169 replies to this topic

[AlexPrime]

Which is what this forum is typically for.
Red Bull this year, have drivers at opposite ends of the performance scale; Verstappen has been the best performing driver, Perez the worst*. (Yes, THE worst imo)
You can’t average car performance when the two drivers are oceans apart. Had they been in the same tier of drivers, fine, but not when Perez is the other one.

*of the ones in the grid now. If we include Sargeant, Perez is no longer bottom, and maybe Zhou should be put below Perez.

Stroll IMO is the worst, but I believe that as Checo underperforms, Max overperforms. Red Bull have the best and the worst of the drivers in the top 4 teams.

[SenorSjon]

https://f1store.form...RID:i-r0c2:po-2

Only £99 for an official poster if there’s any mugs with cash to spare

 

120 euro's for a 50x70cm print from the Czech Republic (known for cheap printing). Lol.

[F1Johnny]

I don't think Schumacher and Senna and Hamilton for instance are regarded as drivers like "everyone else". 

 

When Hamilton won his fourth title a similar thread like this one reached 6 pages in 24 hours. This one for Max is on it's third page still. Wheter it's people's dislike for him I don't know, but sometimes I think people just will not recognise his talent.

 

At least Norris does.

 

Somewhat fair, but Schumacher did look like everyone else when he returned to F1.  Senna wasn't around past his prime and Hamilton, while still up there with the best, I don't think he can beat Max in an equal car now - 5 years ago, yes, but not now, at 40.

 

But point taken, maybe not like "everyone else", cuz I'm not talking about Zhou when I say that, but not as quick as the wunderkind.

[vlado]

"beatable in equal cars" 

 

https://www.motorspo...-equal-f1-cars/

[Venom]

"beatable in equal cars"

https://www.motorspo...-equal-f1-cars/

Sainz has been outscored by 29 points since the summer break.

Beatable in equal cars, but not in a better car apparently.

[A3]

Sainz has been saying this since they were teamed up at Toro Rosso 

[A3]

Somewhat fair, but Schumacher did look like everyone else when he returned to F1.

Yeah, but that's the same for everybody. Not just Max. Alonso is in the midfield, Hamilton is outscored by Russell, Max can't win races at the moment. Once you don't have a car that can win, it's easy to see a driver as "the same as everyone else".

And look at Albon, everybody is saying how good he's doing at Williams, outperforming the car. But he's stuck there.

It's a very weird sport in this regard.

[FullOppositeLock]

"beatable in equal cars" 

 

https://www.motorspo...-equal-f1-cars/

I don't really disagree with Sainz' assessment there. In roughly equal machinery Max can be beaten on occasion. Over a season though, all those drivers capable of beating him in an individual race have off days where they make mistakes (or their teams do), so over a season nobody comes close to matching Max for consistency. Also I don't think any of those drivers could have done in the RB20 what Max did this year, certainly not from race six onwards. People can point at Perez being one of the weakest drivers on the grid, but much the same was said about the likes of Gasly and Albon after they were trounced by Max, yet they both redeemed their reputations after moving on. Norris had the chance to become Max' team mate and politely declined; he knows the score and I think most drivers on the grid do.

[Alexis*27]

 

 

much the same was said about the likes of Gasly and Albon after they were trounced by Max, yet they both redeemed their reputations after moving on

Except Albon's stock has diminished due to having slower teammates until now. And it's easier to redeem your reputation in the midfield where nobody is watching   

You can lump F1 drivers into 5 categories in my opinion (although they're all obviously excellent).

 

Gasly and Albon are solid 3 star drivers in my opinion.

 

MV, LH, CL, FA and GR are the only 5 star drivers on the grid at the moment in my view.

That's why it's infuriating to see Max paired with 3 star drivers year in year out.

[PrinceBira]

Except Albon's stock has diminished due to having slower teammates until now. And it's easier to redeem your reputation in the midfield where nobody is watching   

You can lump F1 drivers into 5 categories in my opinion (although they're all obviously excellent).

 

Gasly and Albon are solid 3 star drivers in my opinion.

