look at them intact or in pieces. All similar.
The Prince engines and the original Fairlady 4 engines are no doubt clones of some other engine but share little with the L series engine.
The Benz engine came in 4 and 6 cyl versions as well.
The original Landcruiser pushrod 6 was a Chevy 6 clone.
A 1500 Isuzu Bellet engine is a clone of a Hillman, evidently some parts interchange.
There is many others as well. Including some driveline/ transmission components.
The Hitachi clone of a CD or SU carb is very well known. What came first? I believe the SU.
I keep getting adds for automotive components on my internet. A variety of Holley, Carter, Rochester clones. Are they any good? I have stripped two, one a 350 Holley clone that it seems worked ok after I rebuilt it, cleaned crap and corrosion out. It used all Holley gaskets. The other was a 4150 double pump. It too was dirty but not very old like the 350 was. The metering blocks were very poor as was the power valve and acc pumps. I stripped it and decided this will never work any good and gave it back to the customer. Another repairer I know has stripped another 850 Holley clone and evidently it was ok. Not great but better rebuilt using all Holley service parts.
I have heard of a Quadrajet clone being bolted straight on and the car ran better than the old leaky one. Longevity will be the next issue
I have seen but not seen running 45 DCOE Weber clones also. I know the engine runs but how well I dont know. Has anyone any experience with them?
As an aside I recently bought an 850 Edelbrock 4150 clone. Not cheap but seems well finished and I expect it will be a good thing. Annular discharge that makes driveability. Lots of air bleeds, bigger fuel bowls with slosh tubes, small wedged floatsetc. Generally parts that you only get in a XP Holley which is $500 more.
Holley gaskets go on but some fuel holes are half a hole out so I guess I need to buy service parts for when I get the car going again.
Best race carb I ever owned was an 830 Holley annular. On my 355 Chev race engine. It was far more driveable than the 750dp it replaced and had 4-5 mph on the straights as well. But Holley for some reason dont make them anymore.
I will now have a 750 HP for sale.
#39
Posted 01 November 2024 - 09:31
To answer your question, no, it wouldn't. The features you mention as trouble spots would be the locations rust would form first, just as you say. To speculate it might form in random locations when the more vulnerable spots are obvious does not make sense.
As for the person who opined to me about rust-prone recycled steel, he never steered me wrong over decades of shared engineering experience. I'm inclined to take his word for it, but you don't have to.
So if they had used 'better'/'purer'/'non-recycled'/'higher grade' steel, Japanese cars would not have rusted so quickly and so intensely? The fact that they were spotwelding unprotected steel into box sections which trapped moisture, vulnerable to blocked drainage, given a salty air bath for several weeks and then topped up with winter road salt was secondary?
I own a couple of late 1960s/early 1970s cars that were shipped - when new - to 'dry' states in the US. They spent 40+ years there and were then imported to the UK. Their unibodies are - effectively - rust free in comparison with equivalents that were shipped to Europe as new cars. The hot, dry conditions mitigated the shortcomings in construction and protection. Suitability of the sheet steel used is secondary in my opinion.
Meanwhile, elsewhere... https://forums.autos...d-soviet-steel/
Edited by PZR, 01 November 2024 - 09:32.
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#40
Posted 01 November 2024 - 10:38
Again the Nissan clone of the Seven engine was mirror image. Everything reversed.
L series Nissans are clones of Benz engines. Look at them intact or in pieces. All similar.
The Prince engines and the original Fairlady 4 engines are no doubt clones of some other engine but share little with the L series engine.
The Benz engine came in 4 and 6 cyl versions as well.
The original Landcruiser pushrod 6 was a Chevy 6 clone.
A 1500 Isuzu Bellet engine is a clone of a Hillman, evidently some parts interchange.
There is many others as well. Including some driveline/ transmission components.
The Hitachi clone of a CD or SU carb is very well known. What came first? I believe the SU.
The American Austin (subsequently Bantam) engine was a mirror-image of the original A7 engine, wasn't it? Whatever, I think it's a bit harsh to talk about "clones" with respect to fairly simple sidevalve engines of the period. More about common practice and similar reference points, surely?
Again Nissan OHC engines as "clones" of Benz engines? They are quite different internally. I'd expect a true 'clone' to have identical parts that can be swapped one between the other. Not possible here. Exaggeration. We might as well say that Hawksmoor and Sir Christopher Wren were "cloning" classical architecture.
"The Prince engines and the original Fairlady 4 engines are no doubt clones of some other engine..." Ah yes. They must be. (eye roll) "...but share little with the L series engine." Yes, and that's the point. Elsewhere (EG Wikipedia) you'll see the Prince G7 cited as a licensed 'copy' of the MB M180 (it wasn't) and also part of Nissan's 'L-gata' DNA (it isn't). The Fairlady Roadster E, G and R-series engines were derived from the Nissan-Austin partnership I mentioned up-thread and their DNA is acknowledged. Proudly so. The Nissan U20 OHC engine of the SR/SRL Roadsters came after the Nissan-Prince merger of 1966 and is documented as benefiting from the input of the excellent engineers at Prince who were now under Nissan's wing.
Isuzu made Hillmans from CKD kits in an arrangement similar to the Nissan-Austin tie-up and the Bellett's engine was a product of that. This is well known. Japanese manufacturers were still getting back on their feet in the late 1950s - greatly assisted and encouraged by the Marshall Plan and SCAP - and such tie-ups were advantageous to both parties. I'm wary of people who cite such arrangements as "copying" or "cloning". Its a little more nuanced than that.
"The Hitachi clone of a CD or SU carb is very well known. What came first? I believe the SU." As - again - mentioned up-thread, Hitachi licensed the SU patents (they didn't pinch them) and immediately made their own modifications/rolling improvements and evolutions. Of course - of course! - the SU came first. That's the whole point.
So, by the same measure, Australia is a "clone" of 1950s England. Am I doing this right? I am of course writing this whilst sipping tea from a blue and white porcelain Wedgewood cup and keeping a straight face. All this can get a bit silly can't it? We all end up dancing on the head of a pin.
Meh. Here, have a GRX with added hairdryers:
#41
Posted 01 November 2024 - 11:31
These engines look similar to the BMC b-series, and I have read on various forums of people putting MGB manifolds straight onto old Datsun pickups, and someone fitting the Datsun camshaft into an MG engine.
I have 6 various BMC b-series engines, and a gasket set for a nissan J15,J16.
Sure enough the nissan head gasket lines up with the BMC cylinder head stud holes and bore spacing, and the inlet/ex gasket also lines up.
But the valve cover is held on by 6 bolts, not the 2 bolts used by BMC.
So, not an exact copy, and there are probably other differences
These differences may be well be attempts to fix oil leaks etc.
If you can believe the internet, this engine may have been used by nissan from late 1960s to early 1980s in cars & pickups , and possibly into the 1990s in nissan & komatsu forklifts.
As for the comments regarding rust , yes they they did rust in the early days, but so did most manufacturers, and if a panel like a door rusted out, when you got a replacement door, it actually fitted the car without hours of fettling with hammers & pieces of wood etc.
Panel fit was a lot better on Japanese cars, compared to some (not all) euro & British manufacturers