109 replies to this topic

[jacdaniel]

There’s been a lot of talk about Max lately and while we don’t need another thread to discuss penalties etc, I found it quite interesting that Charles was much more supportive of Max and basically said they’d all do the same in his position.

In F1, it’s actually quite rare to see someone in a slower car fighting for a title. It’s probably Maxs talent that even puts him in these positions. (2021 and 2024) But I’m not sure we’ve really seen others in this position.

But do you agree with Charles? I’ve certainly seen enough glimpses over the years to suggest that Charles, Russell, Alonso and Lewis at least would battle as hard in a similar situation.

Winning ugly is something that happens in all sports. It’s actually sad for the sport that there’s been so few title battles in the last decade or so.

I think it’s only natural that if the cost cap works and the field is closer, the fighting on track will be harder.

[PrinceBira]

Add a poll!

[cjm321190]

Yes. The great drivers would battle hard.

Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso, piquets,

Lando is too nice in the interviews after.

Anyone else would walk up to max. Finger in chest, do not F ing pull that **** with me again else i will not cede and you will crash.

Max knows Lando will always cede and move out of the way.

Do it once and Max thinks twice. You see it from the others oh it is max coming through or out of position. Lets just let him go do not fight.

Basically the modern drivers are too soft which in turn exaggerates Max’s aggression.

We all want hard racing but the others need to have the balls to say on camera Max is an idiot.

Lando is finding out fast the difference between a guy who wins 3-10 races in his career and a champion. Is he a very fast driver or WDC. What if this is his last chance. No guarantees for 2026.

[Sash1]

Thinking back of Prost and Senna taking eachother out to secure the titles......

Schumacher picking the right side of the track with a broken car to take Hill out.
Schumacher deliberately hitting Villeneuve to try to force a DNF (Schumacher lost all his points that season).

[F1matt]

Max is in a unique position where he treats F1 like a sport that he clearly loves, most of the other drivers are there for likes, to be popular, and always say the right thing. Max is still a boxer white the majority of them are WWE wrestlers. 

[jacdaniel]

We even heard Carlos Sainz last week say that he had less to lose than those around him. What do you think he meant by that?

Of course he meant that it gave him more license to be aggressive with Max and Lando.

They all have this mindset.

[PayasYouRace]

Max is in a unique position where he treats F1 like a sport that he clearly loves, most of the other drivers are there for likes, to be popular, and always say the right thing. Max is still a boxer white the majority of them are WWE wrestlers.

What a load of BS.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Max is in a unique position where he treats F1 like a sport that he clearly loves, most of the other drivers are there for likes, to be popular, and always say the right thing. Max is still a boxer white the majority of them are WWE wrestlers. 

 

Yeah, that's a bit of an odd take.

[jacdaniel]

I think there will ultimately come a day where the roles are reversed. It will be Max with a fast car and somebody else fighting hard to keep him behind at all costs

[H0R]

In regards to motor racing I was socialized in the sixties and seventies so I still consider it a contactless sport. If Clark, Gurney or Stewart would  have collided with another car they would have risked their opponent's and their own lives. So they didn't.

Senna and Piquet were the first ones to no longer subscribe to this. Hence I can never call them or similar drivers from Schumacher to Vertappen true greats of the sport. Quite the contary to be honest, I simply do not have any respect for them. Scumbags one like the other.

Edited by H0R, 01 November 2024 - 10:31.

[Benchulo]

Fernando has shown how to fight for a WDC hard but fair in a slower car. That requires respect to fellow drivers. Unfortunately Verstappen does not have that, IMO.

[Gareth]

A number of the big names of the past have shown they absolutely would do the same: Prost, Senna, Schumacher.

 

I think Hamilton has already shown he wouldn't - he was in this circumstance (slower car vs WDC rival) and didn't attempt to drive his rival off the road as he overtook him to take the WDC. Maybe early career "hungrier" Hamilton is a bit different to late career Hamilton in this regard, though.

 

I'm sure a lot of the current grid would like to think they would, but I'm not sure they have the skills to do it subtly enough to get away with it. Rosberg, for example, showed he wanted to do it but always did it so clumsily (Hockenheim vs Max, Austria vs Hamilton) that he got dinged for it.