 

MV, LH, CL, FA and GR are the only 5 star drivers on the grid at the moment in my view.

That's why it's infuriating to see Max paired with 3 star drivers year in year out.

 

As much as every fan would like to 5* drivers to be paired, would you do that if you were the team boss of Red Bull? 

 

If Verstappen and let's say Leclerc would have been driving the RB this year, I think it's very doubtful that either of them would have won the WDC. They would have taken too many points of eachother....

 

They would have won the WCC, but tbh it seems RB cares much more about the WDC. 

[FullOppositeLock]

Except Albon's stock has diminished due to having slower teammates until now. And it's easier to redeem your reputation in the midfield where nobody is watching   

You can lump F1 drivers into 5 categories in my opinion (although they're all obviously excellent).

 

Gasly and Albon are solid 3 star drivers in my opinion.

 

MV, LH, CL, FA and GR are the only 5 star drivers on the grid at the moment in my view.

That's why it's infuriating to see Max paired with 3 star drivers year in year out.

Your 1 to 5 star categories as well as who is in it is completely arbitrary. I wouldn't have Russell ahead of Norris for instance, and based on this year you'd have to question including this late career version of Lewis and Alonso in 5* anymore.

 

Also, 2 of the 3* (or lower?) drivers, as you call them, that Max gets paired with have won races in midtable cars and generally proven to be pretty damn serviceable F1 drivers. I reckon you'd pair some of your 4* or 5* drivers with Max they'd soon drop down a level or two in your ranking too.

 

To get back on topic, I would have loved to have seen Sainz in the Red Bull next year. I think it could have worked well for the team too. Carlos seems quite confident and intelligent so might have been able to cope with the pressure of featuring next to Max a bit better than most. Shame we won't see it.

[AlexPrime]

IMO to bear a rival with a slower car is at least as impressive as beating a fast teammate

[F1Johnny]

Yeah, but that's the same for everybody. Not just Max. Alonso is in the midfield, Hamilton is outscored by Russell, Max can't win races at the moment. Once you don't have a car that can win, it's easy to see a driver as "the same as everyone else".

And look at Albon, everybody is saying how good he's doing at Williams, outperforming the car. But he's stuck there.

It's a very weird sport in this regard.

 

The Albon situation is a great example of a driver looking like everyone else because a wunderkind comes along. Franco has shown him up a bit.

 

Kimi came back and I think held his own compared to Schumacher and even Alonso IMO. Kimi went on a bit too long however.

[AlexPrime]

The Albon situation is a great example of a driver looking like everyone else because a wunderkind comes along. Franco has shown him up a bit.

 

Kimi came back and I think held his own compared to Schumacher and even Alonso IMO. Kimi went on a bit too long however.

Fred crushed Kimi at Ferrari, it was depressing

[F1Johnny]

Fred crushed Kimi at Ferrari, it was depressing

 

I was comparing Kimi's come back to Alonso's come back, not when they were teammates.

[Myrvold]

IMO to bear a rival with a slower car is at least as impressive as beating a fast teammate

But what counts as "slower car" and "fastest" car?
Hasn't all the top 4 teams had periods of the season as fastest, second fastest, third fastest and fourth fastest?

[PayasYouRace]

But what counts as "slower car" and "fastest" car?
Hasn't all the top 4 teams had periods of the season as fastest, second fastest, third fastest and fourth fastest?

Come on, we all know the answer is “whatever makes my favourite driver look better”.

[PrinceBira]

Come on, we all know the answer is “whatever makes my favourite driver look better”.

Or the answer could be ‘compare average qualifying pace and race pace’ per race weekend to determine any trends over the course of the season

Shame the discussion is being driven into fan prejudice territory. Why not discuss the content instead of alleged biasses of others, thereby devaluating their positions?

[AlexPrime]

But what counts as "slower car" and "fastest" car?
Hasn't all the top 4 teams had periods of the season as fastest, second fastest, third fastest and fourth fastest?

Overall WCC standings are good indication. 

[PrinceBira]

Overall WCC standings are good indication.

Only if you have two strong drivers….