60 replies to this topic

[ARTGP]

FIA bans skid blocks due to Red Bull hint | AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT

This technical directive is quite something. With immediate effect, the FIA is banning special protective plates that around 50 percent of the teams had fitted over the skid blocks. Red Bull pointed out to the association that this practice is illegal. It's the big issue with the ground effect cars. How deep can I drive without the skid blocks in the underbody wearing out too much due to contact with the road surface? The critical value for the screws that fix the floor panel to the car is one millimeter. Anyone who exceeds this will be disqualified, as Mercedes and Ferrari did at the 2023 US GP.

Because the downforce of the cars is heavily dependent on the height of the vehicle, the teams have come up with every conceivable trick over the last three years to protect the fastening screws as well as possible. They have experimented with insulating material between the base plate or with bolts that have a certain amount of play to cushion the impact from the track.

Red Bull discovered the trick first

The latest trick was to provide the skid-blocks, which are used for measurement by the FIA inspectors, with special protection. This applies above all to the fastening screw in the rear area of the base plate. Everyone wants to drive as low as possible in order to gain downforce. Around 50 percent of the field believed they had found a loophole in the regulations. Red Bull was the first to discover the so-called protection skids among the competition. These are said to include Ferrari, Mercedes and Haas. World Championship opponents McLaren, on the other hand, like Red Bull, did without this practice. 

What are the consequences of the ban?

Red Bull pointed out to the FIA that the trick was illegal if the rules were applied precisely and that a protest would have to be expected if there was no clarification on this issue. And this came promptly. A week before the Las Vegas GP, all teams received a letter. In a technical directive, the FIA announced that the protective skids in question were not permitted. This assessment applies with immediate effect. Ferrari would have liked to move the date to the Qatar GP, but were unable to get their way. The teams affected now have a problem that is all the greater when the aerodynamics are specifically designed for extremely low ground clearance. Because no one can risk the skid blocks rubbing off too much, the relevant teams have to raise their vehicle height to a safe level. And that could cost one or the other a lap time.

 

 

Ferrari, Mercedes, and Haas have been named as having to change their floors.  Red Bull and Mclaren did not use it. 

Edited by ARTGP, 21 November 2024 - 06:51.

[Okyo]

If I'd make a stab at it, I'd say RedBull used it up until the point where they have secured the WDC and then blew the lid off to compromise the rest of the field. Seeing how close still they are to Ferrari, this timing is absurdly right to make gains for the WCC 2nd place.  

Well played and go to **** if it works. 

Edited by Okyo, 21 November 2024 - 07:01.

[P123]

Blessing in disguise for Merc, given they appear to have veered back to their mantra of 2022 of running the car as low as possible, and as a consequence having to have a brick. 

 

I don't think it's just been discovered by Red Bull given how many have been doing it.  More so they have argued a point in the regs and noted what they would protest on, and the FIA have accepted their view.  Like countless times with teams up and down the grid in the past. 

[brucewayne]

Funny how fast the FIA reacts when it’s possibly against Ferrari.

[Muppetmad]

How very tedious.

[Heyli]

I dont understand it. I'm not sure how any special protection can fall under a loophole, but I'm sure some more detailed explanation or theory will come out soon. 

[Garagista]

Funny how fast the FIA reacts when it’s possibly against Ferrari.

 

It is astonishing, Wings bending, opening "mini-DRS" in front of all our eyes, and they had to install dots and things to "control" it, this is an immediate TD. Most efficient organization in the World when is to ban Ferrari things

[brucewayne]

I dont understand it. I'm not sure how any special protection can fall under a loophole, but I'm sure some more detailed explanation or theory will come out soon.

Wait and see, recently the reporting is more speculative. Not sure anyone knows anything. Nevertheless, it’s time for Ferrari to stop being gentle to other teams, as the others are clearly not.

Edited by brucewayne, 21 November 2024 - 08:20.

[Okyo]

I dont understand it. I'm not sure how any special protection can fall under a loophole, but I'm sure some more detailed explanation or theory will come out soon. 