 

Ultimately it's on the FIA to make this not a viable strategy by penalising appropriately when it's done.

[7MGTEsup]

 

I think Hamilton has already shown he wouldn't - he was in this circumstance (slower car vs WDC rival) and didn't attempt to drive his rival off the road as he overtook him to take the WDC. 

 

 

When was this?

[Collombin]

If Clark, Gurney or Stewart would have collided with another car they would have risked their opponent's and their own lives. So they didn't

This is the key point. Even if some of them were not "gentlemen" in real life, when behind the wheel they couldn't afford not to be.

One particular driver (with a very sporting reputation) once took advantage of a fatal accident to win a Grand Prix by having a better understanding of the red flag rules (ie that they were only "advisory" until the finish line), and overtook his unsuspecting rival at the last. So the will to win and ruthlessness has probably always been there, but the risks of banging wheels, forcing drivers off etc was just way too dangerous to even contemplate.

Edited by Collombin, 01 November 2024 - 10:56.

[macjim]

All drivers will fight hard, but Max appears to be in Schumachers mold  https://www.youtube....h?v=QXFWD2Y19zg

 

Everyone wants hard but fair racing.

 

When people talk about Michael, it's "He's a 7 time WDC, but there is always the line - he was a dirty driver"

 

I'm pretty sure Michael regretted some of his moves he did over the years, I do recall JA discussing it how he'd like to take back some of those moves.

 

We've seen Lewis push Nico around, but I don't recall seeing Alonso/Button/Vettel resorting to being Gandalf -  "You shall not Pass"

Edited by macjim, 01 November 2024 - 11:11.

[ANF]

Max knows Lando will always cede and move out of the way.

Do it once and Max thinks twice. You see it from the others oh it is max coming through or out of position. Lets just let him go do not fight.

Norris fought Verstappen pretty hard in Mexico. He refused to give up the position, and that cost Verstappen two 10-second penalties and at least four championship points.

[noriaki]

Not quite sure about the "soft Lando" narrative because I don't think he would drive quite as he does if the scenario was different. Max has lost his outright racewinnibg pace, so Lando clearly believes he can still catch Verstappen if he keeps his nose clean and cards fall the right way for the remaining GPs - but another Austria scenario, where Norris retires due to the collision but Max doesn't, would end him. So he takes extra care that doesn't happen.

 

I'm pretty sure if the points were more or less equal between the two atm, there would have been at least one more crash between the two.

[absinthedude]

In regards to motor racing I was socialized in the sixties and seventies so I still consider it a contactless sport. If Clark, Gurney or Stewart would  have collided with another car they would have risked their opponent's and their own lives. So they didn't.

Senna and Piquet were the first ones to no longer subscribe to this. Hence I can never call them or similar drivers from Schumacher to Vertappen true greats of the sport. Quite the contary to be honest, I simply do not have any respect for them. Scumbags one like the other.

 

One could argue that Farina did it....but he was very much the outlier. 

 

Senna was really the first driver to regularly shove people off the track, or to say "Let me through or we collide"....as you rightly say, the generations before including those who reached F1 in the late 70s and very early 80s wouldn't have even thought of that because they raced in times when it might well mean one driver going home in a box. 

 

Senna perfected it, Michael Schumacher went further and got walloped for it. Senna's move on Prost, squeezing him towards the wall at Estoril in 1988 was shocking at the time. It would be tame today. Schumacher coming within half an inch of putting Barrichello in the wall in I think 2009 was shocking and still is. Hopefully nobody else will ever actually take out a title rival in a deciding race. 

 

We cannot turn the clock back but but we can ensure that drivers are fair. Contact is more likely in an age when injury is much less likely. But it doesn't need to be a deliberate tactic. 

[noikeee]

This whole narrative about drivers needing to be super aggressive and force a crash to earn respect from others, is one of my biggest pet peeves in motorsport.

Let's imagine in Mexico T7 Lando doesn't open up his steering and lets Max crash into him. Great! Now what. He's caused his team hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage and gained 0 points on Max on the championship, instead of the 7 points or 10 points or whatever the **** it was.

