54 replies to this topic

[Macca]

Is to be auctioned off on his behalf by Tom Hartley Jnr.

https://www.motorspo...ium=Zoho Social

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 01 December 2024 - 18:18.

[Vitesse2]

Amazing what can happen when you get hit with a £652 million tax bill from HMRC and a £330 million fine.

[Tom Glowacki]

I can't afford this and the Indianapolis Museum auction so close together.

[mfd]

Why do you think they're going to be auctioned 'Macca'? 

 

[arttidesco]

I wonder how much Count Rossi will be prepared to bid for a BT44B or BT45 that he sponsored many moons ago 

 

Also of interest will be how much the Crosthwaite and Gardner car will go for 

[mfd]

Hello Arti   what do you mean 'bid'? They are not being auctioned

[arttidesco]

Hello Arti   what do you mean 'bid'? They are not being auctioned

 

Howdy mfd, maybe re read post #1

 

 

Is to be auctioned off on his behalf by Tom Hartley Jnr.

https://www.motorspo...ium=Zoho Social

Paul M

 

 

[Charlieman]

Presumably other owners of museum quality GP cars have been warned that 2025 will not be a good year for selling...

[B Squared]

Howdy mfd, maybe re read post #1

The article states that the cars will be individually sold. Bernie wants to know the cars' destination.

[mfd]

As B Squared points out in the article, "They are to be sold individually by Ecclestone’s close business associate..." 

[BRG]

So which are the most prized assets here?  The Thin Wall Special, and the Moss Vanwall, and the fan-car strike me as the most significant.

[GregThomas]

The two Ferraris at the front of the pic IMO.

 

The 375 is one of I think two survivors and the early ex Hawthorne Dino is probably unique.

 

The only other Dino I know of is the later version and has gone from V6 to V12 to V6 again

Maybe the Lancia D50.depending how original it is.

[B Squared]

Anyone know the history of his 'Silver Arrows' Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union?

Edit: I now notice arti already mentioned the Auto Union.

Edited by B Squared, 02 December 2024 - 12:03.

[Macca]

I wish I had worded it more precisely, as I have caused the usual pedants’ revolt…

Sold, not auctioned - ok?

Getting back to the subject, rather than shooting the messenger; it is nice to see them called “F1 and GP” cars, as some of them pre-date the WC and others are from the years when it was for F2 cars.

We know the Lancia-Ferraris are recreations by Jim Stokes Workshops, but I am doubtful about some of the other red ones despite their Classiche approval. What say the experts?

Paul M

[Steve L]

A nice collection...

 

I find some of the choices strange for Bernie though.  I would have thought there are a number of Bugatti types other than the Type 54 which would make a lot more sense in a collection of GP cars? Type 35, 51, even 59?

 

And the early Maserati are not strictly (and were not originally) Grand Prix cars?

 

Or maybe he had enough money, and just liked 'em 

[Dutchy]

The two Ferraris at the front of the pic IMO.

 

The 375 is one of I think two survivors and the early ex Hawthorne Dino is probably unique.

 

The only other Dino I know of is the later version and has gone from V6 to V12 to V6 again

Maybe the Lancia D50.depending how original it is.

 

 

 

There are no surviving Hawthorn era Dinos. I presume the car in the collection is the ex Henry Ford Museum car later acquired by Anthony Bamford and afterwards Robin Lodge.

There are two other surviving Dinos - the ex Pat Hoare V12 powered car (now sadly an FIA compliant V6) and the car in the Biscaretti Museum which was bodied for the first time only recently.

 

The D50s will be replicas as the two originals are in the Biscaretti Museum and Fiats's own collection.

Edited by Dutchy, 02 December 2024 - 14:12.

[BRG]

I find some of the choices strange for Bernie though.  I would have thought there are a number of Bugatti types other than the Type 54 which would make a lot more sense in a collection of GP cars? Type 35, 51, even 59?

Bernie didn't get filthy rich by paying over the odds and Bugattis cost a LOT.

[FastReader]

I wish I had worded it more precisely, as I have caused the usual pedants’ revolt…

Sold, not auctioned - ok?

[68targa]

It's an impressive collection and I do hope that when sold the new owners will show them off at selected events for all to see.  Maybe Mr Hartley will hurry up and finish his new showroom and have some of these on display. I hope so, it;s just round the corner from me !

[f1steveuk]

The vast majority of these were outside my office at Biggin Hill. I'm not surprised that some are being sold off, though the Vanwall is a bit of a surprise. I think the maths have been done to raise enough, without selling too much, as things like the McLaren M23 8/2 aren't on the list of 69 cars that are going. 

 

To be honest, these cars won't make a big dent in the collection once gone.

[MCS]

So 69 cars in total - are they all Formula One cars?  More interestingly perhaps, how many are left once the 69 have gone?

