86 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

Bit of a car on the main straight… right in the firing line. Now it’s not the same as a bolt, but remember Massa in Hungary… pieces of car loose on the track can do a lot of damage.

FIA must agree as they had double yellows waved on the straight … but they just waited for it to be hit anyway, and then dealt with the aftermath, so why throw the double yellows at all?

Reason it got hit seems to be Bottas getting blue flags in a double yellow zone… why is that even a thing?! I’d have thought yellow flags would immediately cancel out the need for any blue flags?

I thought they’d have thrown a VSC and then had a marshal at the end of the pitlane who could dart out and pick up the piece. It was probably in one of the ‘best’ positions for retrieval going…

Easy after the event, as ever. Would have been smart to direct all cars through the pitlane under VSC conditions to keep the straight clear too.

Was just strange there was such a long delay. Is that a symptom of having a new race director in place? You think these are the sort of situations he’d have to be 100% clued up on!

[Boxerevo]

Easy after the event, as ever. Would have been smart to direct all cars through the pitlane under VSC conditions to keep the straight clear too.

 

Probably the best solution.

[SenorSjon]

What did they expect to happen? I think they didn't want a VSC to let strategy play out. But leaving it there was idiotic. Everyone through the pitlane but no pitstops allowed would be the most sensible. Perhaps make VSC-stops not count towards the mandatory tire compounds like F2 has done.

[SpeedRacer`]

A VSC was not feasible as the field was too spread out, and they would still be travelling quickly even at VSC speeds at that part of the straight.

 

It was right in the firing line and preventing any overtaking.

 

I thought it was a no-brainer SC, tbh.

[FirstnameLastname]

With a rule book so vast, it’s surprising they don’t have structured ways for dealing with stuff like this.

Can the RD speak direct to all drivers?

‘Object on track, Marshall entering race track - all drivers must divert through the pitlane. No tyre changes allowed’

Or ‘stay to left hand side of the track - speed limit on straight is 50mph’

Edited by FirstnameLastname, 02 December 2024 - 10:28.

[Red5ive]

Mandate a stronger mirror support - they are always falling off because teams make them so flimsy by design.

[noikeee]

I don't know the answer, but flip-flopping between DOUBLE YELLOW!!!!1, to, actually it's fine green flag it nothing happened, to, virtual safety car, doesn't seem like the ideal course of action.

[PayasYouRace]

VSC, cars through the pit lane, Marshall pics it up. Great plan A

If that wasn’t too obvious, and I accept it might not be in the moment… then SC, pick it up when the queue has passed. Totally appropriate plan B.

Both of these entirely feasible with the current ruleset, and not requiring any lateral thinking or anything.

Going green without clearing the debris was the worst possible action.

[FirstnameLastname]

Mandate a stronger mirror support - they are always falling off because teams make them so flimsy by design.

Williams can’t afford any more screws this year

[Broekschaap]

Easy after the event, as ever. Would have been smart to direct all cars through the pitlane under VSC conditions to keep the straight clear too.

 

I think we need a regulation change for that one.

[PayasYouRace]

BTW the going green situation reminds me of the account of the 1986 Detroit Grand Prix.

Nelson Piquet crashed. His car couldn’t be removed from the exit of a blind corner. After a few laps the marshals stopped showing yellow flags. Rene Arnoux then came through that corner at full speed, clipped Nelson’s Williams and taking himself and Thierry Boutsen out in the process.

You’d think stuff like this wouldn’t happen any more.

[FirstnameLastname]

I think we need a regulation change for that one.

It’s probably not worth it because it was just this time it happened to be on the main straight… but you’d think a race director at the highest end of the sport would be able to make such a call without rules needing changed?

Track unsafe… pitlane safe…

I dunno. Again, it’s Easy after the event.

[Anja]

I've been thinking, with all the high-tech around F1 wouldn't it be possible to retrieve small debris with drones (under double yellows or VSC of course)? Less risk than sending marshals out there. 

[FirstnameLastname]

BTW the going green situation reminds me of the account of the 1986 Detroit Grand Prix.

Nelson Piquet crashed. His car couldn’t be removed from the exit of a blind corner. After a few laps the marshals stopped showing yellow flags. Rene Arnoux then came through that corner at full speed, clipped Nelson’s Williams and taking himself and Thierry Boutsen out in the process.

You’d think stuff like this wouldn’t happen any more.

