26 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

Here's one for the data experts. Since F1 started, which car has won the most pole positions? I don't remember anyone attempting this analysis before.

Also, could we attempt to work out which car held that record as it developed. I imagine the record was broken in 2011 and 2014 but I'd be curious which car held it in the 1970s and 1980s.

In the period I know best, I can see:

4: Lancia-Ferrari D50 [0010]: Fangio in 1956
4: Vanwall '57 [VW10]: Brooks and Moss in 1958
5: Ferrari Dino 156/61 [0003]: Hill in 1961
7: Lotus 25 [R4]: Clark in 1963
6: Tyrrell 003: Stewart from 1971 to 1972
6: Lotus 72E [R6]: Peterson in 1973
7: McLaren M23 [8-2]: Hunt from 1976 to 1977
8: Lotus 78 [3 JPS17]: Andretti from 1977 to 1978

It gets tricky in 1984, when Piquet had a special Brabham BT53 for qualifying, so typically raced a different car to the one that took pole.

I would have expected one of Senna's McLarens to break the record in 1988 and 1989, but he used several different cars. Before 1954 and after 1989, I just don't have the data.

[F127]

 

I would have expected one of Senna's McLarens to break the record in 1988 and 1989, but he used several different cars.  Before 1954 and after 1989, I just don't have the data.  

 

I haven't done the research into whether they used separate cars for qualifying at any of the following races.... but these could make your list?

 

 

Senna could come close in 1990, MP4/5B/6 he used as a race car from Canada onwards and had 7 pole positions.

 

Prost beats him in 1993, in FW15C-04, which I believe he used up until Germany (and minus France), in which he claimed 8 pole positions, it could be a 100% strike rate for that chassis?  

Edited by F127, 18 November 2024 - 14:34.

[Allen Brown]

I haven't done the research into whether they used separate cars for qualifying at any of the following races.... but these could make your list?

 
Yes, I'd like to give the qualifying specials the credit, not the car that started the race from pole.
 
So FW15C-04 could have set a new record in 1993? 
 
Any other offers?

[chr1s]

Lauda put Ferrari 312B3 (015) on pole six times in 1974. 

[Roger Clark]

Assuming (1) you're restricting this to world championship races; (2) you allow Formula 2 in 1952-53 and (3) there was no swapping of chassis numbers - Ferrari 500-0005 was on pole 11 times in 1952-53, driver Alberto Ascari.  He was second on the grid to Farina in the 1952 British Grand Prix but they were credited with the same time and they used with egg timers.

Edited by Roger Clark, 18 November 2024 - 18:54.

[Andretti Fan]

If we're including non Championship races, Lotus72D R3 competed in 45 South African championship races, winning 21. Does anyone have a source to find out how many poles it may have with drivers Dave Carlton and Eddie Keizan?

Edited by Andretti Fan, 19 November 2024 - 05:24.

[GazChed]

If we're including non Championship races, Lotus72D R3 competed in 45 South African championship races, winning 21. Does anyone have a source to find out how many poles it may have with drivers Dave Carlton and Eddie Keizan?

According to silhouet.com, Dave Charlton first raced a Lotus 72D in the eighth round (of twelve) of the 1971 South African Formula One championship gaining three pole positions in the last five rounds. In 1972 he took ten from twelve pole positions, repeating the feat in 1973 and with Eddie Keizan taking one pole position in 1974 that gave a total of twenty four pole positions.

[Allen Brown]

Lauda put Ferrari 312B3 (015) on pole six times in 1974. 

 

I'm only seeing Jarama, Zandvoort, Brands Hatch, Österreichring and Monza.  What am I missing?

[Allen Brown]

I was using "F1" in the modern sense, so starting with the World Championship in 1950 and winding through to the current circus.  1952 and 1953 do count (thanks Roger).  Non-championship events don't count as fields weren't representative.  Yes, swapping of chassis numbers may well be a problem.

 

Let's narrow it down to cars with seven or more pole positions.  So far, the contenders are:

 

11: Ferrari 500 [0005]: Alberto Ascari 
7: Lotus 25 [R4]: Clark in 1963

7: McLaren M23 [8-2]: Hunt from 1976 to 1977

8: Lotus 78 [3 JPS17]: Andretti from 1977 to 1978

TBC: a Brabham BT53: Nelson Piquet in 1984

7: McLaren MP4/5B [6]: Senna in 1990?

