86 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

This.

Also, the "off the racing line" argyment is total nonsense. It was off the racing line, indeed, but right on the "overtaking" line. This wasn't the outside line at the apex of a corner, where no cars are expected to be, but on a piece of track that you could reasonably expect to have cars run on.

And a car did run on shortly after, in a completely normal situation.

[kumo7]

Well I think on TV people shouldn’t be watching the marshals killed when they work on the race truck removing this debris. That’ll be a disaster.
So I would say, deploy safety car, divert the racing cars to the pit lane and remove the Mirror, perhaps it is about 30 cm.

[messy]

Immediate VSC, if not possible immediate SC. I couldn't believe the inaction. If we're all sitting at home knowing what's going to happen from our sofas why couldn't they see it?

[Whatisvalis]

What? Seems an awfully big coincidence that the only two punctures during the race occurred just as the track became littered with sharp debris.

 

Sainz, Per, and Ham were the first ones to encounter the debris, too. 

 

Also on F1TV there was no yellow indicator graphic for sector 1, which added to my confusion. I had no idea it was double yellows. The commentators thought it might be a slippery track panel. I would be curious to know if every driver was lifting for those few laps the mirror was on track.

 

The sad thing is the FIA have been inconsistent for DECADES now. It's the one conversation that never seems to end. Operationally they're a mess.

Edited by Whatisvalis, 02 December 2024 - 13:05.

[Sterzo]

We obviously need a new race director. Oh, er... hang on a minute...

[sportyskells]

I would have got the safety car straight out get the mirror and go back to green

Edited by sportyskells, 02 December 2024 - 13:42.

[absinthedude]

Way back in the ancient mists of time, a marshal might well have taken their life in their hands and run across the track under a yellow flag to pick it up. That was unnecessarily dangerous.

 

Without actually having seen the footage, I am surmising that the existing procedure of a VSC for one lap with all cars instructed to drive through the pit lane would have been the quickest and safest way to deal with this. 

 

Off the racing line is disingenuous. It's not like the mirror appears to have been up against the wall or right by an outside kerb on a slow corner. It was on the main straight right where people overtake. It was not tenable to leave it there for any length of time. Throwing a double yellow initially is fine but the RD should then have made a decision. One does not make safety based decisions on the grounds that it "might spoil someone's race strategy". That mirror ended up being hit by one car and being at least a contributory factor in two further cars suffering punctures.  

[Clatter]

Bit of a car on the main straight… right in the firing line. Now it’s not the same as a bolt, but remember Massa in Hungary… pieces of car loose on the track can do a lot of damage.

FIA must agree as they had double yellows waved on the straight … but they just waited for it to be hit anyway, and then dealt with the aftermath, so why throw the double yellows at all?

Reason it got hit seems to be Bottas getting blue flags in a double yellow zone… why is that even a thing?! I’d have thought yellow flags would immediately cancel out the need for any blue flags?

I thought they’d have thrown a VSC and then had a marshal at the end of the pitlane who could dart out and pick up the piece. It was probably in one of the ‘best’ positions for retrieval going…

Easy after the event, as ever. Would have been smart to direct all cars through the pitlane under VSC conditions to keep the straight clear too.

Was just strange there was such a long delay. Is that a symptom of having a new race director in place? You think these are the sort of situations he’d have to be 100% clued up on!

This incidence wasn't a hindsight thing. The obvious course of action was a VSC, that would have given ample time for a marshall to retrieve the mirror, and the whole VSC would only have been needed for a couple of minutes absolute tops.

[mclarensmps]

This literally required 2 laps under the safety car. 1 lap to collect the grid, and 1 lap to drive through the pits and collect the mirror, and then we're back racing again.

The racing line excuse is poor, as the mirror was near the end of a DRS straight where there are multiple racing lines for overtaking. It was absolutely inevitable someone was going to hit the mirror, and I don't consider a 3 inch thick mirror "minor" debris.

