117 replies to this topic

[messy]

I like Ocon and said as much above, but at the same time have no doubt Gasly is the faster of the two. I don't really get using Monaco as the cut-off for any other reason than that Pierre has been by far the better statistically since.

[Alfisti]

I've always rated ocon but feel between aloha tauri and this yr especially, Gasly has a higher ceiling. He has a half dozen gp a year where his qualy laps are really amazing.

[gowebber]

Gasly said Doohan did a good job especially considering it was his first F1 qualli and him learning about the car setup on a race weekend etc until unfortunately getting traffic on the warm up for his last Q1 run. Keen to see how he goes in this race.

 

"A steady start in Abu Dhabi has seen the 21-year-old build into the weekend well, with progress throughout the three practice sessions.

 

That saw him all but match team-mate Pierre Gasly’s best lap in Free Practice 3.

 

“Honestly, I think he’s been doing well,” Gasly said of his new team-mate.

 

“Obviously, it’s unfortunate, in the end in Q1,I think he had a bit of a poor out lap with the traffic and stuff which didn’t make it easy for him.”

 

Doohan found himself caught out by traffic ahead of his final run in qualifying.

 

He lost time and tyre temperature as the pack backed up in pit lane, and again towards the end of the gap as rivals worked to create space ahead of their flying laps.

 

By the time Doohan started his lap, the car had dropped out of its ideal operating window."
 

https://speedcafe.co...e-a-strong-job/
 

.https://www.planetf1...er-abu-dhabi-gp

Edited by gowebber, 08 December 2024 - 01:25.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

The comments made by Oakes are shocking, especially when Ocon finished P2 in Brazil which hugely helped their cause in the constructors championship. Is that Oakes starting to show his true colours or just being used by his puppet master(Flavio) to be his mouthpiece.

[Wes350]

The comments made by Oakes are shocking, especially when Ocon finished P2 in Brazil which hugely helped their cause in the constructors championship. Is that Oakes starting to show his true colours or just being used by his puppet master(Flavio) to be his mouthpiece.

His attitude is probably because they chalk up that P2 being the result of a strategy call, and no one will willingly give up a podium…

[Clatter]

He left Force India and Manor on good terms.

In fact they did let him do proper good bye with the team and i never heard any employee of Force India or Manor bad mouthing him.

He may be a selfish open wheel driver, probably more than most on track but i don't think he behaved like an ass off the track.

If he was an ass, Toto Wolff would've broken him like he did with Sam Bird or retaliate like he did with Wehrlein when he turned down the Merc seat in FE.

Wolff didn't want him in the merc seat, his attitude might well have played into that.

[DJH63]

Wolff didn't want him in the merc seat, his attitude might well have played into that.

It’s the exact reason he never got a chance at Merc. He wouldn’t play the dutiful #2 giving up track position so it would’ve exploded with Hamilton.

[Anderis]

Well.. why Monaco as the cutoff point, unless you're convinced he's been handicapped by the team since as punishment for that incident

 

I like Ocon and said as much above, but at the same time have no doubt Gasly is the faster of the two. I don't really get using Monaco as the cut-off for any other reason than that Pierre has been by far the better statistically since.

I don't see why the Monaco cut off would be controversial- it's very clear that the team and the driver fell out with each other at that point and that Ocon-Gasly performance dynamics also changed pretty drastically at that point and I don't believe it's a coincidence. Whether it's Ocon who was no longer motivated to give his best for a team that didn't want him anymore or whether it was the team focusing their efforts on the driver who's going to stay and neglecting the one who's about to leave- or a bit of both, something is up and not the way it had been before. Make of that what you will, I just wanted to highlight that up until that point, Ocon had been ahead head-to-head, especially in the races, by a bigger margin than a lot of people realise. 

[Victor]

It’s the exact reason he never got a chance at Merc. He wouldn’t play the dutiful #2 giving up track position so it would’ve exploded with Hamilton.

What do you mean? Hamilton never needed a submissive #2. He even lost the 2016 title for Rosberg.

[DJH63]

What do you mean? Hamilton never needed a submissive #2. He even lost the 2016 title for Rosberg.

The same Rosberg who moved over for him, his only title rival, in Monaco of all places….

[Ben24]

Gasly said Doohan did a good job especially considering it was his first F1 qualli and him learning about the car setup on a race weekend etc until unfortunately getting traffic on the warm up for his last Q1 run. Keen to see how he goes in this race.

 

"A steady start in Abu Dhabi has seen the 21-year-old build into the weekend well, with progress throughout the three practice sessions.

 

That saw him all but match team-mate Pierre Gasly’s best lap in Free Practice 3.

 

“Honestly, I think he’s been doing well,” Gasly said of his new team-mate.

 

“Obviously, it’s unfortunate, in the end in Q1,I think he had a bit of a poor out lap with the traffic and stuff which didn’t make it easy for him.”

 

Doohan found himself caught out by traffic ahead of his final run in qualifying.

