49 replies to this topic

[Spillage]

How has Sainz escaped a penalty for the pit lane thing?

[Pieter]

Crossing the pit lane bollard on the 'wrong' side and then returning to track was never an offence, as far as I know.

Perez vs. Hamilton Turkey 2021 @ 28s

[PayasYouRace]

Crossing the pit lane bollard on the 'wrong' side and then returning to track was never an offence, as far as I know.

 

Ted read out the race director’s race notes. It would only be allowed in cases of “force majeure”.

[SophieB]

Ted read out the race director’s race notes. It would only be allowed in cases of “force majeure”.

I know the ship has sailed now, but seriously, what was up with this then because no way did that move constitute force majeure.

[PayasYouRace]

I know the ship has sailed now, but seriously, what was up with this then because no way did that move constitute force majeure.

Maybe FIArrari is back?

[Muppetmad]

I know the ship has sailed now, but seriously, what was up with this then because no way did that move constitute force majeure.

With how close the constructors' title fight is, I'm surprised McLaren haven't filed an appeal for this.

[SophieB]

Maybe FIArrari is back?

haha, the Fi(a)x is in! 
But seriously, I wonder why.

[brucewayne]

With how close the constructors' title fight is, I'm surprised McLaren haven't filed an appeal for this.

Good for Ferrari, but would be classic McLaren to let it slip.

[PayasYouRace]

With how close the constructors' title fight is, I'm surprised McLaren haven't filed an appeal for this.

McLaren should protest the result. Absolutely.

[Muppetmad]

Protest! That's the word I was looking for, thank you.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

I know the ship has sailed now, but seriously, what was up with this then because no way did that move constitute force majeure.

Stewards at the casino after the first 5 laps.

[Ruudbackus]

haha, the Fi(a)x is in! 
But seriously, I wonder why.

On dutch television they said you can move from left to right over the line but not from right to left. No clue if thats true and I don't know if there was a bollard (like where Hamilton got his penalty in germany I believe)

[SophieB]

I suspect RaceFans has the answer:

 

 

The FIA’s rules over pit entry are governed by their International Sporting Code, Appendix L, Chapter 4, Article 4 (d). This states that “except in cases of force majeure… any part of a tyre of a car entering the pit lane must not cross, in any direction, any line painted on the track for the purpose of separating cars entering the pit lane from those on the track.”

While Sainz’s tyres clearly crossed the dividing line between the pit entry and the race track, Sainz did not commit a breach as he never entered the pit lane. Had Sainz crossed the dividing line and still entered the pit lane to complete his pit stop, that would likely have resulted in a penalty.

 

 

 

 

https://www.racefans...ules-explained/

[F1 Mike]

I suspect RaceFans has the answer:





https://www.racefans...ules-explained/

So the important text there is "any part of a tyre of a car entering the pit lane..."

and he didn't enter the pitlane.

A strange one I guess.

[Disgrace]

They have a rule for the not dangerous thing, but they don’t have a rule for the dangerous thing. Got it.

[Red5ive]

Ferrari International Assistance.

[DJH63]

With how close the constructors' title fight is, I'm surprised McLaren haven't filed an appeal for this.

Wouldn’t really be worth it, best case they gain 2 points in the constructors and Ferrari aren’t actually that close to them - RB are as close to Ferrari as Ferrari are to McLaren.

[DJH63]

I suspect RaceFans has the answer:

https://www.racefans...ules-explained/

Coming back to this, it feels a bit of a reach - the rule in questions states that the outside of the tyre should not extend beyond the dividing lane separating ‘the pitlane from the track’.

 

The race director notes for the event state that for safety reasons the pit entry includes the painted divider before the SC1 line.

 

Therefore it seems like a bit of a grey area as you can make the case that you’re not in the pitlane until you cross the pit entry line - but in that scenario you can’t rejoin the track without going backwards due to fixed dividers, so Chapter 4.4 becomes redundant - whilst the race director notes seems to include pit entry as being part of the pitlane and so 4.4 applies.

 

TLDR, clearly the spirit of the written rule means it’s a penalty, but as usual for the FIA, the rule might be written sufficiently vaguely to not be applicable here.

[SophieB]

Coming back to this, it feels a bit of a reach - the rule in questions states that the outside of the tyre should not extend beyond the dividing lane separating ‘the pitlane from the track’.

 

The race director notes for the event state that for safety reasons the pit entry includes the painted divider before the SC1 line.

