1177 replies to this topic

[Scuderia24]

It helped him gain only two spots, same as Sainz. Doubt he gets 2nd without the collision.

Still we need to thank him...

[SenorSjon]

 

2016

I think the spins are identical. 

[sketchy2001]

I don't care if he was lying or not. I would never choose him as the priest of my town anyway.

What i care for is that aggressiveness goes hand in hand with great drivers in this sport.

F1 is a hard sport, more like a "boxing" thing rather than rhythmic gymnastics.

If we don't get this, we are following the wrong sport.

 

So where do you put Jacky Stewart, Jim Clarke, Jochen Rindt, Alain Prost, etc?  Hamilton has had his moments, Vettel a few more but Senna/Schumacher/Max certainly have "very specific" approach to wheel-2-wheel racing that is not typical of all greats.

 

At the end of the day, if the letter of the law is poorly written then it will be exploited by those more ruthless.

[JeanAlesi27]

Here's for those who were bemoaning Lewis's strategy in his last race with Mercedes: 

 

https://www.planetf1...l-mercedes-race

[Scuderia24]

So where do you put Jacky Stewart, Jim Clarke, Jochen Rindt, Alain Prost, etc?  Hamilton has had his moments, Vettel a few more but Senna/Schumacher/Max certainly have "very specific" approach to wheel-2-wheel racing that is not typical of all greats.

 

At the end of the day, if the letter of the law is poorly written then it will be exploited by those more ruthless.

You mention Hamilton, the same one who sent Verstappen to the hospital a few years ago? Hamilton has been dirty yes. Lewis, welcome at Ferrari BTW.

 

Regarding Stewart, Clark, Rindt and Prost, i cannot recall anyone calling any of them "creme de la creme" (GOAT).

 

You could argue regarding Jim Clark, there are some people calling him the GOAT, but i think this is very subjective. He had a specific and special driving style. But he did not have the competition that others had in his time. After 1965, he did not perform really well anyway.

Edited by Scuderia24, Yesterday, 16:32.

[Nemo1965]

You mention Hamilton, the same one who sent Verstappen to the hospital a few years ago? Hamilton has been dirty yes. Lewis, welcome at Ferrari BTW.

Regarding Stewart, Clark, Rindt and Prost, i cannot recall anyone calling any of them "creme de la creme" (GOAT).

You could argue regarding Jim Clark, there are some people calling him the GOAT, but i think this is very subjective. He had a specific and special driving style. But he did not have the competition that others had in his time. After 1965, he did not perform really well anyway.

😧 You’re either joking, trolling or the most misguided F1-fan ever. Writing this about Jim Clark… if serious: may God have mercy on your soul.

[gillesfan76]

 

The telemetry of the incident is interesting. A few key things:

- Piastri starts to come off the throttle and starts to go onto the brakes at the same time. Interestingly, he overlaps the coming off throttle/going onto brakes progressively but quickly.

 

- Verstappen comes off the throttle much later than Piastri. Unlike Piastri however, Verstappen almost fully comes off the throttle before he starts applying the brakes. The point at which he starts applying brakes seems to be around 30 metres later than Piastri. You can see this in the speed trace where Verstappen is still gaining speed towards the corner while Piastri is losing speed.

 

- Verstappen does something interesting where he keeps a tiny bit of throttle right at the point where he starts applying the brakes. I’m not sure why he is doing this but I don’t think it’s a mistake i.e mistiming. I think it may help stabilise the rear, because he’s braking so late that he’s effectively trail braking which can destabilise the rears and applying a little throttle will ask less of the rears by not combining longitudinal and lateral loads on the rear tyres as much. It would be nice to have telemetry of the steering trace to see how that lines up.

 

I think this graph highlights the basic problem I have with Verstappen’s driving as it defines his do-or-die style which is often confused with trying to make a move but making a mistake. Why?

 

Because he is braking so late, incredibly late 30 metres later at 230 kph isn’t a joke, it’s 5 car lengths, so what he is effectively trying to do is simply steam in there and get to the apex first. This would be ok if his move allows him any possibility to back out if he doesn’t reach the apex first. But it doesn’t. In fact, I think he never or at most rarely leaves the possibility to back out if he doesn’t reach the apex first.