8: Williams FW15C [04]: Prost in 1993?

 

Anything else in the 1980s or 1990s?  

 

And who here is good on F1 after 2000?  Or is this the wrong forum for that question?

[BRG]

Hamilton racked up a lot of poles - usually 10 to 12 a season between 2016 and 2021.  But I am not sure how many were in the same car.

[Charlieman]

After 2009, Vettel's record should be interesting. He had favourite cars with names.

[Collombin]

TBC: a Brabham BT53: Nelson Piquet in 1984

According to Peter Windsor's Autocar reports, the pole laps for Piquet in 1984 were set in BT53/03 on 6 occasions, and one each in /02 (Montreal), /06 (Nürburgring) and /04 (Estoril).

Edited by Collombin, 19 November 2024 - 11:14.

[F127]

I was using "F1" in the modern sense, so starting with the World Championship in 1950 and winding through to the current circus.  1952 and 1953 do count (thanks Roger).  Non-championship events don't count as fields weren't representative.  Yes, swapping of chassis numbers may well be a problem.

 

Let's narrow it down to cars with seven or more pole positions.  So far, the contenders are:

 

11: Ferrari 500 [0005]: Alberto Ascari 
7: Lotus 25 [R4]: Clark in 1963

7: McLaren M23 [8-2]: Hunt from 1976 to 1977

8: Lotus 78 [3 JPS17]: Andretti from 1977 to 1978

TBC: a Brabham BT53: Nelson Piquet in 1984

7: McLaren MP4/5B [6]: Senna in 1990?

8: Williams FW15C [04]: Prost in 1993?

 

Anything else in the 1980s or 1990s?  

 

And who here is good on F1 after 2000?  Or is this the wrong forum for that question?

 

I'd also check out FW19-04 which I believe JV used for the whole of 1997 except for the first round, if so it is possible he took 9 pole positions in that car.

Edited by F127, 19 November 2024 - 11:54.

[Henk Vasmel]

If we're including non Championship races, Lotus72D R3 competed in 45 South African championship races, winning 21. Does anyone have a source to find out how many poles it may have with drivers Dave Carlton and Eddie Keizan?

I have 24 poles, allmost all for Charlton, plus 3 races where I don't have a grid position, but 2 of these 3 don't look like poles to me. A win in Pietermaritzburg, 7/8/71 could be. The other two are a retirement and a DNS in 1974

[chr1s]

I'm only seeing Jarama, Zandvoort, Brands Hatch, Österreichring and Monza.  What am I missing?

Monaco?

[Allen Brown]

Monaco?

 

According to Autocourse, that was chassis 010.  It says he damaged 015 in the first session and another car was trucked up from Modena.  

[Allen Brown]

I had a look at a database somebody kindly sent me some years ago that covers up to 2007 and got this list:

 

9: Williams FW14B [08]: Mansell in 1992

8: Lotus 78 [3 JPS17]: Andretti from 1977 to 1978

8: McLaren M23 [8-2]: (this adds Hunt's 7 in 8-2 from 1976 to 1977 to 1 for M23/8, which wasn't really the same car)

8: Williams FW19 [04]: Jacques Villeneuve in 1997

7: Lotus 25 [R4]: Clark in 1963

7: Williams FW11B [03]: Mansell in 1987

7: Williams FW15C [04]: Prost in 1993

7: Lotus 72E [R6] - I get one less than this

 

There are a lot on six, including Senna's McLaren MP4/5B [6], and he has Piquet's Brabham BT53 poles in 1984 allocated to the car he raced, not the car that won the pole.  He also has six Ferrari 500 poles allocated to an unknown car, so Ascari's 500 should really be topping this list.

 

So we all forgot about Mansell in 1992.  

Who has data after 2007?

[Claudio Navonne]

What a thread! After more than 20 years of frequenting TNF , it never ceases to amaze me. Thanks to all of you.