Even with the flags the drivers can be morons though I guess. The double yellows is a bit naff if all you’ve got to do is lift for a milisecond and then floor the throttle again immediately

[danmills]

Radio to all drivers that the next lap is a drive thru the pitlane, solved.

[Broekschaap]

It’s probably not worth it because it was just this time it happened to be on the main straight… but you’d think a race director at the highest end of the sport would be able to make such a call without rules needing changed?

Track unsafe… pitlane safe…

I dunno. Again, it’s Easy after the event.

 

Like i said, i don't think he can.

 

This is in the regulations for a safety car (55.11 and 55.12):

Under certain circumstances the clerk of the course may ask the cars and the safety car to use
the pit lane. .............

Other than when the cars and the safety car are required to use the pit lane, no car may enter
the pits whilst the safety car is deployed unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres.

 

And this for the VSC (56.4):

When initiated during a sprint session or a race, no car may enter the pits whilst the VSC
procedure is in use unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres

Edited by Broekschaap, 02 December 2024 - 10:51.

[AlexPrime]

VSC

[PayasYouRace]

Even with the flags the drivers can be morons though I guess. The double yellows is a bit naff if all you’ve got to do is lift for a milisecond and then floor the throttle again immediately

That’s what killed Jules Bianchi.

[Alexis*27]

A complete farce.

1. Dithering over a dangerous piece of glass and carbon fibre when the obvious thing was to just throw a safety car. It would have been a very short one. The end result was that we went from one piece of glass and carbon to about 100.

2. Yellow flags aren't about safety if "slowing down" means easing back off the throttle by 11% for 0.9 seconds, like Verstappen. There needs to a definition of what slowing down is, because if we're having to spot it on a graph, the rule might as well not be there.

[PayasYouRace]

Like i said, i don't think he can.

This is in the regulations for a safety car (55.11 and 55.12):
Under certain circumstances the clerk of the course may ask the cars and the safety car to use
the pit lane. .............

Other than when the cars and the safety car are required to use the pit lane, no car may enter
the pits whilst the safety car is deployed unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres.

And this for the VSC (56.4):
When initiated during a sprint session or a race, no car may enter the pits whilst the VSC
procedure is in use unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres

I think that settles it then. It should have been a clear cut safety car. It wouldn’t have taken anything special in race control to decide that.

[SophieB]

The FIA have responded about the mirror!
 

In an explanation statement, it said: “Normal practice is for the safety car not to be deployed if there is a small amount of debris, and off the racing line
“The extensive debris after a car hit the mirror and the punctures that occurred shortly after forced the decision on a safety car
“A VSC would not have been a solution, as the cars remain spread-out and there is not sufficient time for a marshal to clear the debris.”

 
https://www.autospor...nalty/10678594/

At the risk of stating the obvious, even in their own statement, this still reads like a ‘stitch in time saves nine’ thing. Or rather, normal practice is to wait until nine stitches are required. To be fair, they do say it will be reviewed for possible improvements, sounds like there is a lot of scope for finding some.

[Ruudbackus]

VSC, cars through the pit lane, Marshall pics it up. Great plan A

If that wasn’t too obvious, and I accept it might not be in the moment… then SC, pick it up when the queue has passed. Totally appropriate plan B.

Both of these entirely feasible with the current ruleset, and not requiring any lateral thinking or anything.

Going green without clearing the debris was the worst possible action.

exactly this. VSC would have solved it easily. and given the position of the mirror would not even take half a lap for a steward to pick it up.

[Ruudbackus]

The FIA have responded about the mirror!
 

 
https://www.autospor...nalty/10678594/

At the risk of stating the obvious, even in their own statement, this still reads like a ‘stitch in time saves nine’ thing. Or rather, normal practice is to wait until nine stitches are required. To be fair, they do say it will be reviewed for possible improvements, sounds like there is a lot of scope for finding some.

That response ios of course bs as the flat tires weren't related to the debris. 

[AlexPrime]

So they were prepared to leave the mirror on the track? 

[Alexis*27]

"In an explanation statement, it said: “Normal practice is for the safety car not to be deployed if there is a small amount of debris, and off the racing line"

Except this was the main overtaking spot and in the DRS zone. It's the only place drivers often go off the racing line!

Plus this was quite a large item. A little piece of carbon doesn't do much if hit. A full mirror assembly will split into a hundred pieces.

Edited by Alexis*27, 02 December 2024 - 11:04.

[PayasYouRace]

That response ios of course bs as the flat tires weren't related to the debris.

What? Seems an awfully big coincidence that the only two punctures during the race occurred just as the track became littered with sharp debris.