 

His goal is to reach the apex first and having done so, the car on the outside has to give him room on the inside. But in fact if he does manage to steam in so fast and reach the apex first, then the driver on the outside will of course be well aware of him of him suddenly appearing on the scene at a great rate of knots, and the driver on the outside instinctively opens their steering wheel more to give Verstappen far more room than is warranted. We’ve often seen the car on the outside open their wheel up to avoid inevitable contact because they know that’s what is going to happen if they don’t open up the wheel. Verstappen is suddenly appearing alongside them on the apex and their brain is telling them he’s going to wash out wide. They may not want to give him room and lose position, but their instinct takes over as their brain registers that a car arriving from so far back at a much greater speed on the tight inside line is almost certainly not going to stop sudenly.

 

So when he does these moves where he brakes ludicrously late in order to get to the apex first, he is counting on getting to the apex first. If he achieves that, he knows that there is a high probability that he will be given far more room. Then he will make the pass. I think in his mind, he considers it only a misjudgement or mistake if he doesn’t reach the apex first. However my issue with it is that once he’s committed to the move to reach the apex first, he can’t easily back out of the move when it looks like he won’t reach it first. He’s left his braking so late and he’s carrying so much speed in that it’s a do-or-die. His judgement of getting to the apex first is very good of course. I’m not arguing that, it is very good indeed. But the problem I have with it is that it’s still bully driving tactic as it relies on the other driver instinctively opening up and compromising their line to avoid a collision, and admittedly while it’s clever, I think it’s dirty. And if he doesn’t get to the apex first, he can’t back out as he’s steaming in very fast.

Edited by gillesfan76, Yesterday, 16:46.

[Scuderia24]

You’re either joking, trolling or the most misguided F1-fan ever. Writing this about Jim Clark… if serious: may God have mercy on your soul.

Let's not open this discussion, it hurts... Let's stay on the usual "Jim Clark is a God not a human". So we can all be happy.

[milestone 11]

I definitely don’t know everything, even as an oldie like me you are always learning. I’m quite comfortable with my 32 seasons in F1 however, and I’m quite confident that unlike you I can say I saw Gilles race live and his antics.

You seem a little confused.

[milestone 11]

Please point us to the rule the overtaking driver has to be on the edge of the track? Thanks.
Also the racing line completely washes out there to the point drivers losing their laps for going over the line on the other side of the track.
Btw Max was at fault but your reasoning is wrong and making a mountain of a molehill.

Copse '21

[TomNokoe]

2016
I think the spins are identical.

Reminded me of 2010


 

[Alfisti]

Eh, it's more like 60/40 Max's fault, Piastri clearly is aware of Max and decides not to take the whole lot of track to his right.

I'll never understand this, in no way, shape or form does Piastri have any obligation to give Verstappen more space there. He left enough space for a bit more than a car width, Verstappen just went in ever so slightly too hot, it happens sometimes. Max also needs to learn when a door will close before he gets to the apex, that door was always going to close. 

[Boxerevo]

Why he should care if the guy being divebombed will get it worst anyway? 

 

"If he dies, he dies."

Edited by Boxerevo, Yesterday, 18:55.

[Brian60]

Fact is that we Ferrari fans need to thank Max Verstappen for his services at the last race of the season. 

He forced Piastri off the track and this caused a mess at the start which helped Leclerc climb the ladder.

Maybe Max is already in talks for a red seat in 2026? 

Quite possible if you ask me.  

It won't be '26, Lewis has a contract for that year, could well be '27, but I'd bank on '28. Thats the year Max has said he will leave RB and retire.

[Brian60]

 

His goal is to reach the apex first and having done so, the car on the outside has to give him room on the inside. But in fact if he does manage to steam in so fast and reach the apex first, then the driver on the outside will of course be well aware of him of him suddenly appearing on the scene at a great rate of knots, and the driver on the outside instinctively opens their steering wheel more to give Verstappen far more room than is warranted. We’ve often seen the car on the outside open their wheel up to avoid inevitable contact because they know that’s what is going to happen if they don’t open up the wheel. Verstappen is suddenly appearing alongside them on the apex and their brain is telling them he’s going to wash out wide. They may not want to give him room and lose position, but their instinct takes over as their brain registers that a car arriving from so far back at a much greater speed on the tight inside line is almost certainly not going to stop sudenly.