I understand there's a psychological element when battling other drivers, but this is waaaaaaaaaay overstated by fans. And I think it's absolute rubbish that drivers that are willing to put their physical integrity and their competitors' on the line, are lauded by fans. If anything I respect more these that are assertive sure, you do need an element of assertiveness, but fair.

Edited by noikeee, 01 November 2024 - 11:50.

[SamH123]

When was this?

 

Final lap in Abu Dhabi

Not many drivers would have been so fair not even considering the issue with the race directive

[1player]

Moot question at this point, because if Lando were to fight as aggressively as Max at this stage, the result would be double DNFs which is a worse result for him than Max.

There is a HUGE difference in tactics and approach required if you are leading the championship or are behind in points. You could argue that he shoulda coulda did things better earlier in the season but hindsight is always 20/20.

That said, in a vacuum, Lando's peers in speed and potential championship competitors - Hamilton, Sainz, Leclerc, Russell - all strike me as decent in wheel-to-wheel and sportsmanship. Lando would have a much easier time if he was battling these than Mad Max Verstappen

[PitViperRacing]

Final lap in Abu Dhabi
Not many drivers would have been so fair not even considering the issue with the race directive

To be fair I reckon in the heat of the moment and everything going on it wasn't even a consideration in Lewis' brain. He'd have that many things running through his head he probably didn't realise he could have taken Max out to win it.

[PrinceBira]

I think it will be interesting so actually see another driver in Max’ position in the future. Meaning early WDC lead and then not having the fastest car for half of the season.

The last one I recall was Button in 2009.

[P123]

I think it will be interesting so actually see another driver in Max’ position in the future. Meaning early WDC lead and then not having the fastest car for half of the season.

The last one I recall was Button in 2009.

 

I'd imagine maximise the points available, which Max usually excels at.  He doesn't need the silly divebombs.  And he doesn't need 'special circumstances' to excuse them away.  What would he do if he were chasing, as in Lando's position?  

[New Britain]

There’s been a lot of talk about Max lately and while we don’t need another thread to discuss penalties etc, I found it quite interesting that Charles was much more supportive of Max and basically said they’d all do the same in his position.

In F1, it’s actually quite rare to see someone in a slower car fighting for a title. It’s probably Maxs talent that even puts him in these positions. (2021 and 2024) But I’m not sure we’ve really seen others in this position.

But do you agree with Charles? I’ve certainly seen enough glimpses over the years to suggest that Charles, Russell, Alonso and Lewis at least would battle as hard in a similar situation.

Winning ugly is something that happens in all sports. It’s actually sad for the sport that there’s been so few title battles in the last decade or so.

I think it’s only natural that if the cost cap works and the field is closer, the fighting on track will be harder.

It is odd that you appear to equate 'battling hard' with unsportsmanlike behaviour. There is a difference, you know.

[PrinceBira]

I'd imagine maximise the points available, which Max usually excels at. He doesn't need the silly divebombs. And he doesn't need 'special circumstances' to excuse them away. What would he do if he were chasing, as in Lando's position?

Same as Lando.

But what would other drivers to protect their lead?

Leclerc seems to say he could do the same. I’d just like to see it happen once. Not Max, another guy with an early lead and then holding on. How far would the others go? I dont know tbh.

[PlatenGlass]

Battling hard doesn't mean doing the same things Max would do. That second move at Mexico in particular was not what I would call "battling hard".

[TomNokoe]

To continue the fighting analogy, you aren't allowed to hit below the belt!

[kumo7]

Add a poll!

 

It is now, the preference of the poster not to depend on the pol. I can agree with you tho.

 

Onlu one thingI like from DC, among other things, is that he said taking something off from the driver's hand is like taking ice cream from a kid.

which could mean, that only champions could fight as hard as ever to hold onto his title(s).

 

We will see. I kinda like Max putting himself away from gossips. It is kinda cool. 

ut what he does on track is not. It must be told. I think Max will find other ways, and Lando will teach Max how to. 

[jacdaniel]

It is odd that you appear to equate 'battling hard' with unsportsmanlike behaviour. There is a difference, you know.

It’s not the same. You cross a line and you get a penalty of course.