[chr1s]

According to Autocourse, that was chassis 010.  It says he damaged 015 in the first session and another car was trucked up from Modena.  

Sorry, you're quite right, my mistake. 

[Allen Brown]

According to Peter Windsor's Autocar reports, the pole laps for Piquet in 1984 were set in BT53/03 on 6 occasions, and one each in /02 (Montreal), /06 (Nürburgring) and /04 (Estoril).

 

I've been intrigued by this, so have looked at Autosport, Autocourse, GPI and Motor Sport.  I can't see anything to support the idea that Piquet used BT53/2 in Montreal, as that was Fabi's car.  BT53/3 is given as Piquet's T-car, and although he had to change car at one point on the Friday, everything appears to have gone completely smoothly for him on Saturday when he set his pole time.  So I think it's seven to BT53/3, and the other two for either BT53/4 or BT53/6 at the Nürburgring and Estoril.  

[Collombin]

Yes, the Autocar grids are not averse to the odd typo, so 53/02 is possibly an error, though it does show Fabi's race car as 53/03 for that race. However, in the end of year summary of race chassis numbers it has Fabi in his usual 53/02 for Montreal.

If 53/03 is incorrect for Fabi's Montreal car does that mean it could be a chassis with a 100% win rate? It was the car Piquet apparently used to win in Detroit after being ourniged on the first start, and was presumably not raced anywhere else.

[Henk Vasmel]

List of Chassis with 4 or more Pole positions in WC races from 1950 through to 2021.

 

After 2021, no information yet. 2023 should be a nice candidate for more chassis, given the dominance of Red Bull.

 

The last few years are not quite complete, due to missing info for a couple of makes. Possibly some candidates have been missed.

 

One car many times on pole is getting to be more common with the increase of races in one season.

 

The chassis mentioned are as listed in my database. This contains some 40-50 years of research. Not all of my chassis numbers match other sources. This is to the best of my knowledge. Some corrections can be expected to be made in the future. This is today’s status.

 

Alfa Romeo 158D / 159     158111/158-3        Juan Manuel Fangio                         5 poles                  1950/51

Ferrari 500                          005                        Alberto Ascari                                    11 poles               1952/53

Maserati 250F                   2529                     Juan Manuel Fangio                         5 Poles (S:3)       1957/58

Vanwall                                VW10                   T. Brooks (1), S. Moss (3)               4 Poles                  1958

Ferrari 246                          0003                     Mike Hawthorn                                 4 Poles                  1958 (once with the ID 0005)

Cooper 51                           FII-19-59             Stirling Moss                                      4 poles                  1959/60

Ferrari 156                          0003                     Phil Hill                                                  4 poles                  1961

Lotus 25                               R4                           Jim Clark                                              7 poles                  1963

BRM P261                           2616                     Graham Hill                                         4 poles (S:3)       1965

Lotus 33                               R11                        Jim Clark                                              6 poles (S:5)       1965/66

Lotus 49                               R2                           Jim Clark                                              6 poles (S:5)       1967

Lotus 49B                            B6                           Jochen Rindt                                      4 poles                  1969

Tyrrell                                    003                        Jackie Stewart                                    6 poles                  1971/72

Ferrari 312B                       005                        C. Regazzoni (1), J. Ickx (3)            4 poles                  1971/72

Lotus 72E                            E6                           Ronnie Peterson                               6 poles                  1973 (once possibly E8)

Ferrari 312B3                    015                        Niki Lauda                                           6 poles (S:5)       1974

Ferrari 312T                       022                        Niki Lauda                                           5 poles                  1975

Ferrari 312T                       023                        Niki Lauda                                           4 poles                  1975

McLaren M23B                 B8-2                      James Hunt                                         7 poles                  1976/77

Lotus 78                               3                             Mario Andretti                                  8 poles                  1977/78

Lotus 79                               3                             Mario Andretti                                  4 poles                  1978

Ligier JS11                           2                             Jacques Laffite                                   4 poles                  1979

Renault RE30                     33                           René Arnoux                                      4 poles                  1981

Brabham BT53                   5                             Nelson Piquet                                    4 poles                  1984

Lotus 97T                            T2                           Ayrton Senna                                     4 poles                  1985