 

He lost time and tyre temperature as the pack backed up in pit lane, and again towards the end of the gap as rivals worked to create space ahead of their flying laps.

 

By the time Doohan started his lap, the car had dropped out of its ideal operating window."
 

https://speedcafe.co...e-a-strong-job/
 

.https://www.planetf1...er-abu-dhabi-gp

Doohan showed flashes of potential this weekend but was far from spectacular. His first Q1 run was strong and he was unlucky to get stuck in that group of drivers with Hamilton who couldn't get a proper preparation for their second lap, but I still feel like he could've done better that run.

 

His first stint is the race was pretty average too. Got beat up a bit in wheel to wheel combat over the first few laps, couldn't make any progress through the field and generally looked slow compared to Gasly in free air. His tyre management seemed to be really strong in his second stint though. Even on older tyres he seemed to be at least matching Gasly's pace when he was in clear air.

 

Far from a spectacular debut overall, but showed enough signs of promise to think he can be a solid driver.

[Ben24]

I don't see why the Monaco cut off would be controversial- it's very clear that the team and the driver fell out with each other at that point and that Ocon-Gasly performance dynamics also changed pretty drastically at that point and I don't believe it's a coincidence. Whether it's Ocon who was no longer motivated to give his best for a team that didn't want him anymore or whether it was the team focusing their efforts on the driver who's going to stay and neglecting the one who's about to leave- or a bit of both, something is up and not the way it had been before. Make of that what you will, I just wanted to highlight that up until that point, Ocon had been ahead head-to-head, especially in the races, by a bigger margin than a lot of people realise. 

I think Monaco was definitely a turning point in terms of the team's preferences with their drivers. From that point on it seemed like the upgrades, team orders and probably the development direction all started going in Gasly's favour. Up until that point that race everything was the complete opposite though. Every single upgrade and team order seemed to go in Ocon's favour in the nearly 1.5 seasons before that race and pretty much every story you read suggested that the Gasly camp was the one upset with the favouritism against them and looking to leave. So I'm not really sure why you'd ignore the second half of this year but not all the races that things went in Ocon's favour.

 

Even if you do ignore the last half of this year though, I still think Gasly was clearly the quicker driver in terms of ultimate pace, especially in race conditions. Even as a newcomer to the team with generally less updates than his team mate, he was leading in overall quali H2H before that and the difference in race pace was clearly much bigger. No doubt Ocon had a few races where he was clearly the quicker driver but there have been about 10 races now where Gasly was at least 3-4 tenths per lap quicker in race pace which pretty much never happened the other way around. Ocon made up for the lack of speed by being amazingly good on first laps and by having better overtaking ability (which imo made him almost as valuable a driver as the quicker Gasly for a midfield team) but I think there's no doubt Gasly is the ultimately quicker driver.

[GhostR]

Doohan showed flashes of potential this weekend but was far from spectacular. His first Q1 run was strong and he was unlucky to get stuck in that group of drivers with Hamilton who couldn't get a proper preparation for their second lap, but I still feel like he could've done better that run.

 

His first stint is the race was pretty average too. Got beat up a bit in wheel to wheel combat over the first few laps, couldn't make any progress through the field and generally looked slow compared to Gasly in free air. His tyre management seemed to be really strong in his second stint though. Even on older tyres he seemed to be at least matching Gasly's pace when he was in clear air.

 

Far from a spectacular debut overall, but showed enough signs of promise to think he can be a solid driver.

 

 

I've not watched the race yet, but I was tracking the live timing. I thought his first stint was better on that basis - it appeared that he was shadowing Tsunoda and effectively bottled up. Unable to get close enough to make a DRS pass, so sat back at around 2-3 seconds behind to stay out of the worst of the dirty air and bided his time. Closed the gap back up over the last 5-6 laps of the stint ahead of the stops. Was a touch unlucky there that Tsunoda was on the identical strategy. Second stint was too slow initially, lost touch with Tsunoda, but later in the stint he found some pace and was able to nearly match Gasly's pace (albeit on 10 lap younger tyres) for much of the back end of the race; but there was a lack of consistency, some rather slow laps in amongst the good ones. Ultimately set a really good personal fastest lap at the end (ever so slightly quicker than Gasly's best).

 

Nothing I saw this weekend that made him stand out. But also nothing that really raises alarm bells given he was dumped in the deep end with no race weekends for a year before hand. Showed in patches that he's got the ability to match Gasly's pace; for a rookie in a one-off end of season appearance that's not too shabby (especially if that second Alpine car was hobbled compared to what Gasly had under him). He'll need to be able to do it consistently from race #1 next season, though ... patches won't be enough.

Edited by GhostR, 09 December 2024 - 17:30.