The article is very very lacking in describing it coherently. It states it's a very conceivable trick, yet later it's describing like a protection that goes over the the skid blocks. How the hell can you hide that? Really need more info on it. It being reported by a single outlet is rather odd as well. 

Edited by Okyo, 21 November 2024 - 08:22.

[baddog]

If I'd make a stab at it, I'd say RedBull used it up until the point where they have secured the WDC and then blew the lid off to compromise the rest of the field. Seeing how close still they are to Ferrari, this timing is absurdly right to make gains for the WCC 2nd place.  

Well played and go to **** if it works. 

 

Seems like wishful thinking on your part? Its 'your guys' who are being told to stop it and you don't like that so it must really be RBR who did it? I mean if you have a reason beyond that lets hear it.

[Kulturen]

It's hilarious isn't it? I was going to post that "even though now it's RedBull that made the call that other teams are doing something dodgy, watch people somehow still claim it's redbull being the evil cheaters which is their standard perl clutching reaction every time it's redbull pushing the envelope"

 

And it took literally ONE REPLY in the thread for that to happen 

[Okyo]

Seems like wishful thinking on your part? Its 'your guys' who are being told to stop it and you don't like that so it must really be RBR who did it? I mean if you have a reason beyond that lets hear it.

"If I'd make a stab at it" means I'm doing a guess so it's not like i have to provide proof. They could have used the loop hole themselves, or not, who knows. I don't even care about if they did or didn't use it, main point of the whole post was the strategic use of timing to blow the lid and call foul. You allow Ferrari to take away points from McLaren, which secures the WDC. Then you sabotage them so you could possibly get them in the WCC with 3 races to go. 

Me saying "well played" and "go to hell" was fully due to that. 

Edited by Okyo, 21 November 2024 - 08:52.

[JBJ]

It's hilarious isn't it? I was going to post that "even though now it's RedBull that made the call that other teams are doing something dodgy, watch people somehow still claim it's redbull being the evil cheaters which is their standard perl clutching reaction every time it's redbull pushing the envelope"

 

And it took literally ONE REPLY in the thread for that to happen 

  You beat me to it with this reply 

[Okyo]

It's hilarious isn't it? I was going to post that "even though now it's RedBull that made the call that other teams are doing something dodgy, watch people somehow still claim it's redbull being the evil cheaters masterminds which is their standard perl clutching reaction every time it's redbull pushing the envelope"

There you go. Still evil 

Edited by Okyo, 21 November 2024 - 08:56.

[Diablobb81]

I have to question wtf FIA is doing if they didn't catch such a trick and allowed teams to use it.

[Chillimeister]

Funny how fast the FIA reacts when it’s possibly against Ferrari.

 

Why not wait until practice to see which cars might have been affected? I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren were one as well.

[brucewayne]

Why not wait until practice to see which cars might have been affected? I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren were one as well.

Tombazis needs to get fired for handling all these topics this year, he is not up to the task.

[brucewayne]

I have to question wtf FIA is doing if they didn't catch such a trick and allowed teams to use it.

Could be more like the none story of the RB device a couple of weeks ago.

Nevertheless, the fight for 2025 starts officially now. Ferrari needs to be more ruthless.

Edited by brucewayne, 21 November 2024 - 09:25.

[PayasYouRace]

So if I’m understanding it right, it’s a method to stop the plank wearing?

All seems like a storm in a teacup, as are most technical controversies nowadays. When was the last time a team was disqualified for having something illegal on their car, or another team protesting a result?

[southernstars]

There must be more to this, because the way it seems to be described is if it was a cover over the plank, and surely parc ferme checks would have found such a device. They have most certainly selected a Ferrari and a Merc for the random plank check at points this year. There's also no conceivable way a team could try and argue their way around a plank cover.

[sterlingfan2000]

Redbull waited so Ferrari could steal Points from McLaren. Now it's over , time to go over to the Ferrari cheats. There's even Rumours that Ferrari also used water into tyres

Edited by sterlingfan2000, 21 November 2024 - 09:40.