Lotus 98T                            T3                           Ayrton Senna                                     5 poles                  1986

Williams FW11B               B3                           Nigel Mansell                                     8 poles (S:7)       1987

McLaren MP4/4                1                             Ayrton Senna                                     6 poles (S:4)       1988

McLaren MP4/4                5                             Ayrton Senna                                     6 poles (S:5)       1988

McLaren MP4/5                7                             Ayrton Senna                                     6 poles                  1989

McLaren MP4/5B             B6                           Ayrton Senna                                     6 poles                  1990

Williams FW14B               B8                           N. Mansell (8), R. Patrese (1)       9 poles (S:8)       1992

Williams FW14B               B11                        Nigel Mansell                                     6 poles                  1992

Williams FW15C               C4                           Alain Prost                                          8 poles                  1993

Williams FW15C               C5                           Alain Prost                                          5 poles                  1993

Williams FW18                  04                           Damon Hill                                          5 poles                  1996

Willaims FW19                  04                           Jacques Villeneuve                           9 poles                  1997

McLaren MP4/14             05                           Mika Häkkinen                                  6 poles                  1999

Ferrari F1-2000                 205                        Michael Schumacher                      4 poles                  2000

Ferrari F2001                     210                        Michael Schumacher                      5 poles                  2001

Williams FW24                  05                           Juan-Pablo Montoya                       6 poles (S:5)       2002

Ferrari F2004                     234                        Michael Schumacher                      4 poles                  2004

Ferrari F2004                     239                        Michael Schumacher                      4 poles                  2004

Renault R25                        04                           Fernando Alonso                              4 poles                  2005

McLaren MP4/20             04                           Kimi Räikkönen                                  5 poles                  2005

Renault R26                        03                           Fernando Alonso                              6 poles                  2006

Ferrari F2007                     260                        Felipe Massa                                      4 poles                  2007

Brawn BGP001                  02                           Jenson Button                                    4 poles                  2009

Red Bull RB6                       3                             S. Vettel (3), M. Webber (1)         4 poles                  2010

Red Bull RB6                       4                             Mark Webber (1)                             4 poles                  2010

Red Bull RB6                       2                             Sebastian Vettel                                4 poles                  2010

Red Bull RB7                       3                             Sebastian Vettel                                8 poles                  2011

Red Bull RB7                       5                             Sebastian Vettel                                7 poles                  2011

Red Bull RB8                       04                           Sebastian Vettel                                5 poles                  2012

Red Bull RB9                       03                           Sebastian Vettel                                9 poles                  2013

Mercedes F1 W04            04                           Lewis Hamilton                                  5 poles                  2013

Mercedes F1 W05            01                           Lewis Hamilton                                  4 poles                  2014

Mercedes F1 W05            04                           Nico Rosberg                                      10 poles               2014

Mercedes F1 W06            01                           L. Hamilton (5), N. Rosberg (6)    11 poles               2015

Mercedes F1 W06            05                           Lewis Hamilton                                  6 poles                  2015

Mercedes F1 W07            01                           Lewis Hamilton                                  4 poles                  2016

Mercedes F1 W07            04                           Lewis Hamilton                                  8 poles                  2016

Mercedes F1 W07            05                           Nico Rosberg                                      5 poles                  2016

Mercedes F1 W08            03                           Valtteri Bottas                                    4 poles                  2017

Mercedes F1 W08            05                           Lewis Hamilton                                  9 poles                  2017

Mercedes F1 W09            01                           Lewis Hamilton                                  5 poles                  2018

Ferrari SF71H                     326                        Sebastian Vettel                                4 poles                  2018

Mercedes F1 W09            05                           Lewis Hamilton                                  6 poles                  2018

Mercedes F1W10             03                           Valtteri Bottas                                    4 poles                  2019

Ferrari SF90                        333                        Charles Leclerc                                   6 poles                  2019

Mercedes F1 W11            01                           Lewis Hamilton                                  7 poles                  2020

Red Bull RB16B                 02                           Max Verstappen                               6 poles                  2021

 

Excuses for the bad formatting. That's what this interface offers.
(S:x) after a number of poles indicates that not always the car that got the pole actually started the race.I hope that is clear.
Any questions, please ask

[ReWind]

Alfa Romeo 158D / 159     158111/158-3        Juan Manuel Fangio                         5 poles                  1950/51

Ferrari 500                          005                        Alberto Ascari                                    11 poles               1952/53

Maserati 250F                   2529                     Juan Manuel Fangio                         5 Poles (S:3)       1957/58

Excuses for the bad formatting. That's what this interface offers.

