326 replies to this topic

[AlexPrime]

No one is diminishing what was a great drive. Just throw a bit of reality into it.

You can do that to every great drive. Senna did it himself about Donington. Yet I am still amazed to it.
However, what I see now is malevolence. Only certain drivers, it seems, are allowed great drivers in minds of some.

[F1 Mike]

The track conditions were atrocious.
He's been under huge pressure in the championship.
The car has been pretty average for the last 5 months+.
Started race close to the back.

Unfortunately his attitude is still really poor when he has a bad day, and we saw it as recently as Sunday morning and I hope it changes...

But yeah definitely one of his greatest races given the circumstances!

[Ben1980]

You can do that to every great drive. Senna did it himself about Donington. Yet I am still amazed to it.
However, what I see now is malevolence. Only certain drivers, it seems, are allowed great drivers in minds of some.

I think the issue is people take things to extremes due to team loyalty.

If you think or thought Lando winning in Miami was lucky, it's hard to say this Max win wasn't.

I would be surprised if almost any great win didn't have an element of luck somewhere.

Great performance, big dollop of luck. Even his bad luck in qualifying freed up an extra set of inters, I saw he was on younger tyres than thise at the front. Luck can even itself out sometimes.

[BillBald]

Well every decision made has that going for it. Had Franco not binned it, Lando and George would have been pretty lucky to be able to ride out a period of full wets level rain whilst on inters safely behind the SC. This is inherent to the nature of wet weather racing and strategy calls. You play the %'s.

 

The biggest potential benefit for George and Lando of their decision to pit was a small reduction in time loss by doing it partially under VSC and an undercut. In other words, a few seconds extra of gap, in a race where they already had a nice buffer. Literally the only good scenarios for them were full wets level rain for sufficiently short period of time that we get full running and less than 40s is lost to the FW guys, or that happens under an SC, in each case with no RF. The consequence of this is ... something like a 25s gap to Max (instead of the 12s gap they had). That was their one good scenario, and the total outcome of it was ... pretty pointless. A gap of 25s vs 12s (on a day when SC's and RF's are likely to completely wipe out gaps) is nothing. You don't get extra points for winning by bigger margins.

 

The downside was giving up track position and ... well, what we saw.

 

The cost/benefit analysis was obviously, IMO, on the side of staying out. That's not captain hindsight thinking. That's what I said on my sofa at the time of watching. It's also what Max himself rightly worked out, from that radio exchange jonklug has posted.

 

Making the decision that comes with a highly beneficial outcome in a highly likely scenario, vs making the decision that comes with the minimally beneficial outcome in a low likelihood scenario, is clearly good decision making and not mere luck. Max and RBR (and Alpine and drivers) deserve credit for that IMO.

 

It was also downright silly for Lando to follow George into the pits. He had been behind him since lap 1, obviously being held up but unable to pass, so doing the opposite of what George did would have opened up an opportunity and maybe even saved his race.

 

(Of course he did overtake George when they both had the new tyres, but that seems to have been because Russell was unduly cautious on the back straight).

[Alexis*27]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Which is the point of a "greatest drive" discussion. It wouldn't be a discussion if it was a factual question.

 

I, for one, think Hakkinen's 2000 overtake on Schumacher at Spa was the most overrated overtake ever 

[Heyli]

I think the issue is people take things to extremes due to team loyalty.

If you think or thought Lando winning in Miami was lucky, it's hard to say this Max win wasn't.

I would be surprised if almost any great win didn't have an element of luck somewhere.

Great performance, big dollop of luck. Even his bad luck in qualifying freed up an extra set of inters, I saw he was on younger tyres than thise at the front. Luck can even itself out sometimes.

Fans Talk it up. People with dislike Talk it down. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

[pUs]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Which is the point of a "greatest drive" discussion. It wouldn't be a discussion if it was a factual question.

 

I, for one, think Hakkinen's 2000 overtake on Schumacher at Spa was the most overrated overtake ever 

Possibly is/was, but it came at a very crucial moment where he badly needed to win. I think that contributed. And I still thought it looked mighty cool, even though I was cheering on Michael.. 

Edited by pUs, 05 November 2024 - 13:59.

[MissingApex]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Which is the point of a "greatest drive" discussion. It wouldn't be a discussion if it was a factual question.

I, for one, think Hakkinen's 2000 overtake on Schumacher at Spa was the most overrated overtake ever

It was one of the most iconic overtakes in history though, just as Max’ drive in Brazil will be remembered as one of his greatest races.