[ARTGP]

Red Bull, Ferrari among teams to adapt floors after FIA clampdown - The Race

 

 

At least half of the grid is believed to have taken action in response. This doesn’t necessarily mean the cars would have been considered illegal prior to this latest TD, something that could only have been tested if a protest were lodged, but the response suggests the move has had the desired effect.

The current ground-effect cars produce prodigious downforce when running close to the ground.

If, and to what extent, this will impact the competitive order is unclear at this stage, although it is potentially a disadvantage for Ferrari, which is expected to be strong on the long straights and in the slow corners of Las Vegas, where running low on the bumpy track runs the risk of excess plank wear. Red Bull could perhaps take a small hit, although its apparent support for the TD suggests it sees it as a net gain.

All of that could be good news for McLaren if it wasn’t among those taking advantage.

 

[Risil]

I'm afraid I'm going to need a diagram

[pdac]

Either it was some kind of loophole or else we have to ask just how rubbish are the scrutineers.

Edited by pdac, 21 November 2024 - 10:01.

[jonklug]

As always, teams push the boundaries, but when the FIA steps in and says it's too much, it has to go. How it's always been. Notice I don't throw the word "cheating" around as it would have been the case had RedBull been the ones caught with something like this    

[SenorSjon]

So if I’m understanding it right, it’s a method to stop the plank wearing?

All seems like a storm in a teacup, as are most technical controversies nowadays. When was the last time a team was disqualified for having something illegal on their car, or another team protesting a result?

 

Belgium 2024: Russell excessive plank wear

Austin 2023: Hamilton and Leclerc excessive plank wear

 

It seems the mounting bolts for the plank protectors stick out a bit to get more protection to the skids and they can wear away first. 

[jonklug]

Kind of sucks a bit in terms of the Constructor's championship, if this slows Ferrari down visibly it will take away from some of the excitement of the last 3 races. But let's see what effect it has on performance, if any. 

[PayasYouRace]

Belgium 2024: Russell excessive plank wear
Austin 2023: Hamilton and Leclerc excessive plank wear

It seems the mounting bolts for the plank protectors stick out a bit to get more protection to the skids and they can wear away first.

Not what I was asking. Sorry for not being clear. I meant for having an actual illegal component or technique applied on the car. Not just a measurement out of limits.

I was not looking for plank wear, underweight (Russell at Sp was this, not plank wear) or incorrect wing dimensions (Hamilton at Interlagos), for example,

[brucewayne]

Very speculative, I don’t think this is a big story as AMuS tries to spin it. Very much like last weeks RBs non story.

[jonklug]

Very speculative, I don’t think this is a big story as AMuS tries to spin it. Very much like last weeks RBs non story.

 

Might very well be, however if they are forced to run the car higher, that is very likely to cost performance. 

[brucewayne]

Might very well be, however if they are forced to run the car higher, that is very likely to cost performance.

Who knows, we will see. But we do know that no team knows what others are doing.

Edited by brucewayne, 21 November 2024 - 10:36.

[PrinceBira]

It's interesting to see how much effort all teams are making to be able to run the car as low as possible. It's pretty obvious that by far the biggest chunk of performance is in the ride height (if you can control it well).

 

I suspect we will see many more 'clever' ways to mitigate some of the limitations imposed by the rules. And all is fair game in my view as it would not result in a DQ when the FIA would do scrutineering (because they do check planks for sure randomly after races). In this case, it seems the FIA approved the planks of said cars, but RB is questioning whether the FIA interpreted the Technical Rules correctly. 

[baddog]

I'm afraid I'm going to need a diagram

 

If you look at the underside of a merc and an RBR the sort of 'lip' around the screw holes on the RBR is recessed, so the only surface is wear board. On the merc there seems to be a flush piece of metal which fits differently. Its not exactly clear to the casual viewer

 

Some pics here:

https://www.f1techni...1259187&f=1

[Heyli]

Red Bull, Ferrari among teams to adapt floors after FIA clampdown - The Race

So Red Bull highlights something and then need to change their own car?

[Okyo]

So Red Bull highlights something and then need to change their own car?

If it's a net gain in their eyes, being more ready to adapt than their competitors, why not? 