[Ruusperi]

Code 60 (or Code 40 or whatever is deemed safe speed for the cars). I've said it million times F1 needs to implement it. Obviously the cold tyres are a problem, but it can be upgraded to VSC afterwards.

[Ruudbackus]

What? Seems an awfully big coincidence that the only two punctures during the race occurred just as the track became littered with sharp debris.

it were left front that blew the debris was on the right side of the track neer the pitwall. Not on the trajectory of the left front tires. If anything the right fronts should have gone due to the debris.

Edit to add from thsi article: https://www.autospor...worse/10678506/ :

However, both Hamilton and Sainz have suggested that other objects, such as gravel and kerbs, could have played a part since the front-left tyres – heavily stressed on this circuit – were at the limit of wear at this point in the race.

Edited by Ruudbackus, 02 December 2024 - 11:13.

[DJH63]

Seems pretty clear they were hoping the leaders would pit and then they could throw a VSC to recover it.

[PayasYouRace]

it were left front that blew the debris was on the right side of the track neer the pitwall. Not on the trajectory of the left front tires. If anything the right fronts should have gone due to the debris.

Is there any confirmation from Pirelli?

That mirror exploded quite dramatically when it was hit. Debris would have gone everywhere.

[frosty125]

VSC and the field through the pitlane until the whole field had gone through would have worked well from a sporting perspective as all cars would have the opportunity to pit under the VSC.

[Ruudbackus]

Is there any confirmation from Pirelli?

That mirror exploded quite dramatically when it was hit. Debris would have gone everywhere.

I edited the post to refer to the fct both Sainz and Hamilton said it was something else. No word from Pirelli yet but i take the word of the drivers for it.

[Baddoer]

Red Flag

[Myrvold]

I've been thinking, with all the high-tech around F1 wouldn't it be possible to retrieve small debris with drones (under double yellows or VSC of course)? Less risk than sending marshals out there.

Not sure. This was a very lucky miss. The thumbnail makes it look less lucky than it was

Edited by Myrvold, 02 December 2024 - 11:23.

[PayasYouRace]

I edited the post to refer to the fct both Sainz and Hamilton said it was something else. No word from Pirelli yet but i take the word of the drivers for it.

They suggested it might be something else.

I’ll await confirmation.

[Heyli]

The FIA have responded about the mirror!
 

 
https://www.autospor...nalty/10678594/

At the risk of stating the obvious, even in their own statement, this still reads like a ‘stitch in time saves nine’ thing. Or rather, normal practice is to wait until nine stitches are required. To be fair, they do say it will be reviewed for possible improvements, sounds like there is a lot of scope for finding some.

I do think that in general those guidelines make sense (debris off the racing line is not a big risk). The issue here was that the debris might not have been an the optimal racing line, but as it was on the only straight where overtaking was possible, it was still on a line that was very likely to be used by the drivers.... So in that case they should have handled it as if it was debris on the racing line imo. 

[Myrvold]

BTW the going green situation reminds me of the account of the 1986 Detroit Grand Prix.

Nelson Piquet crashed. His car couldn’t be removed from the exit of a blind corner. After a few laps the marshals stopped showing yellow flags. Rene Arnoux then came through that corner at full speed, clipped Nelson’s Williams and taking himself and Thierry Boutsen out in the process.

You’d think stuff like this wouldn’t happen any more.

I have no access to the rules at that time. I wonder however, if they had the "after X laps of yellow, the drivers are supposed to be aware of the dangers, and the yellows will be taken in. The car/object is still there, but overtaking is now allowed".

I know this was something that was a "blast from the past" in a couple of racing diciplines in Norway well in to the 2000's. It had just been there for many years, so it was kept there.

[TomNokoe]

The FIA have responded about the mirror!


https://www.autospor...nalty/10678594/

At the risk of stating the obvious, even in their own statement, this still reads like a ‘stitch in time saves nine’ thing. Or rather, normal practice is to wait until nine stitches are required. To be fair, they do say it will be reviewed for possible improvements, sounds like there is a lot of scope for finding some.

Part of the FIA's explanation is the field was too spread out.

The biggest gap on track at that time was between Hamilton and Gasly. 14 seconds at racing speed. At VSC speed this would've ballooned to over 20, maybe 25. I can't be bothered to do the maths.

How long does it take a marshal to run the width of the pit straight and pick up an inanimate object? Especially as this can be easily coordinated, "After the Mercedes car has passed, Go!".