[messy]

I don't see why the Monaco cut off would be controversial- it's very clear that the team and the driver fell out with each other at that point and that Ocon-Gasly performance dynamics also changed pretty drastically at that point and I don't believe it's a coincidence. Whether it's Ocon who was no longer motivated to give his best for a team that didn't want him anymore or whether it was the team focusing their efforts on the driver who's going to stay and neglecting the one who's about to leave- or a bit of both, something is up and not the way it had been before. Make of that what you will, I just wanted to highlight that up until that point, Ocon had been ahead head-to-head, especially in the races, by a bigger margin than a lot of people realise.

Fair play. I think I’d kinda forgotten just how toxic things got between Ocon and Alpine in the aftermath of Monaco, the moment where it all went wrong and yeah, clearly, something significant changed at this point. Whatever that was. Ocon was excellent when the Alpine was a real dog. I think Gasly is clearly the faster but I do think Ocon probably the better all-rounder and clearly not as terrible as he looked in the later stages of the season (Brazil aside).

Doohan did well in places, he looked quite solid really in the race, running comfortably behind Tsunoda and in that midfield pack. I just wish he’d performed better in qualifying because, after all the rumours swirling round and the precedent set by Bearman, Colapinto et al this season, qualifying last isn’t a good look and maybe gives Briatore the excuse he was looking for.

[Viryfan]

Looking at Oakes and Briatore on french press about Doohan, i'm not sure he will finish the 2025 season or see the summer break as an F1 driver.

[Viryfan]

This french youtube show (with people close to Alpine) heavily implies that Ocon ran close to a Bahrain spec car since the Monaco clash.

Which contributed to a loss of motivation in the latest races.

https://youtu.be/yLW...Pa9Fdcya8Acgds0

Edited by Viryfan, 09 December 2024 - 23:19.

[gowebber]

Doohan showed flashes of potential this weekend but was far from spectacular. His first Q1 run was strong and he was unlucky to get stuck in that group of drivers with Hamilton who couldn't get a proper preparation for their second lap, but I still feel like he could've done better that run.

His first stint is the race was pretty average too. Got beat up a bit in wheel to wheel combat over the first few laps, couldn't make any progress through the field and generally looked slow compared to Gasly in free air. His tyre management seemed to be really strong in his second stint though. Even on older tyres he seemed to be at least matching Gasly's pace when he was in clear air.

Far from a spectacular debut overall, but showed enough signs of promise to think he can be a solid driver.

The Alpine team boss was happy with Jack's debut and there is certainly more than meets the eye with everything that went on with this "baptism of fire" that some of the critics ignore. Best thing he could do was keep his nose clean which he did and keep learning. His first qualli run was not far off Gasly and second obviously compromised to an extent as the team and boss mentioned. I doubt anyone other than maybe Max in the same car was pulling a decent points result from 17th in the race. So a decent first outing all things considered.

"“He’s done a really good job,” said Oakes on Doohan when speaking to the media, including PlanetF1.com.

“I think I said it before the weekend, I felt a bit sorry for him, since his debut was a little bit overshadowed by different knives being put in, but I think he conducted himself brilliantly."

Good article going into more detail.

https://www.planetf1...abu-dhabi-debut

Edited by gowebber, 10 December 2024 - 04:13.

[GhostR]

The Alpine team boss was happy with Jack's debut and there is certainly more than meets the eye with everything that went on with this "baptism of fire" that some of the critics ignore. Best thing he could do was keep his nose clean which he did and keep learning. His first qualli run was not far off Gasly and second obviously compromised to an extent as the team and boss mentioned. I doubt anyone other than maybe Max in the same car was pulling a decent points result from 17th in the race. So a decent first outing all things considered.

"“He’s done a really good job,” said Oakes on Doohan when speaking to the media, including PlanetF1.com.

“I think I said it before the weekend, I felt a bit sorry for him, since his debut was a little bit overshadowed by different knives being put in, but I think he conducted himself brilliantly."

Good article going into more detail.

https://www.planetf1...abu-dhabi-debut

 

There's a positive quote from Gasly re: Doohan's performance in qually as well. Basically first runs Doohan was right on Gasly's pace, second run he was heavily compromised by the car dropping out of the tyre temp window after the team put him out in traffic. IMO they should have given him more time for his second run instead of putting him out in the gaggle trying to be last car across the line to start a flyer.

 

His P3 time was on par, his first Q1 run was on par, and while his race pace was worse due to inconsistency (specifically on the hard, which I think he didn't run much in practice?) the "good" laps compared well with Gasly.

 

If there's any truth in the rumours that the Ocon car was behind on upgrades, then I think Doohan did well enough that he'd be within his right to be mightily P---ed off if Briatore does a dirty on him. As much as Colapinto surprised me with what he achieved with Williams, I still have a feeling that a) the surprise was generated by Albon being off the boil for a few races rather than Colapinto being brilliant, and b) being compared against (and eventually not being as quick as) Albon who, as much as he's been a great driver for Williams, I firmly expect to be behind Sainz next season suggests Colapinto may not actually be the amazing driver the initial hype suggested.