[Hellenic tifosi]

This incidence wasn't a hindsight thing. The obvious course of action was a VSC, that would have given ample time for a marshall to retrieve the mirror, and the whole VSC would only have been needed for a couple of minutes absolute tops.

This.

It would have been very simple to throw the double yellows at first and then go into VSC immediately after. Use the largest gap between cars to retrieve the mirror and back to green again.

[smr]

madness it wasn't removed. I've seen loads of debris which is not as dangerous being picked up by marshalls, whether during a VSC, SC or even without either.

[917k]

I’d have assumed the mirror would not be glass, maybe some sort of reflective laminate? Glass and racing cars seems a poor fit.

[earthling45]

Bit of a car on the main straight… right in the firing line. Now it’s not the same as a bolt, but remember Massa in Hungary… pieces of car loose on the track can do a lot of damage.

FIA must agree as they had double yellows waved on the straight … but they just waited for it to be hit anyway, and then dealt with the aftermath, so why throw the double yellows at all?

Reason it got hit seems to be Bottas getting blue flags in a double yellow zone… why is that even a thing?! I’d have thought yellow flags would immediately cancel out the need for any blue flags?

I thought they’d have thrown a VSC and then had a marshal at the end of the pitlane who could dart out and pick up the piece. It was probably in one of the ‘best’ positions for retrieval going…

Easy after the event, as ever. Would have been smart to direct all cars through the pitlane under VSC conditions to keep the straight clear too.

Was just strange there was such a long delay. Is that a symptom of having a new race director in place? You think these are the sort of situations he’d have to be 100% clued up on!

 

It should have been at minimum a VSC after the dubbel yellow flag, remove that debris during the VSC and the race can continu safely.

It is rediculous that the double yellow was lifted so fast and racing continued as if there was no problem, these kind of stupid decisions from the RD create confusion and dangerous situations.

[kumo7]

There was this post telling that at the time the cars were spread over all parts of the track therefore VSC might not guarantee sufficient safety for the (unpaid and very dedicated) marshals.
Mirror was shot on the Video also, the size and the material is known to FIA.

[Autodromo]

It should have been cleared, but I am still amazed that Bottas apparently did not see it or wasn't aware it was there.  

[Sterzo]

I’d have assumed the mirror would not be glass, maybe some sort of reflective laminate? Glass and racing cars seems a poor fit.

It was the complete mirror, with carbon fibre body, which is probably more lethal to tyres than glass. Don't know if there were any metal parts too.

[P123]

It should have been cleared, but I am still amazed that Bottas apparently did not see it or wasn't aware it was there.  

 

Agreed- there for several laps and you would think the team would have informed him.

 

They did however withdraw the yellow flag, so Race Control was somewhat inviting it and perhaps led some to believe the situation was resolved.  Given it was towards the end of a straight, at the only overtaking spot on the track, on the line used by cars that would be overtaking, then I'm not quite sure what RC were thinking.  The justification of "we couldn't do it under VSC", would therefore suggest they should have gone for a SC.  Them stating it was offline is true to an extent, but not on a part of the circuit never used.  But I guess this is what happens with everybody leaving the FIA. 

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

[loki]

Full course yellow right when it’s spotted.  Dispatch the AMR Safety Team to pick it up.  Thee End…

[Analog]

Immediate VSC, asses the gaps between car and if none is big enough to send out a runner, deploy the SC. 

[jonpollak]

Full course yellow right when it’s spotted. Dispatch the AMR Safety Team to pick it up. Thee End…

Or get our resident Intervention Marshall to go out and pick it up.
Jp

[azza200]

common sense would of been call a VSC get rid of it off the track and do some other track quick tidy ups for debris and go back to racing would take a few mins. They do that in WEC for debris issues and get back to racing asap. 

 

But F1 is run by a bunch of clowns who are more interested in making it entertainment based to appeal to the DTS crowd

[Bendo]

There wasn't a sufficient gap to deal with it under vsc which is why the SC should have been used.

Unfortunately the FIA sacked the race director that was semi competent and now as have one that has no clue.

[FirstnameLastname]

It should have been cleared, but I am still amazed that Bottas apparently did not see it or wasn't aware it was there.