[Gareth]

Fans Talk it up. People with dislike Talk it down. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

tbf I'd say truth is in the upper middle, mostly because there's not much headroom for fans to hyperbole into, because it was a very good drive indeed.

[AlexPrime]

It was one of the most iconic overtakes in history though, just as Max’ drive in Brazil will be remembered as one of his greatest races.

I also think that Mika's overtake was bloody brilliant. 

[ARTGP]

 

I, for one, think Hakkinen's 2000 overtake on Schumacher at Spa was the most overrated overtake ever 

 

There is a thread for this condition:  Unpopular Motorsport Opinions (Merged) - Page 84 - Racing Comments - The Autosport Forums

 

[P123]

I also think that Mika's overtake was bloody brilliant. 

 

Not as good as Coulthard doing similar in the wet in Brazil, with a Minardi as the sandwich. 

[CharlesWinstone]

When you start way back, surprise oponents with unexpected clean decisive passes, Never putting a tire wrong while clocking fastest after fastest lap and leaving the competition far behind then, then you must be doing something quite good. Regardless if it was his greatest drive or not it was a pleasure to watch.

[Victor]

This was one of the best drives I've ever seen, and I've been watching F1 since 1978. I've seen plenty of other great drives over the years, but this one easily makes it into the top 10.

[AlexPrime]

Not as good as Coulthard doing similar in the wet in Brazil, with a Minardi as the sandwich. 

I dunno. Watched that race, don't remember it... I think the guy on your avatar made a great pass there 

[Oakstreet]

Difficult to choose from:

 

COTA 15 - 4th in a Toro Rosso, wasn't this a drying track?

Brazil 16 - recovery after wrong pit call

Austria 19 - recovery drive

Hockenheim 19 - pirouette win, wet race

Russia 21 - recovery drive, also wet

Miami 23 - recovery drive to win

Spa 22 - dominance weekend & from 14 to first

Imola 24 - no errors under pressure

Brazil 24 - 17 to 1st

We're spoiled with such racers.

[PrinceBira]

Russia ‘21 surely not. That was a poor race until the rain hit last few laps.

Nice list other than that . Can include Barcelona ‘16. Brazil 2019.

[Analog]

In a way Max did his best to keep the race exciting also after he passed Ocon for the lead by setting fastest lap after fastest lap; his fans, and GP, going "please slow down" and his detractors "please crash"

[P123]

I dunno. Watched that race, don't remember it... I think the guy on your avatar made a great pass there 

 

That move probably does overshadow the one in the video below, in terms of memorable moments.  Unfortunately JPM had been Jos'd out of the race by the time the rain came!  DC could be quite good in the wet. 

 

[P123]

Difficult to choose from:

 

COTA 15 - 4th in a Toro Rosso, wasn't this a drying track?

Brazil 16 - recovery after wrong pit call

Austria 19 - recovery drive

Hockenheim 19 - pirouette win, wet race

Russia 21 - recovery drive, also wet

Miami 23 - recovery drive to win

Spa 22 - dominance weekend & from 14 to first

Imola 24 - no errors under pressure

Brazil 24 - 17 to 1st

We're spoiled with such racers.

 

No COTA '21?  Max's favourite (until last weekend probably!). 

[QdfV]

Well, for instance, going from 12th to 1st on a track in which overtaking is notoriously difficult, without having a free pit-stop and track position, and then overtaking the unovertakeable for the win. Or lapping the field (bar one) in conditions worse than at Brazil, only with a turbo engine delivering way more power and a manual gearbox. Or beating the might of the Nazi regime with a dandified sportscar. (That works for two, by the way.) Or driving for 3 hours at a sodden Monaco with barriers either side when one of your arms is nearly useless because of a motorbike accident but you still lap the world champion elect - and the acknowledged best in the world. Twice.

There are a good few that count but I cannot take this one as amongst them, because, when you analyse it properly, it's basically Button at Brazil 2009. A great drive but not in the category of greatest. That's not denigrating it, the very nature of "the best" means it has to be in the empyrean.

Maybe those are greater, a bit of storytelling in this too I think, but these are not really something as objective criteria of course. The problem is that all these drivers have a relatively stable performance level and a set of skills from one race to the other. I mean the greatest drive is not in isolation.
So it is the lack of errors, the consistent high level performance and the offset vs others that define it. Max ticked all these boxes in this race in my opinion. No errors, flawless and decisive overtakes, more than the rest of the field combined, the 10 or so fastest laps out of the 60 race laps we had, and no other driver even close on any performance indicator you can think of. Whether he went from 17th, 15th or whatever position to 1st is not really relevant for evaluating the term ‘greatest’.