But you can still fight ugly without breaking the rules. For example, Max fought hard at Cota knowing that even Norris got past him he would be too far behind Ferrari. That’s perfectly fine for me.

You can’t always be fastest. Winning ugly is a skill as well, as long as you don’t break the rules.

[F1matt]

Final lap in Abu Dhabi

Not many drivers would have been so fair not even considering the issue with the race directive

 

 

But what would Lewis Hamilton have gained? They were level on points and Max had won more races, so if both cars were eliminated Hamilton would still not be champion. This isn't like Suzuka or Adelaide. 

[New Britain]

It’s not the same. You cross a line and you get a penalty of course.

But you can still fight ugly without breaking the rules. For example, Max fought hard at Cota knowing that even Norris got past him he would be too far behind Ferrari. That’s perfectly fine for me.

You can’t always be fastest. Winning ugly is a skill as well, as long as you don’t break the rules.

You cross a line and you should get a penalty but, as we have seen, penalties are not always given when they should be given, are sometimes given when they should not be given, and in any case formal written penalties cannot possibly cover every possible scenario and circumstance. Hence the concept of sportsmanship, which is more fundamental than the ever-changing written rules.

Edited by New Britain, 01 November 2024 - 13:06.

[Clrnc]

Max is in a unique position where he treats F1 like a sport that he clearly loves, most of the other drivers are there for likes, to be popular, and always say the right thing. Max is still a boxer white the majority of them are WWE wrestlers.

That's such a weird thing to say

[Kao18]

https://x.com/f1rule...5054010850?s=46

Magnussen saying if he were Max he would do ‘everything he could’ to get the championship home.

Edited by Kao18, 01 November 2024 - 17:24.

[Timorous]

But what would Lewis Hamilton have gained? They were level on points and Max had won more races, so if both cars were eliminated Hamilton would still not be champion. This isn't like Suzuka or Adelaide. 

If Lewis lets Max hit him in T5 who knows how it shakes out.

 

Alternatively Lewis could have absolutely sent it into Turn 9 and just let things fall where they fall. It would have been a Mexico Turn 7 style move mind.

[Clrnc]

https://x.com/f1rule...5054010850?s=46

Magnussen saying if he were Max he would do ‘everything he could’ to get the championship home.

Which is why he's KMag

[PrinceBira]

Which is why he's KMag

It’s not that different from what Leclerc said:

“I also think that whoever in his position might just do the same, because we are fighting for a world title and I think it would be very false to say that drivers will do something different today.”

Edited by PrinceBira, 01 November 2024 - 17:37.

[Gareth]

https://x.com/f1rule...5054010850?s=46

Magnussen saying if he were Max he would do ‘everything he could’ to get the championship home.

I'm sure there are plenty of footballers who would do what Suarez did against Ghana to get their team through to a World Cup semi final.

 

The referee was still right to show him a red card and award a penalty. You don't go "oh but there was a lot at stake, and others would do the same, so let's just ignore it".

 

Plenty of drivers might well want to do this if they could get away with it. The point is the FIA should make it so they can't.

[Brawn BGP 001]

https://x.com/f1rule...5054010850?s=46

Magnussen saying if he were Max he would do ‘everything he could’ to get the championship home.

Not a huge surprise he does this for P14.

[P123]

https://x.com/f1rule...5054010850?s=46

Magnussen saying if he were Max he would do ‘everything he could’ to get the championship home.

 

And KMag has been penalised a lot.  Have at it I guess.  Whilst you complain about Max racking up the penalties you can comfort yourself that everybody would do the same because KMag said so, so it's all ok.  Just biased stewards, Johnny Herbert and the Brit press getting in the way. 

[Kao18]

I'm sure there are plenty of footballers who would do what Suarez did against Ghana to get their team through to a World Cup semi final.

 

The referee was still right to show him a red card and award a penalty. You don't go "oh but there was a lot at stake, and others would do the same, so let's just ignore it".

 

Plenty of drivers might well want to do this if they could get away with it. The point is the FIA should make it so they can't.

 

We are back to the football analogy I see. I dont know what Suarez did but I am sure its totally comparable. I'll take your word for it.

