85 replies to this topic

[Wuzak]

Prior to the race, Jenson Button opined that the top 3 drivers in this year's championship were the top 3 on the grid, though not in theorder they lined up.

 

Button put Verstappen as clear #1, with Norris and Russell as equal #2.

 

Do you agree with this assessment?

 

Same drivers, different order?

 

What drivers have been the top 3 this year in your opinion?

[noikeee]

1. Max













2. Charles



3. George
4. Lando

And I'm wondering on whether to add more lines of space between Max and the rest.

Lando has been very fast, specially compared to his increasingly plain overrated teammate, but also wasted far too many races where his car was the best. That Charles is even within a chance of passing him for 2nd in the championship is absurd and speaks volumes of how much better Charles has driven, and meanwhile I'd still put George ahead of Lando too for outpacing Hamilton.

Edited by noikeee, 02 December 2024 - 00:54.

[Frankbullitt]

1. Max
2. Lando
3. Charles

I’d have Russell pretty close behind that, along with Piastri.

[SparkPlug86]

1. Perez
2. Stroll
3. Sargent

[GreenMachine]

I think that Charles is a little too inconsistent for that short list.

[AlexS]

I do not agree.

 

Max 

Leclerc

Russell

 

 I put Lando at mid table. He has been very wasteful.

Edited by AlexS, 02 December 2024 - 03:17.

[vlado]

I think that Charles is a little too inconsistent for that short list.

 

nah...

[danmills]

Max

 

 

 

 

Lando

Charles 

 

Sainz 

 

Russell

 

Both Ferrari drivers have been very consistent,  might not be all the P2s and P3s of Lando but they were always just behind and that's something given Mclaren have had a far superior car.

 

I would salivate at Ferrari getting the WCC because I think they thoroughly deserve it and the Leclerc / Sainz combination is the best they've had in years. It needs rewarding, both drivers quietly delivering.

 

And I'm a Mclaren fan.

Edited by danmills, 02 December 2024 - 03:49.

[Wuzak]

I think that Charles is a little too inconsistent for that short list.

 

More inconsistent than Lando?

[jonklug]

I'd say it's fair but IMHO Leclerc and Russell should be 3rd on equal standing. I agree of course with Max in 1st and Lando in 2nd.

[Marklar]

Max is clearly first. Charles is clearly 2nd (he is almost beating Norris in the far worse car with more reliability issues, this shouldn't be even a debate). P3 is close between George and Lando, I currently have George ahead: he has done more with the car he has compared to Norris, though he's being dragged down by bigger mistakes earlier in the year, would have a shot at P2 otherwise. Then Sainz is clearly 5th, he has been the sole 2nd driver with no catastrophic off. And then it's starting to be messy: Alonso and Hamilton are driving clearly their worst season, but honestly I have them next, not sure in which order yet, so far I had Lewis ahead (in fact at midseason I had him ahead of Sainz just behind his team mate) after Alonso's horrible midseason, but he is trending in the same direction. Then I have the much overhyped Piastri who is with few exceptions miles behind Norris in both quali & race. P9 is for me Hulkenberg who had a strong first half which if he had continued it would have put him in 6th, but he didnt. Gasly after his strong 2nd half joins my top 10. in fact it's close between him and Hulk and I may need to rethink the order P11 is close between Bottas, Ocon, Tsunoda and Albon, currently I have them in that order. Kmag 15. Ricciardo 16. Stroll 17. Sargeant 18. Perez 19. Zhou 20.

Edited by Marklar, 02 December 2024 - 07:05.

[keeppari]

Can't help but to think that if Max or Charles was in that McLaren, it would be on top of the WDC or at least the gap would be way smaller.

George I cannot understand at all. Barely ahead of Lewis who seems to be all but checked out and not getting priority treatment at Merc anymore.

Max with a large gap to Charles and Lando for me.

Edited by keeppari, 02 December 2024 - 07:03.

[Marklar]

Can't help but to think that if Max or Charles was in that McLaren, it would be on top of the WDC or at least the gap would be way smaller.

George I cannot understand at all. Barely ahead of Lewis who seems to be all but checked out and not getting priority treatment at Merc anymore.

Max with a large gap to Charles and Lando for me.

Russell had more misfortune, plus Lewis was solid early in the year and very good in the summer. the points dont tell the whole story, he'd be much further ahead (I guess it compensates 2022 where Lewis was better but had more misfortune)

[Okyo]

Naturally, I might not be objective as a Ferrari fan, but I have absolutely not a single argument to put forward why would someone think that Lando or Russel is a better driver than Charles. Especially this year. Isn't Charles the biggest scorer after the summer break? Isn't he a few points off Lando in the WDC with a hand down lesser car in the majority of the season? The times Lando has just dropped the ball this season. And George had two good races and now he's up there as well? 