The circumstances are only there to expose these more clearly, to enhance them. So the rain, the incidents and how to deal with them make the performance level more clear. The safety car, the red flag, the starts, the changing weather, rain-dry-rain-dry, all of these where attacked in a focussed way, no error was made and as the speed/performance was high for 100% of the race.

I don’t know what else could be done, it was great.

[Nemo1965]

Just listened to the crucial team radios from just before the red flag, by virtue of Joylon Palmer’s post-race analysis. Luck had nothing to do with the decisions that McLaren (I just typed by mistake McKaren, almost started a war here!) and Norris took versus Red Bull/Alpine/Toro Rosso/Mercedes. Yuki was the most decisive but wrong, but at least decisively wrong. Russell was right but got outvoted. Max explored the options but took the decision himself. Ocon screamed ‘no!’ at the suggestion to come in.

Norris and McLaren… took no decision at all. Really. I’m going to leave you all with the transcript, because it is clear that the discussion is nearing its end:

Joseph There’s yellow flags turn one, keeping an eye on it. Virtual Safety Car deployed. Virtual Safety Car deployed.
Norris It’s getting very, very wet. I’m struggling to see a little bit.
Joseph Understood. Lando, we will box this lap. Lando, we’re going to do up one on the front wing. Lando, the pit lane entrance is very wet.
Norris Yeah, what are you thinking about, the wet [weather tyre]? Or too much? I mean, it’s more than ever at the minute.
Norris I think it’s too wet, mate, it needs to stop.

Edit: if you want more, here’s all: https://www.racefans...lagos-downpour/

And here’s Max scaring GP until almost the last lap:

https://www.sportbib...271494-20241104

Edited by Nemo1965, 06 November 2024 - 07:54.

[MKSixer]

I might add one more thing about Max's drive this weekend. Though there are a few naysayers decrying the red flag situation, Max's drive is exactly what F1 needed in large part due to the controversies of the past few weeks. The reaction from his fellow drivers, hard-core Max fans and even (or perhaps, especially) his detractors like myself, should remind us that these moments are why we love this insanely quirky sport.  That race and Max's drive was definitely the Love part of my Love/Hate relationship with F1. 

[Laptom]

No COTA '21?  Max's favourite (until last weekend probably!). 

 

COTA '21 and France '21 were special. 

 

I also remember some spectucalar drives in '17 and '18, but not the races itself  . Need to rewatch to seasons.

[Ali_G]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Which is the point of a "greatest drive" discussion. It wouldn't be a discussion if it was a factual question.

I, for one, think Hakkinen's 2000 overtake on Schumacher at Spa was the most overrated overtake ever

100%. With Zonta in the way, there was only one way Hakkinen could have gone. Not sure what was overly great about it. Certainly any pass in those cars was a good pass given how difficult overtaking was at the time.

[Kao18]

COTA '21 and France '21 were special. 

 

I also remember some spectucalar drives in '17 and '18, but not the races itself  . Need to rewatch to seasons.

 

Singapore'15 was pretty special as well, made it into Q3, stalled on the grid, pushed back to the pitlane, eventually started more than 1 lap down, unlapped himself by lap six, posted fastest lap times, finished 8th.

[PayasYouRace]

YES

THAT'S MY POINT


Well, for instance, going from 12th to 1st on a track in which overtaking is notoriously difficult, without having a free pit-stop and track position, and then overtaking the unovertakeable for the win. Or lapping the field (bar one) in conditions worse than at Brazil, only with a turbo engine delivering way more power and a manual gearbox. Or beating the might of the Nazi regime with a dandified sportscar. (That works for two, by the way.) Or driving for 3 hours at a sodden Monaco with barriers either side when one of your arms is nearly useless because of a motorbike accident but you still lap the world champion elect - and the acknowledged best in the world. Twice.

There are a good few that count but I cannot take this one as amongst them, because, when you analyse it properly, it's basically Button at Brazil 2009. A great drive but not in the category of greatest. That's not denigrating it, the very nature of "the best" means it has to be in the empyrean.

Could you name and unshame the examples in your post please? I think I know most of them, but it helps to be clear, and there might be newbies reading.

Though as an aside, the question in the OP is if it was Verstappen’s greatest drive. It weirdly didn’t take long to compare it to other drivers’ great drives, even though that wasn’t the question asked.