He was getting blue flags waved at him… I’m still not sure they should be blue flagging drivers in a yellow flag zone? Or was this one of the laps where they cancelled the yellow for a bit?!

Regardless - he probz helped indirectly get Sauber their first points

[Laster]

'There wasn't a big enough gap for a marshall to get it under VSC.' I think one of the things that frustrates me is the refusal to intervene and make a command of drivers and teams on track. 'You took this position by going off track, give it back' simple command sorts the problem out but they refuse to take that level of control.

In this instance they could command no one to pit under VSC and command Driver X through Z to slow down hold back 20 seconds to create a big enough gap, then allow them to close back up the gap they lost before returning to green flag running. So that no one has lost out, and no one has benefitted.

I would like to see them to have and make use of a wider range of authority to better suit the situation. Right now it all feels very limited and inadequate. Outdated even since F1 started throwing VSC & SC for every stranded car and piece of carbon fiber. If this is how it has to be, that's fine but how it is dealt with desperately needs to be improved to reduce how much they impact the race.

[earthling45]

Speed is reduced by 30 percent under the VSC, this is of course delta time and not speed in kph but they could add something to the VSC rules so that they drive one or even a few mini sectors on the pit limiter and thus make it safe for marshals to remove objects from the track in that sector, make it a learning moment instead of shouting and finger pointing.

[baddog]

safety car really.

[Lennat]

My actual in the moment thought was "Is there enough of a gap somewhere in the field to just have a VSC instead of a proper safety car and simply send a marshall out on track to pick it up quickly?".

Edited by Lennat, 03 December 2024 - 02:52.

[Sterzo]

Speed is reduced by 30 percent under the VSC, this is of course delta time and not speed in kph but they could add something to the VSC rules so that they drive one or even a few mini sectors on the pit limiter and thus make it safe for marshals to remove objects from the track in that sector, make it a learning moment instead of shouting and finger pointing.

I would really like to see a move in this direction. There may be unforseen problems, but it makes so much sense. Why not use a limiter for every VSC session? The whole point of SCs, VSCs and flags is to slow cars down. Let's just do it.

 

The fact that pace under a VSC is currently too high to enable recovery of debris is just nuts.

[FirstnameLastname]

Yup. If the go karts at Butlins can use a whole course limiter system, I don’t see why F1 can’t

[billm99uk]

Trained golden retrievers at every marshal station. "Fetch it, boy. Fetch!" 

[RedRabbit]

Throw a VSC and most cars pit anyway, so the straight would be clear "naturally"

[PayasYouRace]

Thinking about it, wasn’t the idea of the VSC to keep thing under control when nobody was required to enter the racing surface? So, when there were cars off track but needing marshals assistance or whatever?

So this should never have required a second thought. It required someone to enter the racing surface so it should have been a safety car automatically.

[kumo7]

I believe VSC is the quickest method. SC costs a lot of time. 

[baddog]

Thinking about it, wasn’t the idea of the VSC to keep thing under control when nobody was required to enter the racing surface? So, when there were cars off track but needing marshals assistance or whatever?

So this should never have required a second thought. It required someone to enter the racing surface so it should have been a safety car automatically.

You would think

[Bleu]

I would really like to see a move in this direction. There may be unforseen problems, but it makes so much sense. Why not use a limiter for every VSC session? The whole point of SCs, VSCs and flags is to slow cars down. Let's just do it.

 

The fact that pace under a VSC is currently too high to enable recovery of debris is just nuts.

 

Using hard limiter would affect cars in different spots much differently, so unless it's used for full lap it would make differences on track. While VSC speeds are set to slow down cars equally all around the track. 

[Hellenic tifosi]

Using hard limiter would affect cars in different spots much differently, so unless it's used for full lap it would make differences on track. While VSC speeds are set to slow down cars equally all around the track. 

 

That's true. However, RC could have thrown a VSC to assess the situation and see if there was a gap that could facilitate the removal of the mirror. It would have taken no more than 5-10 seconds.