 

Therefore it seems like a bit of a grey area as you can make the case that you’re not in the pitlane until you cross the pit entry line - but in that scenario you can’t rejoin the track without going backwards due to fixed dividers, so Chapter 4.4 becomes redundant - whilst the race director notes seems to include pit entry as being part of the pitlane and so 4.4 applies.

 

TLDR, clearly the spirit of the written rule means it’s a penalty, but as usual for the FIA, the rule might be written sufficiently vaguely to not be applicable here.

Well, it’s an odd one. I was listening to R5 and they had read the rules/regs and figured it a slam dunk, and it seems like Ted had independently concluded much the same, judging from PAYR’s post upthread. But I think RaceFans are right in that this is nonetheless going to be what gets cited if/when someone asks the FIA what was up with that.

[Broekschaap]

I expected a penalty. But apparently they consider it just to be still part of the normal track. And there is no reason Sainz can't use that. Like in Brazil. Race directors event notes vary over the time on this specific point. But i can only find Azerbajian (12.2) that says you have to pit when you are between the lines. So i think it is a case of because they don't say you can't, you can.

 

https://www.fia.com/...- Race Director's%20Event%20Notes.pdf

 

edit: for some reason the link to Baku event notes don't copy

Edited by Broekschaap, 24 November 2024 - 10:36.

[jcbc3]

Didn't see the race and only read about it here. Is there a similarity between this and Yuki getting two penalties in Austria a couple of years ago for the slightest brush of a painted line?

[SenorSjon]

Funny McLaren made a fuss about anything Red Bull/Verstappen this season, but let this one slide by.

[Sterzo]

Well, it’s an odd one. I was listening to R5 and they had read the rules/regs and figured it a slam dunk, and it seems like Ted had independently concluded much the same, judging from PAYR’s post upthread. But I think RaceFans are right in that this is nonetheless going to be what gets cited if/when someone asks the FIA what was up with that.

So are they saying Sainz crossed the line to move from the pit lane to the track, but the rule only forbids crossing it from the track? - Confused of London.

[arrysen]

The Sky crew after the race (might have been Ted) said that the race director dealt with it as a track limits violation, so was considered wrong, but they get a number of those in a race prior to a penalty being issued.

[ArchieTech]

Just remembered an instance of this before: it was Hamilton in Germany 2018. In that instance he and the team were summoned to the stewards but ended with a reprimand:

 

https://www.formula1...LWMA8SoQIskwWEK

https://www.autospor...297822/5297822/

 

Part of the mitigation was that it was under SC conditions and was considered there was no danger to another driver.

[Deeq]

So are they saying Sainz crossed the line to move from the pit lane to the track, but the rule only forbids crossing it from the track? - Confused of London.

No, it means those that are entering the pit cant have a tyre in the race track after divider line. Means you have to abort your pitstop if you screw up..
But those on the track can have a tyre cross that line.
May be that "we were not ready" was clever save by Sainz/race engineer..

Edited by Deeq, 24 November 2024 - 17:15.

[jonpollak]

The NEW guy had ONE JOB today...

ONE JOB.

 

How the hell does race control legitimise that move???

 

Nope, No call is not the right call... at all.

 

Jp

[Analog]

No, it means those that are entering the pit cant have a tyre in the race track after divider line. Means you have to abort your pitstop if you screw up..
But those on the track can have a tyre cross that line.
May be that "we were not ready" was clever save by Sainz/race engineer..

I seem to remember that the part marked with / / / / / / was always illegal, did Sainz go there?

EDIT: With "always" I meant regardless in which direction you do it rather than it being banned from the beginning of time.

Edited by Analog, 24 November 2024 - 17:29.

[registered]

The NEW guy had ONE JOB today...
ONE JOB.

How the hell does race control legitimise that move???

Nope, No call is not the right call... at all.

Jp

Following the rules as written is the right call.

If the stewards think a rule was broken they could investigate without it being forwarded by race control on their own volition

[ANF]

I suspect RaceFans has the answer:
 
 
 
 
 
https://www.racefans...ules-explained/

Hey, that's what I said! Sort of.
 

 

Crossing the pit lane bollard on the 'wrong' side and then returning to track was never an offence, as far as I know.

Perez vs. Hamilton Turkey 2021 @ 28s

Yeah, unless I'm mistaken I think you need event specific instructions to make it an offence. The general white line rules are only for cars entering and leaving the pit lane.

 

[ensign14]

The NEW guy had ONE JOB today...

ONE JOB.

 

 

Two jobs.

 

He also had to decide to penalise Piastri for being in his grid slot.
 