I get why Button would say it, but I don't think this deserves an actual debate. Time will tell, but if we're talking 2024, this has no weight at all 

Edited by Okyo, 02 December 2024 - 07:24.

[athlon]

I think that Charles is a little too inconsistent for that short list.

 

This   

[Muppetmad]

The truth is that everybody has been inconsistent this year (albeit Verstappen less so than others). What we need to analyse is the extent and significance of that inconsistency for each driver.

[RPM40]

Max is clearly first. Charles is clearly 2nd (he is almost beating Norris in the far worse car with more reliability issues, this shouldn't be even a debate). P3 is close between George and Lando, I currently have George ahead: he has done more with the car he has compared to Norris, though he's being dragged down by bigger mistakes earlier in the year, would have a shot at P2 otherwise. Then Sainz is clearly 5th, he has been the sole 2nd driver with no catastrophic off. And then it's starting to be messy: Alonso and Hamilton are driving clearly their worst season, but honestly I have them next, not sure in which order yet, so far I had Lewis ahead (in fact at midseason I had him ahead of Sainz just behind his team mate) after Alonso's horrible midseason, but he is trending in the same direction. Then I have the much overhyped Piastri who is with few exceptions miles behind Norris in both quali & race. P9 is for me Hulkenberg who had a strong first half which if he had continued it would have put him in 6th, but he didnt. Gasly after his strong 2nd half joins my top 10. in fact it's close between him and Hulk and I may need to rethink the order P11 is close between Bottas, Ocon, Tsunoda and Albon, currently I have them in that order. Kmag 15. Ricciardo 16. Stroll 17. Sargeant 18. Perez 19. Zhou 20.

 

How do you qualify rating Sainz p5, who has a total of 43.9% of Ferrari's total points well ahead of Piastri who has 45.4% of McLaren's total points?

 

There are only really two logical qualifiers there, Leclerc is significantly stronger than Norris for Sainz to be ahead despite accounting for a lower amount of the teams points, or Piastri is being underrated generally.

 

I'm not necessarily proposing a solution, but at the end of the day in terms of score rate, he's doing better than Sainz as a percent of the team points and I think he's actually starting to get underrated. The way you see people talking you'd swear Norris would be at 60%+ of the total points score not 54.6%.

 

I do completely agree with you though that Leclerc is the clear p2, how can he not be when he's 8 points behind in a generally inferior car, and beating his very experienced team mate by a larger margin.

Edited by RPM40, 02 December 2024 - 07:39.

[Marklar]

How do you qualify rating Sainz p5, who has a total of 43.9% of Ferrari's total points well ahead of Piastri who has 45.4% of McLaren's total points?

There are only really two logical qualifiers there, Leclerc is significantly stronger than Norris for Sainz to be ahead despite accounting for a lower amount of the teams points, or Piastri is being underrated generally.

I'm not necessarily proposing a solution, but at the end of the day in terms of score rate, he's doing better than Sainz as a percent of the team points and I think he's actually starting to get underrated. The way you see people talking you'd swear Norris would be at 60%+ of the total points score not 54.6%.

I do completely agree with you though that Leclerc is the clear p2, how can he not be when he's 8 points behind in a generally inferior car, and beating his very experienced team mate by a larger margin.

Sainz is generally usually closer to Leclerc and more consistent (you dont see him fighting against much slowrr cars while his team mate fights for the win which Piastri often has), who as you also note is driving a better season than Norris. I dont give a big toss about points: they rarely tell the whole story.

though I do agree that Sainz is overrated these days, he isn't as close to Leclerc as some act. like Piastri he has some races where he is quicker,but usually he is behind and sometimes even well behind. let's put it this way: I see the gap between Sainz & Piastri as smaller than between Sainz and the top 4.

[MissingApex]

Easy one for me:

Max
Charles
Lando

[RPM40]

Sainz is generally usually closer to Leclerc and more consistent (you dont see him fighting against much slowrr cars while his team mate fights for the win which Piastri often has), who as you also note is driving a better season than Norris. I dont give a big toss about points: they rarely tell the whole story.

though I do agree that Sainz is overrated these days, he isn't as close to Leclerc as some act. like Piastri he has some races where he is quicker,but usually he is behind and sometimes even well behind. let's put it this way: I see the gap between Sainz & Piastri as smaller than between Sainz and the top 4.