Using "Code" [between "Image" and "Quote"]:

Alfa Romeo 158D / 159     158111/158-3   Juan Manuel Fangio         5 poles         1950/51

Ferrari 500               005            Alberto Ascari            11 poles         1952/53

Maserati 250F             2529           Juan Manuel Fangio         5 poles (S:3)   1957/58

 

[Henk Vasmel]

 

Using "Code" [between "Image" and "Quote"]:

Alfa Romeo 158D / 159     158111/158-3   Juan Manuel Fangio         5 poles         1950/51

Ferrari 500               005            Alberto Ascari            11 poles         1952/53

Maserati 250F             2529           Juan Manuel Fangio         5 poles (S:3)   1957/58

 

Thanks, ReWind. I did not know this. Sometimes, I have refrained from posting Excel data, because they would look horrible. This time, it looked not too bad, but not up to my standard. Legible at least, so I posted it. Next time, I will try your hint, to see if that improves things.

[Allen Brown]

I have narrowed Henk's data down to seven or more:

Ferrari 500            005         Alberto Ascari                     11 poles            1952/53
Lotus 25               R4          Jim Clark                          7 poles             1963
McLaren M23B           B8-2        James Hunt                         7 poles             1976/77
Lotus 78               3           Mario Andretti                     8 poles             1977/78
Williams FW11B         B3          Nigel Mansell                      8 poles (S:7)       1987
Williams FW14B         B8          N. Mansell (8), R. Patrese (1)     9 poles (S:8)       1992
Williams FW15C         C4          Alain Prost                        8 poles             1993
Willaims FW19          04          Jacques Villeneuve                 9 poles             1997
Red Bull RB7           3           Sebastian Vettel                   8 poles             2011
Red Bull RB7           5           Sebastian Vettel                   7 poles             2011
Red Bull RB9           03          Sebastian Vettel                   9 poles             2013
Mercedes F1 W05        04          Nico Rosberg                       10 poles            2014
Mercedes F1 W06        01          L. Hamilton (5), N. Rosberg (6)    11 poles            2015
Mercedes F1 W07        04          Lewis Hamilton                     8 poles             2016
Mercedes F1 W08        05          Lewis Hamilton                     9 poles             2017
Mercedes F1 W11        01          Lewis Hamilton                     7 poles             2020

[Allen Brown]

So, merging it all together for 1950 to 2021:

 

11: Ferrari 500 [0005]: Alberto Ascari 1952-1953

11: Mercedes F1 W06 [01]: Hamilton (5) and Rosberg (6) 2015

10: Mercedes F1 W05 [04]: Rosberg 2014

9: Williams FW14B [08]: Mansell and Patrese 1992

9: Williams FW19 [04]: Villeneuve 1997

9: Red Bull RB9 [03]: Vettel 2013

9: Mercedes F1 W08 [05]: Hamilton 2017

8: Lotus 78 [3 JPS17]: Andretti 1977-1978

8: Williams FW19 [04]: Villeneuve 1997

8: Williams FW15C [04]: Prost 1993

8: Red Bull RB7 [3]: Vettel in 2011

8: Mercedes F1 W07 [04]: Hamilton 2016

7: Lotus 25 [R4]: Clark 1963

7: McLaren M23 [8-2]: Hunt 1976-1977

7: Brabham BT53 [3]: Piquet 1984

7: Williams FW11B [03]: Mansell 1987

7: Red Bull RB7 [5]: Vettel 2011

7: Mercedes F1 W11 [01]: Hamilton 2020

and then many tied on 6

 

E&OE!

Edited by Allen Brown, 25 November 2024 - 16:55.

[Ray Bell]

Amazing that there's no mention of Senna in that list...

 

He made such a job of getting on pole.