[arrysen]

Two jobs.

 

He also had to decide to penalise Piastri for being in his grid slot.
 

Except that isn't the race director's job - the stewards make that call.

[Myrvold]

The NEW guy had ONE JOB today...
ONE JOB.
 
How the hell does race control legitimise that move???
 
Nope, No call is not the right call... at all.
 
Jp

Two jobs.
 
He also had to decide to penalise Piastri for being in his grid slot.

 
Regardless of it being the right call or not the right call.
 
It is not his call...

Edited by Myrvold, 24 November 2024 - 22:15.

[jonpollak]

Ok
I was in the moment and thought… 4 wheels over the line…

Jp

[CoolBreeze]

The FIA is known for being moronic and ignoring many stuff as well as penalizing non logic stuff. I don't see what the issue is here. Normal day in the office.

[krea]

Not all pit entries will cause a penalty when aborting it. It’s actually something which is specifically stated before a weekend.

[prty]

Crossing the pit lane bollard on the 'wrong' side and then returning to track was never an offence, as far as I know.

Perez vs. Hamilton Turkey 2021 @ 28s
https://www.youtube....h?v=vBsnDIFbbb4

According to the rules it's only an offense if you enter the pit line, and there are many examples like the one above where it was handled like in Vegas.
Interesting that some decided to ignore this and keep going on. Maybe they have trouble reading?

[RedRabbit]

According to the rules it's only an offense if you enter the pit line, and there are many examples like the one above where it was handled like in Vegas.
Interesting that some decided to ignore this and keep going on. Maybe they have trouble reading?

I think it was Singapore this year that Alonso got stung for locking his brakes into the pit entry and crossed the line back onto the track.

The difference is that Alonso crossed back from the track into the pit lane. If he kept going round again he would have been fine.

[PayasYouRace]

According to the rules it's only an offense if you enter the pit line, and there are many examples like the one above where it was handled like in Vegas.
Interesting that some decided to ignore this and keep going on. Maybe they have trouble reading?

At what point are you considered to have entered the pit lane? Sainz was in the pit lane IMO. He’d already left the track proper before he abandoned, which is why he was cutting the corner during his move.

[Broekschaap]

Where it says pitlane starts. But i would consider the orange part like you did.

 

[Henri Greuter]

Maybe FIA feels sorry for Sainz to be kicked out of Ferrari and the chance of any podium places, let alone victories for the forseeable future so they took a pity to him and let him get away with this offence and at least keep a podium, perhaps his last one, for who knows how long?

[PayasYouRace]

Where it says pitlane starts. But i would consider the orange part like you did.

I think that’s case closed. Sainz wasn’t in what the FIA consider the pit lane proper. So it was treated as a track limits violation. Probably should be looked at in future.

Poor job of communicating the situation by Sky’s broadcast team.

[Stephane]

Yeah, the cone rule was made for the late pit-ins decisions. Maybe it's time to look at these non pit ins.

 

Funny we had Ocon and Sainz making different decisions this time. (although i don't know when Ocon was told 'not ready')

[PayasYouRace]

A more comprehensive rule for the “commitment cone” would probably be a good safety change.

Alternatively you could have an “escape route” at tracks with long out entries. Something like what we have in the large runoff areas. I’m thinking Damon Hill at Spa in 1996, if anyone remembers that.

[mkad]

Do we have a video of what Sainz did?

[Stephane]

Was it the days when you had to make a full stop before rejoigning the track after cutting the chicane ? (also in Monaco)

[Stephane]

Do we have a video of what Sainz did?

 

It was even shown live

[PayasYouRace]

Was it the days when you had to make a full stop before rejoigning the track after cutting the chicane ? (also in Monaco)

Not sure about that or when that was.

The Damon Hill incident I’m talking about was when the SC was called at Spa in 1996. Damon was entering the pits and was told at the last minute to stay out, as the team were ready for Villeneuve. As he was already in the pit entrance, he threaded his way through the escape route at the end of the Bus Stop Chicane. Lost him a ton of positions as he then had to pit a lap later, when the field had bunched behind the safety car.

[jonpollak]

Following the rules as written is the right call.

AND..They have now changed the rule that made me look like a doofus... to a rule that now vindicates my point of view.
 
ALL TRACKS must now follow the same directive. IF you've crossed the line that marks the entry to the pit lane(In Lost Wages case it was that blue line) you cannot cross back onto the track.

 
Jp

[eibyyz]

Sainz did a Newgarden.  (Hey, it worked once...)