I actually had a look into Piastri vs Norris quali pace and over the last 5 qualifying excluding Brazil’s wet quali you’re under half a tenth average.

I know that’s a bit of a selective stat but I actually think the impression that Norris is well ahead is a bit unfounded. They’re generally pretty close.

I’d agree with you I would rate Sainz ahead overall this year, but you would kind of expect that as he’s close to his 10th season. There is a huge experience delta for Piastri vs every other driver in the top 4 teams and despite that he’s done pretty well.

On pure form I’d agree he’s probably the weakest bar Perez of the winning teams, but the gap is much closer than some people let on. It’s usually Norris making the silly rookie errors while Piastri is generally consistent.

Overall if I had to rate it’s certainly Verstappen then Leclerc, after that it gets harder. Russell is facing Lewis Hamilton after all so it’s a bit difficult to tell how he is going. Norris I would agree is ahead of Sainz but I’m not sure ahead of Russell.

[cyclist]

It is very hard to judge the relative performance of Lando and Charles. I think they both had peaks and valleys this season. They are very close in the WDC and that also says much about their season. I would put them equally second. George is good, but hard to judge as Lewis is so inconsistent.

[noikeee]

I actually had a look into Piastri vs Norris quali pace and over the last 5 qualifying excluding Brazil’s wet quali you’re under half a tenth average.

I know that’s a bit of a selective stat but I actually think the impression that Norris is well ahead is a bit unfounded. They’re generally pretty close.

I’d agree with you I would rate Sainz ahead overall this year, but you would kind of expect that as he’s close to his 10th season. There is a huge experience delta for Piastri vs every other driver in the top 4 teams and despite that he’s done pretty well.

On pure form I’d agree he’s probably the weakest bar Perez of the winning teams, but the gap is much closer than some people let on. It’s usually Norris making the silly rookie errors while Piastri is generally consistent.

Overall if I had to rate it’s certainly Verstappen then Leclerc, after that it gets harder. Russell is facing Lewis Hamilton after all so it’s a bit difficult to tell how he is going. Norris I would agree is ahead of Sainz but I’m not sure ahead of Russell.

Piastri is close to Norris in qualifying, generally

He's also miles behind Norris in the races, generally

I put a lot more weight into the races

[onemoresolo]

George I cannot understand at all. Barely ahead of Lewis who seems to be all but checked out and not getting priority treatment at Merc anymore.

 

 

Don't forget the Spa DQ, which was a 32 point swing in Hamilton's favour. Without that there'd be a 56 point difference, which is sizeable vs a driver of Hamilton's calibre in a midfield* car - motivation questions or not.

 

*4th fastest out of 10 is plainly midfield. 

[Anja]

Russell probably belongs in that 2nd-4th group with Charles and Lando but there's definitely some classic recency bias going on with him lately. He wasn't doing anything that special in the first part of the season and isn't any more consistent or mistake-free than those other two. 

Edited by Anja, 02 December 2024 - 09:00.

[Eff1NZ]

nah...

 

Yah

[F1Frog]

Russell probably belongs in that 2nd-4th group with Charles and Lando but there's definitely some classic recency bias going on with him lately. He wasn't doing anything that special in the first part of the season and isn't any more consistent or mistake-free than those other two.

Russell was consistently beating Hamilton every race at the start of the season, it was impressive. I think Norris/Russell/Leclerc are all very close together but would actually agree with Button’s order. Norris in 2nd seems controversial but I think he has been let down more by his team and bad luck, and hasn’t made more mistakes than Russell and Leclerc but they just aren’t as in the limelight. His racecraft is clearly weaker, but he has better qualifying and race pace in my opinion, which makes more of a difference. Then Sainz/Piastri/Hamilton similarly but again, in that order. Then Alonso, Gasly and Hulkenberg complete the top ten. Next group goes Ocon, Bottas, Tsunoda, Albon with the caveat that I think Ocon has not been in equal cars to Gasly this year, otherwise he would be below those three. Next would be Lawson, then Magnussen and Ricciardo, then Colapinto, then Stroll, Perez, Zhou with Sargeant at the bottom. But I will write this out in more detail and perhaps some changes after more thought, after Abu Dhabi.