What type of operation is this, seriously?

[PayasYouRace]

I have no access to the rules at that time. I wonder however, if they had the "after X laps of yellow, the drivers are supposed to be aware of the dangers, and the yellows will be taken in. The car/object is still there, but overtaking is now allowed".
I know this was something that was a "blast from the past" in a couple of racing diciplines in Norway well in to the 2000's. It had just been there for many years, so it was kept there.

The report I have is contemporary and roundly criticises the organisers for it. It’s in Grand Prix by Alans Henry and Brinton, 1987. Doubt they’d have written it like that if it was common practice at the time.

[Burai]

It was an obvious safety car from the second the mirror landed on the track. It was inevitable someone would drive over it.

 

I've always thought F1 should look at slow zones, ala WEC. The VSC is OK, but it doesn't solve field spread and the delta time doesn't necessarily slow cars at the right time.

[SophieB]

Part of the FIA's explanation is the field was too spread out.

The biggest gap on track at that time was between Hamilton and Gasly. 14 seconds at racing speed. At VSC speed this would've ballooned to over 20, maybe 25. I can't be bothered to do the maths.

How long does it take a marshal to run the width of the pit straight and pick up an inanimate object? Especially as this can be easily coordinated, "After the Mercedes car has passed, Go!".

What type of operation is this, seriously?

I’m glad you’ve weighed in on this because I was wondering about something with this one which you might be able to shed light on. Did marshals go onto the track to clear any debris after Bottas drove over it or were you not in a place to see either way?

[TomNokoe]

I’m glad you’ve weighed in on this because I was wondering about something with this one which you might be able to shed light on. Did marshals go onto the track to clear any debris after Bottas drove over it or were you not in a place to see either way?

Only during the SC

[SophieB]

Only during the SC

Thanks! This is actually news to us because we didn’t see anything happening making us wonder why the SC actually needed to be out!

[monolulu]

Part of the FIA's explanation is the field was too spread out.

The biggest gap on track at that time was between Hamilton and Gasly. 14 seconds at racing speed. At VSC speed this would've ballooned to over 20, maybe 25. I can't be bothered to do the maths.

How long does it take a marshal to run the width of the pit straight and pick up an inanimate object? Especially as this can be easily coordinated, "After the Mercedes car has passed, Go!".

What type of operation is this, seriously?

Bet the RD would pick the wrong Merc!

[krea]

Pretty sure that calling the field to go through the pitline for one or two laps would have been enough and it would have been within the power of the race director.

[Heyli]

Pretty sure that calling the field to go through the pitline for one or two laps would have been enough and it would have been within the power of the race director.

Is it possible to due that with just a VSC with the current regulations? I honestly dont know, I think in the past they always took out a SC for that? 

[PayasYouRace]

I thought we’d seen cars being directed through the pits under VSC, but perhaps not. Definitely common practice under full SC though.

If there’s any doubt, it should be the safest option that is chosen anyway. So in this case a full SC seems appropriate. Going back to green should never have been an option, as shown by how the mirror was hit shortly after.

[Bendo]

The nonsense they have come out with to justify their incompetence is astounding.

Apparently it's perfectly normal to cover a bit of debris off the racing line under yellows. I guess the clown race director planned to leave it there for the rest of the race.

The incompetence at the FIA is Apparently unlimited.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Part of the FIA's explanation is the field was too spread out.

The biggest gap on track at that time was between Hamilton and Gasly. 14 seconds at racing speed. At VSC speed this would've ballooned to over 20, maybe 25. I can't be bothered to do the maths.

How long does it take a marshal to run the width of the pit straight and pick up an inanimate object? Especially as this can be easily coordinated, "After the Mercedes car has passed, Go!".

What type of operation is this, seriously?

 

This.

 

Also, the "off the racing line" argyment is total nonsense. It was off the racing line, indeed, but right on the "overtaking" line. This wasn't the outside line at the apex of a corner, where no cars are expected to be, but on a piece of track that you could reasonably expect to have cars run on.

[Myrvold]

Is it possible to due that with just a VSC with the current regulations? I honestly dont know, I think in the past they always took out a SC for that? 

 

I don't think so. The problem with doing that, and code 60 for sectors in relatively short races like F1 has, is that you end up with a difference in the amount of "slow zones" the drivers end up doing.

E.g running through the pits will be slower than staying on the track - and if driver A have 2 trips through the pits and driver B only 1, there is a difference.

Or if Driver C goes through a 300m Code 60, and Driver D doesn't.