 

 

And KMag has been penalised a lot.  Have at it I guess.  Whilst you complain about Max racking up the penalties you can comfort yourself that everybody would do the same because KMag said so, so it's all ok.  Just biased stewards, Johnny Herbert and the Brit press getting in the way. 

 

Looks like we hit a nerve.

 

 

Not a huge surprise he does this for P14.

 

Leclerc basically said the same thing. At least they are not afraid to admit it. If there was any doubt if other (current) drivers would fight as hard in a WDC battle that can be put to bed now.

[garoidb]

In regards to motor racing I was socialized in the sixties and seventies so I still consider it a contactless sport. If Clark, Gurney or Stewart would  have collided with another car they would have risked their opponent's and their own lives. So they didn't.

Senna and Piquet were the first ones to no longer subscribe to this. Hence I can never call them or similar drivers from Schumacher to Vertappen true greats of the sport. Quite the contary to be honest, I simply do not have any respect for them. Scumbags one like the other.

 

I was surprised to see Piquet's name here. I wonder what incident(s) you have remembered that I have forgotten. 

[Collombin]

I was surprised to see Piquet's name here. I wonder what incident(s) you have remembered that I have forgotten.

Yes, Piquet had his share of collisions in his time but he was usually the innocent party.

[Hrco42]

We are back to the football analogy I see. I dont know what Suarez did but I am sure its totally comparable. I'll take your word for it.

I know it's not the topic and maybe you don't care, but I'll tell you since it's one of the famous moments in sports history and should be known by people who care about sports.

Uruguay - Ghana World Cup 2010 quarterfinal, it was the very end of extra time, 120th minute, result was 1:1. Ghana was attacking, kicked the ball towards the goal, Uruguay goalkeeper couldn't stop it but Suarez (attacker) stopped it with his hands on the goal line. Suarez got sent off, Ghana got the penalty. However, Ghana player missed the penalty. The match ended and went to penalties which Uruguay won and advanced to semifinals.

A lot of people were pissed off at Suarez, called him a cheater. But he did what many players would do in his place and turned out to be the Uruguay hero in the end. He was punished, Ghana was awarded the penalty and were huge favorites to win and become the first African team to reach the world cup semifinals, it's their fault they missed the penalty.

https://youtu.be/tDp...bcBVxEvpcjMLfA7

[jonklug]

Charles Leclerc: "I also think whoever in his position might just do the same, because we're fighting for the WDC. It would be very false to say drivers would do something different."

Kevin Magnussen: "I would do the same to bring the WDC home"

Alex Albon: "F1 is not a golf sport"

Pierre Gasly: "Max played it smart"

Esteban Ocon: "You have to do what you have to do to win the WDC"

George Russell: "Max is a 3 times world champion. He knows how to race"

[PrinceBira]

Charles Leclerc: "I also think whoever in his position might just do the same, because we're fighting for the WDC. It would be very false to say drivers would do something different."

Kevin Magnussen: "I would do the same to bring the WDC home"

Alex Albon: "F1 is not a golf sport"

Pierre Gasly: "Max played it smart"

Esteban Ocon: "You have to do what you have to do to win the WDC"

George Russell: "Max is a 3 times world champion. He knows how to race"

/end of topic?

[Lowgrip]

Unfortunately you need to crash out drivers like Max because it Is the only language they understand. Proper bullies on track need special treatment sometimes.

It is incredibile to think this is the same cr*p he usually pulls in the Sim racing(virtual world).

[TheFish]

I don't think other drivers would intentionally drive off the circuit like Max does, no.

 

You can race hard without defaulting to being a cheat.

[PrinceBira]

I don't think other drivers would intentionally drive off the circuit like Max does, no.

You can race hard without defaulting to being a cheat.

So how do you feel about what the drivers quoted above say then?

[TheFish]

So how do you feel about what the drivers quoted above say then?

Charles has to talk tough because there's a decent chance he'll be in a WDC battle with him in the future.

 

KMag and Ocon are 2 drivers that also go over the line regularly so they may also resort to dirty tactics but lack the ability to be in a title fight.

 

Albon 'they race me so hard '

 

Is there more to that George quote? Of course Max knows how to race.