[AlexPrime]

Max
Charles/Lando for me
But I wouldn't say I get the sport better than a former world champion

[F1Frog]

Russell was consistently beating Hamilton every race at the start of the season, it was impressive. I think Norris/Russell/Leclerc are all very close together but would actually agree with Button’s order. Norris in 2nd seems controversial but I think he has been let down more by his team and bad luck, and hasn’t made more mistakes than Russell and Leclerc but they just aren’t as in the limelight. His racecraft is clearly weaker, but he has better qualifying and race pace in my opinion, which makes more of a difference. Then Sainz/Piastri/Hamilton similarly but again, in that order. Then Alonso, Gasly and Hulkenberg complete the top ten. Next group goes Ocon, Bottas, Tsunoda, Albon with the caveat that I think Ocon has not been in equal cars to Gasly this year, otherwise he would be below those three. Next would be Lawson, then Magnussen and Ricciardo, then Colapinto, then Stroll, Perez, Zhou with Sargeant at the bottom. But I will write this out in more detail and perhaps some changes after more thought, after Abu Dhabi.

Actually, if Alpine really have had equal cars all year, I would move Gasly up to sixth with Ocon 14th, but I will keep them 9th and 11th because, in my subjective opinion, I don’t believe there is that big a difference between them. Possibly this thread is a bit early though, it should wait until after Abu Dhabi.

[prty]

Alonso and Hamilton are driving clearly their worst season

Alonso has 75% of the team points though, I don't think he's driving so bad

[Wuzak]

Then Sainz is clearly 5th, he has been the sole 2nd driver with no catastrophic off. 

 

Except for Canada.

[Wuzak]

Regarding inconsistency, I think a lot of that is to do with the cars not suiting certain types of track.

 

One week Ferrari will be the ones to beat, the next McLaren, occasionally Mercedes. At the stat of the year, in particular, it was Red Bull.

[Anderis]

Max is clearly first. Charles is clearly 2nd (he is almost beating Norris in the far worse car with more reliability issues, this shouldn't be even a debate). P3 is close between George and Lando, I currently have George ahead: he has done more with the car he has compared to Norris, though he's being dragged down by bigger mistakes earlier in the year, would have a shot at P2 otherwise. Then Sainz is clearly 5th, he has been the sole 2nd driver with no catastrophic off. And then it's starting to be messy: Alonso and Hamilton are driving clearly their worst season, but honestly I have them next, not sure in which order yet, so far I had Lewis ahead (in fact at midseason I had him ahead of Sainz just behind his team mate) after Alonso's horrible midseason, but he is trending in the same direction. Then I have the much overhyped Piastri who is with few exceptions miles behind Norris in both quali & race. P9 is for me Hulkenberg who had a strong first half which if he had continued it would have put him in 6th, but he didnt. Gasly after his strong 2nd half joins my top 10. in fact it's close between him and Hulk and I may need to rethink the order P11 is close between Bottas, Ocon, Tsunoda and Albon, currently I have them in that order. Kmag 15. Ricciardo 16. Stroll 17. Sargeant 18. Perez 19. Zhou 20.

This is not dissimilar to how I would rate them, personally. I may disagree with some little details but I don't think I would move any driver by more than 1-2 places compared to your ranking. I think rating Perez below Sargeant is harsh, though. For me, Perez' Baku drive alone, even if ended with a crash (racing incident according tot he stewards so I don't blame him too hard), rates above Sargeant's entire career.

Edited by Anderis, 02 December 2024 - 11:58.

[Okyo]

Regarding inconsistency, I think a lot of that is to do with the cars not suiting certain types of track.

 

One week Ferrari will be the ones to beat, the next McLaren, occasionally Mercedes. At the stat of the year, in particular, it was Red Bull.

McLaren by far have been the best all rounder. When RedBull dominated the start, they were there. When Ferrari had their highs, they were there just behind. Whenever Mercs had their weekend, it's always McLaren challenging them. 

Not trying to have a go at them, but this season really showed that nor the team, nor Norris were ready to do what it takes to get a WDC. It's not really surprising, just look at Mercs and RBR when they started doing a streak. You really get better at it as a team and as a driver. You don't get distracted by the noise that comes with mounting a challenge. Am sure they'll be a lot better next year. Hopefully Ferrari managed to learn a thing or two as well. 

[Ruudbackus]

For me the top 2 are clear, behind that it's a bit blurry. 

 

1. Verstappen

2. Leclerc

3. Russel/Sainz/Norris

[JHSingo]

Max




Leclerc
Russell
Norris
Sainz
Piastri
Hamilton
Hulkenberg
Alonso/Tsunoda 
 

[Ali623]

Trying to compare Leclerc/Norris:

 

Leclerc 

 

Outperformed by Sainz: AUS, JAP, AUT, GBR, MXC, LVG (6 races)

 

P11 in AUT, P14 in GBR, DNF in CAN (reliability).