[sterlingfan2000]

Redbull attacking Ferrari 2025 Car ? It could be

[brucewayne]

Redbull attacking Ferrari 2025 Car ? It could be

It’s more likely that this is a nothingburger. There is a good chance that they asked for a delay because it was on short notice. FIA brings up this stuff 1 week before the LV GP. Nightmare logistics, and unnecessary for the last 3 races. Tombazis needs to go.

Edited by brucewayne, 21 November 2024 - 12:19.

[jonpollak]

I'm afraid I'm going to need a diagram

Here’s one I found on the FIA website.

Jp

[Clatter]

Redbull attacking Ferrari 2025 Car ? It could be

Why would they give a competitor several months to make changes to their car?

[vlado]

The last time Ferrari had to raise the floor it took them 2 years to “fix” it so this will be very interesting

[DJH63]

It’s more likely that this is a nothingburger. There is a good chance that they asked for a delay because it was on short notice. FIA brings up this stuff 1 week before the LV GP. Nightmare logistics, and unnecessary for the last 3 races. Tombazis needs to go.

There is no logistical nightmare. It’s a bolt on part to the plank, not inbuilt. They just don’t add it this weekend.

 

Whilst appreciating that it affects the team you support, saying there’s only 3 races left is meaningless as by that standard the rules should just go out the window now as there’s only 3 races left…

[SenorSjon]

Not what I was asking. Sorry for not being clear. I meant for having an actual illegal component or technique applied on the car. Not just a measurement out of limits.

I was not looking for plank wear, underweight (Russell at Sp was this, not plank wear) or incorrect wing dimensions (Hamilton at Interlagos), for example,

 

I can only remember Hamilton DSQ in qualy for the DRS slot. The Alfa's got a time penalty because their clutch engagement was too slow at the start of the German GP in 2019. Usually teams get a warning to change their car for the next race if something is found.

[Flyingfinn]

Hmm. So were Ferrari and RedBull illegal till now?

[PayasYouRace]

I can only remember Hamilton DSQ in qualy for the DRS slot. The Alfa's got a time penalty because their clutch engagement was too slow at the start of the German GP in 2019. Usually teams get a warning to change their car for the next race if something is found.

Pretty much what I’m getting at. Unless something is a measurement out of limits, nobody ever gets disqualified any more, nobody protests any results. Everything just get swept under the carpet and we’re left with rumour and conjecture about who did what. I can understand that it’s partly due to odd little loopholes and omissions from the rules, but other times seem like more blatant covering up to keep everyone happy.

[Raest]

There is no logistical nightmare. It’s a bolt on part to the plank, not inbuilt. They just don’t add it this weekend.

 

Whilst appreciating that it affects the team you support, saying there’s only 3 races left is meaningless as by that standard the rules should just go out the window now as there’s only 3 races left…

Considering they took their sweet time to even acknoweledge that there was an issue with the flexi wings (only to do nothing in the end) there is some ground for Ferrari and others to feel aggrieved here. Irrespective of whether the fix is simple or not. 

[genius83]

Pretty much what I’m getting at. Unless something is a measurement out of limits, nobody ever gets disqualified any more, nobody protests any results. Everything just get swept under the carpet and we’re left with rumour and conjecture about who did what. I can understand that it’s partly due to odd little loopholes and omissions from the rules, but other times seem like more blatant covering up to keep everyone happy.

Well in 2020, there were few races with results under protest because of the Pink Mercedes Saga, the protestors(Alpine) don't get the verdict in their favour though.

[jonklug]

Hmm. So were Ferrari and RedBull illegal till now?

 

RedBull made the complaint but go on 

[midgrid]

It's worth keeping in mind that it's much easier for the scrutineers to check if a floor has a "skid-block protector" fitted or not than to apply a flexi-wing test that accurately reflects the forces sustained at racing speed.

[pdac]

Here’s one I found on the FIA website.

Jp

 

Looks like the map of the Zork maze that I drew years ago.

[Flyingfinn]

RedBull made the complaint but go on

I see. And what about the Ferrari?