[FastReader]

So 69 cars in total - are they all Formula One cars? More interestingly perhaps, how many are left once the 69 have gone?

My reading of that article is that this represents his entire collection of Grand Prix cars and he's selling the lot.

[Nathan]

I find some of the choices strange for Bernie though.  I would have thought there are a number of Bugatti types other than the Type 54 which would make a lot more sense in a collection of GP cars? Type 35, 51, even 59?

 

The collection has been slowly sold for some time now. He sold 50 in one go back in 2007.  There were a few other auctions around this time he would sell batches through.  Had one heck of a Mercedes collection.

RM Auction Automobiles of London - Gallery 01

 

 

Why do you think they're going to be auctioned 'Macca'? 

 

He is 95 and has no kids interested in cars, and there is zero chance he can pass without knowing how much he made on them. It would eat him until his last breath.

 

So which are the most prized assets here?  The Thin Wall Special, and the Moss Vanwall, and the fan-car strike me as the most significant.

 

Fan car, or the pre war Merc GP.

Edited by Nathan, 02 December 2024 - 17:10.

[doc knutsen]

The two Ferraris at the front of the pic IMO.

 

The 375 is one of I think two survivors and the early ex Hawthorne Dino is probably unique.

 

The only other Dino I know of is the later version and has gone from V6 to V12 to V6 again

Maybe the Lancia D50.depending how original it is.

If the 1958 Dino 246, allegedly ex- Hawthorn, is the car in the picture, surely that is a 1959 Dino 246 rather than a 1958 one? Mike is said to have asked Sig. Ferrari to let him buy his Championship winner when he retired, but was turned down. And all I have ever read, after crying my 9-year old eyes out in January 1959 over what happened to my hero on the Guildford by-pass, is that all the 1958 team cars were broken up, in time-honoured Ferrari style. Does anubody know the story here?

Edited by doc knutsen, 05 December 2024 - 19:48.

[Doug Nye]

Not one true 1958 Dino 246/F1 survived in that year's form.

 

DCN

[Thundersports]

I wonder how much Count Rossi will be prepared to bid for a BT44B or BT45 that he sponsored many moons ago 

 

Also of interest will be how much the Crosthwaite and Gardner car will go for 

Count Rossi already owns one.

[Pullman99]

For me, the most interesting car is the Ferrari 312/010 from 1966 that is shown alongside other Ferrari F1 cars in several of the press pics.   The "return to power" 3 litre Formula One in 1966 really began my interest in all aspects of motorsport but especially circuit racing although I had followed the sport before then.    The excellent Old Racing Cars website records 312/010 as being the John Surtees Belgian Grand Prix winner.   I am sure it will find a good home and it would be great to see this car in public.

[doc knutsen]

Not one true 1958 Dino 246/F1 survived in that year's form.

 

DCN

Thank you. Much appreciated.

[irvine99]

[a_tifoosi]

[brands77]

I remember seeing the Thinwall Special at the Donington Collection. Did Bernie buy some (all) of the collection when it was sold off? If he didn't buy all of it, where did they all go?

I thought it was great museum and it was never crowded. It was a really great shame when it shut down.

[a_tifoosi]

[Doug Nye]

I remember seeing the Thinwall Special at the Donington Collection. Did Bernie buy some (all) of the collection when it was sold off? If he didn't buy all of it, where did they all go?

I thought it was great museum and it was never crowded. It was a really great shame when it shut down.

 

Mr E has the previous version of the 'ThinWall Special' to the big, smooth-bodied final variant which went with the bulk of the Collection cars to their new, and current, anonymous owner sur le Continent (not Bernie). Your comment that the museum "was never crowded" says it all...unfortunately.

 

As for any reference to Mr E's Ferrari Dino 246/60 lookalike as offered today being the "Mike Hawthorn World Championship car from 1958"...  if this claim has really been made then I am lost for words....which is fairly rare.

 

Apart from being V6 front-engined and painted red, the car presented differs in chassis design, suspension design, brake design (until very late in '58), transaxle orientation, drive-line offset, fuel tankage and body design...quite apart from this entity's date of original manufacture and assembly.  

 

If it's Mr E's car that I recall, it won its class one year at the Goodwood Festival hill-climb, driven with his permission by Robert Brooks.  During the previous week I'd spent a happy couple of hours shaking it down round the Goodwood Motor Circuit.  Lovely thing - but 'Mike Hawthorn history' - untrue.

 

Perhaps justifiably, 'Caveat emptor' springs to mind.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 17 December 2024 - 20:29.

[ensign14]

Apart from being V6 front-engined and painted red, the car presented differs in chassis design, suspension design, brake design (until very late in '58), transaxle orientation, drive-line offset, fuel tankage and body design...quite apart from this entity's date of original manufacture and assembly.  

 

 

Yeah, but other than that...
 