 

Otherwise finished top 5 in ever race. 12 podiums (3 wins)

 

 

Norris

 

Outperformed by Piastri: SAU, MON, BEL, ITA, AZE (5 races) - (some arguable ones)

 

DNF in AUT, P10 in QAT.

 

Otherwise finshed top 6 in every race (one P8 in SAU). 12 podiums (3 wins)

 

 

 

Ferrari were better in Bahrain/Saudi - probably in Australia/Japan but this was closer. Then in China onwards McLaren were better on most weekends. Only really the USA/LVG race, Ferrari had clearly better race pace. Some were close.

 

I also personally rate Sainz ahead of Piastri at present.

 

I'd argue based on this, Leclerc has had a better season than Norris.

[PrinceBira]

If you do a thought experiment like this:

 

- You can select either Norris or Leclerc in your car for next year

- You'd know up front that they'd perform exactly as they did in your car this year

 

Who'd you chose?

 

I'm quite certain the majority of people would chose Leclerc. 

[Marklar]

Alonso has 75% of the team points though, I don't think he's driving so bad

his team mate is Stroll, who is beating, matching and being close to him far too often (especially midseason, recently it's more in line again). Yes, it's his worst season by quite a margin. Just compare how he dominated Stroll last year to get an idea (and not points-wise, points rarely tell the whole story as we have already mentioned)

But I can't fault him too much. The car is going backwards and he is 43. When someone regards you being the 7th best driver of the season as being the worst season of your career you are doing pretty okay.

Edited by Marklar, 02 December 2024 - 13:16.

[PlatenGlass]

Verstappen would be top, and then Russell or Leclerc and in 3rd place Leclerc or Russell. I'm not convinced though that anyone behind Verstappen is or will become of the tier as Verstappen, peak Hamilton or peak Alonso. Leclerc has always had "chosen one" vibes, but the thing about him being the best qualifier essentially amounts to a couple of sessions a year that people rave about. Other than that he's solid but doesn't stand out above some others. In races he now seems more the Heidfeld / De Angelis / Frentzen 1999 type, just quietly racking up points and leaving people to wonder where they all came from! He tends to be a bit better than Sainz, and I would have expected more than "a bit".

Edited by PlatenGlass, 02 December 2024 - 14:04.

[tyker]

1. Verstappen

2. Leclerc

3. Norris

[F1Frog]

If you do a thought experiment like this:

- You can select either Norris or Leclerc in your car for next year
- You'd know up front that they'd perform exactly as they did in your car this year

Who'd you chose?

I'm quite certain the majority of people would chose Leclerc.

Leclerc has better racecraft but I think Norris is faster in qualifying and particularly the races, where his excellent tyre management comes into play.

[Colbul1]

Max

 

 

 

 

Lando

Charles 

 

Sainz 

 

Russell

 

Both Ferrari drivers have been very consistent,  might not be all the P2s and P3s of Lando but they were always just behind and that's something given Mclaren have had a far superior car.

 

I would salivate at Ferrari getting the WCC because I think they thoroughly deserve it and the Leclerc / Sainz combination is the best they've had in years. It needs rewarding, both drivers quietly delivering.

 

And I'm a Mclaren fan.

In my opinion I would say this is bang on...also as a McLaren fan.  George has had a great end to the season, but has been inconsistent at times.

[SparkPlug86]

Max

 

 

Lando

 

 

 

 

Charles - Sainz - Russell - Piastri 

[PayasYouRace]

I’m broadly in agreement that Leclerc should slot in in second place between Max and the British duo.

He’s fairly quietly had a very good season, but I guess because he’s not been perceived as a title challenger the limelight has been off him. Opposite to Lando who’s had many brilliant moments but also many poor moments.

George has had a great season but he’s had things go so badly in some of his strongest races. Spa should have been a career highlight win for any driver, and his mechanical failure at Silverstone was gutting. He was also driving so well in Brazil before the race was stopped.

[rocque]

1. Verstappen

2. Russell

3. Leclerc

4. Norris

5. Alonso

6. Hulkenberg

7. Sainz

8. Piastri

9. Gasly

10. Tsunoda

11. Ocon (his car is worse than Gasly's, it's impossible to properly define how much, but he deserves at least 11th)

[Nathan]

I would replace George with Charles.

[Mc_Silver]

Max
Lando
George=Charles

Edited by Mc_Silver, 02 December 2024 - 17:41.

[Muzzyf1]

Leclerc was as good if not better than Russell even Carlos apart from Max the rest is very tight

[Bleu]

Leclerc has been outside top 5 three times, Norris six.

[vlado]

“Inconsistent”