 

So when he does these moves where he brakes ludicrously late in order to get to the apex first, he is counting on getting to the apex first. If he achieves that, he knows that there is a high probability that he will be given far more room. Then he will make the pass. I think in his mind, he considers it only a misjudgement or mistake if he doesn’t reach the apex first. However my issue with it is that once he’s committed to the move to reach the apex first, he can’t easily back out of the move when it looks like he won’t reach it first. He’s left his braking so late and he’s carrying so much speed in that it’s a do-or-die. His judgement of getting to the apex first is very good of course. I’m not arguing that, it is very good indeed. But the problem I have with it is that it’s still bully driving tactic as it relies on the other driver instinctively opening up and compromising their line to avoid a collision, and admittedly while it’s clever, I think it’s dirty. And if he doesn’t get to the apex first, he can’t back out as he’s steaming in very fast.

It is the highlighted parts of this that I agree with and have issue with.

 

It seems Max has his style of driving and it is thus. Get to the apex first by whatever means. By doing so I can't be held accountable by the stewards if there is a coming together with the other car. This is how I've interpreted his driving from the day he arrived in F1 - bully my way through and the other cars will give way to  me. It's a style he has developed and it works against most drivers. Even lewis in a better car some years ago gave way to him - Lewis knowing that he would still score vital points if he was behind him. This all changed in '21 when Lewis had had enough of the tactics and actually stood his ground with Max, then we all saw through out the season what happened when neither driver was willing to yield to being passed.

[MissingApex]

I think he got caught out by the height of the curb, which was the reason his car understeered into Piastri.

All this mind reading is a bit ridiculous, this guy makes mistakes too, probably much less than others, but he still makes mistakes.

[PrinceBira]

Palmer has a much better analysis.

https://youtu.be/750...rOUfwHBmv7Ve1SW

[gillesfan76]

While I enjoy all of JP’s analysis over the seasons, this one fails to account for the telemetry showing Verstappen braking 30 metres later going 12 kph faster than Piastri. JP says that Piastri doesn’t brake too early, but doesn’t acknowledge what Verstappen is doing going in so much quicker but braking 30 metres later. Verstappen’s moves rely on him reaching the apex alongside the defending driver and the defending driver giving him extra space. Those two points in fact go together because by reaching the apex alongside the defending driver, he is seen by the defending driver and the defending driver instinctively reacts to it which favours Verstappen.

[PrinceBira]

While I enjoy all of JP’s analysis over the seasons, this one fails to account for the telemetry showing Verstappen braking 30 metres later going 12 kph faster than Piastri. JP says that Piastri doesn’t brake too early, but doesn’t acknowledge what Verstappen is doing going in so much quicker but braking 30 metres later. Verstappen’s moves rely on him reaching the apex alongside the defending driver and the defending driver giving him extra space. Those two points in fact go together because by reaching the apex alongside the defending driver, he is seen by the defending driver and the defending driver instinctively reacts to it which favours Verstappen.

 

He does mention Verstappen brakes much later. And obviously, to overtake a car that is ahead on the straight, you have to brake later. 

[gillesfan76]

He does mention Verstappen brakes much later. And obviously, to overtake a car that is ahead on the straight, you have to brake later. 

 

Just later? Do you think 30 metres later while going 12 kph faster without a notable car and tyre advantage is just later?

[PrinceBira]

Just later? Do you think 30 metres later while going 12 kph faster without a notable car and tyre advantage is just later?

 

Well you did notice that Verstappen was quite a bit behind before the breaking zone and was partially alongside into the corner I presume? That can only be achieved by braking much later. Why would you need to mention this if it's already visible by watching the footage? 

 

Crucially though, even braking so much later he was able to hit the apex and even steer more onto the kerb. So not sure what the relevance of your datapoints are. He was in control of the car. But he fully misjudged the room that would be available to him into the corner. 

[gillesfan76]

Well you did notice that Verstappen was quite a bit behind before the breaking zone and was partially alongside into the corner I presume? That can only be achieved by braking much later. Why would you need to mention this if it's already visible by watching the footage? 

 

Crucially though, even braking so much later he was able to hit the apex and even steer more onto the kerb. So not sure what the relevance of your datapoints are. He was in control of the car. But he fully misjudged the room that would be available to him into the corner. 

 

I don’t disagree with the facts of what you’ve said. i.e hit the apex etc. I definitely completely read and enjoy your well thought out posts. But I’ve also explained it all in my post, and there is relevance in the data points and the nuance in what he is doing.