[lyntonh]

Some rather eyebrow-raising sales-pitch hyperbole in that video on the Brabhams.

 

Bernie, you built the Brabham brand.....

 

BT44D...regarded as the most beautiful Formula One car of all time ....

 

REALLY ?

 

The gushing continued...on and on....

 

I bailed about half way through...

Edited by lyntonh, 17 December 2024 - 21:53.

[BRG]

Not sure what else you would expect from a couple of used car dealers seeking to big up a bunch of old cars for sale!

[Vitesse2]

Er, while we may all have our own opinions regarding Messrs Ecclestone and Hartley, perhaps we can keep them to ourselves and - as DCN has done - concentrate purely on the cars? I have already had to remove a potentially libellous comment from this thread ...

[john aston]

Nothing I said was libellous - I'm not stupid - and it's a shame that honest opinions about a man who has caused such controversy  are removed. . 

[Vitesse2]

'Potentially libellous', John. My PMs are open if you wish to discuss it. From the general forum rules:
 

 

• Any feedback about moderation policy is welcome by private message. We will always consider and discuss reasonable ideas.
• Discussion of moderator actions is therefore discouraged in the forum itself even where they involve you. If you wish to enquire why your post was deleted or edited, contact one of us via PM.

 

[Pullman99]

As for any reference to Mr E's Ferrari Dino 246/60 lookalike as offered today being the "Mike Hawthorn World Championship car from 1958"...  if this claim has really been made then I am lost for words....which is fairly rare.

 

Perhaps justifiably, 'Caveat emptor' springs to mind.

 

DCN

Just revisited the You Tube Ferrari walkaround.   Not sure they actually claimed Chassis 0003 as being original to solely Mike Hawthorn but - and we're in Trigger's Broom territory here I suspect - that there was a continual history from 1957 to 1959/60 and then multiple ownership, including The Henry Ford Museum(?), through to Mr Ecclestone.   Tom Hartley does make then point that the Bob Houghton built recreation around some original components, listed as 0008R3 in 1960 spec, would be the one to race in historic events.   

 

In terms of originality, and in my view extreme importance, is the sole surviving (in as built and raced form, Ferrari 312.    This is a car that has clearly influenced many in this Forum, not least through its associations with John Frankenheimer's Grand Prix and, with a relatively clear provenance and as a former Grand Prix winner with John Surtees, it should really be safeguarded by a museum.   Possibly even a UK museum?   

Edited by Pullman99, 18 December 2024 - 16:36.

[chr1s]

Anyone else notice the rather odd looking rollover hoop on one of the BT48s? It's higher than in period and in bare aluminium, as if it has been added on later.

[Gary C]

Maybe that car is being used in historic racing?

[chr1s]

Maybe that car is being used in historic racing?

Good luck with that!

[funformula]

Anyone else notice the rather odd looking rollover hoop on one of the BT48s? It's higher than in period and in bare aluminium, as if it has been added on later.

Same with the roll hoop on one of the BT49.

I recall one BT49 raced in Historic F1 (by Joaquim Folch?) with an extended roll hoop. I was under the impression that this is the BT49 that was once owned by Gordon Murray. But the roll hoop extension on the Ecclestone car is looking a little different so most likely a different car.

[funformula]

Interesting choice of words by Bernie Ecclestone regarding Colin Chapman at around 7:00 min in the video... some followers of conspiracy myths might feel confirmed 

 

https://youtu.be/kTLqxahzC3w

[john aston]

"Disappeared " did he ....? I must be a naive simpleton - I thought ACBC  died . I wonder what the Chapman family make of this crass and mischievous comment ?     

Edited by john aston, 24 December 2024 - 16:05.

[Lola5000]

Interesting choice of words by Bernie Ecclestone regarding Colin Chapman at around 7:00 min in the video... some followers of conspiracy myths might feel confirmed 

 

https://youtu.be/kTLqxahzC3w

The Talbot-Lago  T26c #110007, a Lago my father owned in Melbourne in the 50s ..

[GregThomas]

The Talbot-Lago  T26c #110007, a Lago my father owned in Melbourne in the 50s ..

 

Keep buying the Lotto tickets.

[Lola5000]

Keep buying the Lotto tickets.

Money is not the problem .

 

I couldn't be bothered being involved , with the know-alls,hanger ons and bum boys that hang around Historic Motor racing owners & drivers in Australia .

[GregThomas]

Money is not the problem .

 

I couldn't be bothered being involved , with the know-alls,hanger ons and bum boys that hang around Historic Motor racing owners & drivers in Australia .

 

Pre 60 here in NZ is the Vintage Car Club. Marginally better class of associates. But I stopped going to their meetings some years back as invariably I'd get involved sorting someone's problem.

Edited by GregThomas, 25 December 2024 - 06:28.