 

Look at it this way. Most successful, clean overtakes and sporting ones, are about occupying the space that the defending driver would otherwise wish to have or wish to deny the attacker. I think many of Verstappen’s overtakes go beyond that and rely on the defending driver effectively getting spooked. Put yourself in the position of the defending driver. Imagine yourself right there in the cockpit, you’re racing down the straight towards the end of it, you know the other driver is a fair way back, you hit your braking point and you turn in towards the apex and as you approach it you notice the other driver is right there alongside you because he’s braked so much later. What you should be able to do is give that attacking driver a car’s width of space that he has earned. What your instinctive reactive brain does though is very quickly and subconsciously process that the attacking driver is likely to slide across your planned trajectory and into you. Hard. So what do your reactions do?

[PrinceBira]

I don’t disagree with the facts of what you’ve said. i.e hit the apex etc. I definitely completely read and enjoy your well thought out posts. But I’ve also explained it all in my post, and there is relevance in the data points and the nuance in what he is doing.

 

Look at it this way. Most successful, clean overtakes and sporting ones, are about occupying the space that the defending driver would otherwise wish to have or wish to deny the attacker. I think many of Verstappen’s overtakes go beyond that and rely on the defending driver effectively getting spooked. Put yourself in the position of the defending driver. Imagine yourself right there in the cockpit, you’re racing down the straight towards the end of it, you know the other driver is a fair way back, you hit your braking point and you turn in towards the apex and as you approach it you notice the other driver is right there alongside you because he’s braked so much later. What you should be able to do is give that attacking driver a car’s width of space that he has earned. What your instinctive reactive brain does though is very quickly and subconsciously process that the attacking driver is likely to slide across your planned trajectory and into you. Hard. So what do your reactions do?

 

Palmer points this out in his analysis (see the yellow line he drew into the corner). He specifically mentions that this corner is not suitable for Max' typical strategy of trying to arrive at the braking zone first, because the braking zone is so shirt into T1. 

 

I think he simplifies what you are saying. In my mind, what can be explained in a simple way without noise distracting from the core of the message is the strongest way of communicating. Adding how many metres he braked later to me is like someone showing a Powerpoint slide and then reading the bullet points out loud when presenting. Then I'm like: uh, I already see your bullet points, please spare me what I can already see. 

[gillesfan76]

https://www.youtube....h?v=IJh6RClV3WE

A great Palmer analysis from Mexico that explains exactly what I mean. It’s exactly the same thing that he’s doing whether it’s in attack or defence. Racing to the apex and then if he’s sufficiently alongside, using that as the sole criteria to dictate a line where the other driver has to yield to avoid a coming together.

[Nemo1965]

I think Palmer's analysis (about AD 2024) was spot on and it's my impression that most posters here agree with it. As Palmer said: it a. it could be seen as a first lap incident or b. penalty. It was not a Max Red Mist Moment, more an action according to the great line by Mark Twain: 'Sometimes nothing can stop you from doing something stupid. In other words: optimism.'

 

Not a hill to die on, this moment, I must say...

Edited by Nemo1965, Today, 16:43.

[Nemo1965]

Let's not open this discussion, it hurts... Let's stay on the usual "Jim Clark is a God not a human". So we can all be happy.

 

You're right. Let us also stay on the line that Enzo Ferrari was a glorified tractor-builder who liked to play drivers out against each other, so they regularly killed themselves out of fear for the old man.

 

Have you seen Ferrari with Adam Driver? I thought it was marvelous. The best thing was the factuality of it. A movie like a documentary. Like Senna, 2010. 

 

Now back on topic. AD 2024 and particularly the first lap incident between Max and Piastri. That on itself has been kicked to death, by the way. Fans say Max can't make mistake, because he's perfect, Detractors says Max can't make mistakes, because he's evil. And around and around we go...

 

Something like that.

Edited by Nemo1965, Today, 17:00.

[Clatter]

 

2016

I think the spins are identical. 

 

Funny how he thinks he wasn't given enough room.

[MikeTekRacing]

I think he got caught out by the height of the curb, which was the reason his car understeered into Piastri.

All this mind reading is a bit ridiculous, this guy makes mistakes too, probably much less than others, but he still makes mistakes.

Max made a mistake. Oscar didn't give quite enough room so he had to bounce on the curb.

 

Penalty deserved as long as we keep giving them for T1 incidents (which were quite lenient in the past. Ironically I think Lewis received a T1 penalty 2007-8 for outbreaking himself without touching anyone).

 

Consistency is the only thing important.