50 replies to this topic

[juicy sushi]

Hi everyone,

 

So, there are older threads lurking out there about previous attempts by Indycar at replacing the DW12.  Some deal with the chassis, some deal with the powertrain, but all ended in nothingness because of well, reasons.

 

But (!!!) now there is a new effort afoot to introduce a new car in 2027 by Indycar's management, which means we should give it a thread of its own to talk about what we know, and what we don't know.  

 

The first real inklings of Indycar having actual plans for a new car came in late February 2024, when Marshall Pruett had an article in Racer discussing 2027 engine options:  https://racer.com/20...engine-formula/

 

At that point, there was little on the new chassis side.  Mention of new parts blended with old parts, but nothing spectacular.  Very affordable, not very inspiring.

 

Around Indy, we got a bit of news about the engines potentially being the same ones as now, but spec, to try to meet Honda halfway on their cost concerns, without actually doing anything substantial:  https://racer.com/20...ing-into-focus/

 

We also got some rumours about a new tub, if for no other reason that better accommodation of the batteries for the hybrid, but with significant parts carryover:  https://racer.com/20...hassis-options/

 

And then on December 10, 2024 we got reports that drawings were shown to the team owners by Indycar.  And the owners rejected them out of hand:  https://racer.com/20...ed-2027-design/

 

We have not seen these drawings, but disgruntled team owners described them as "current Indycar with the new F2 rear wing."  (-_-)

 

Someone then whipped out their phone, googled "Gran Turismo Adrian Newey", and slid it across the desk in response. 

 

And so now we have reached the point where the series suggests this:

 

 

plus 

 

 

And the team owners say they want the series to grow a pair and try something like this:

 

 

Chip is saying that the form needs to follow the function and everyone needs to figure out what they want out of this new Indycar before caring about what it looks like.  Such as crucial details like if people want to consume their new Dallara chassis nasally.  Zak is saying he can throw the McLaren Automotive styling team at this if need be (which is actually a pretty good idea), and others are just saying Indycar needs to really be ambitious with the looks if it wants people to care.

 

Edited by juicy sushi, 11 December 2024 - 16:11.

[LolaB0860]

All I want is a new non-spec chassis formula that uses technology from current decade

Edited by LolaB0860, 11 December 2024 - 16:15.

[OvDrone]

'bout damn time.

[PayasYouRace]

Thanks for the summary.

That F2 wing is one of the worst things I’ve ever seen.

Really I don’t know what I want from a new Indycar. I’ve reached the point where nothing will ever beat a 90s Champ Car to my eyes. I hope it’ll be something cool and exciting looking through.

What I do want to see is a bit of competition. If not on track then at least for the supply itself. Dallas’s monopoly on single-seater chassis outside F1 makes me sick.

[Vielleicht]

Chip is saying that the form needs to follow the function and everyone needs to figure out what they want out of this new Indycar before caring about what it looks like.  

This seems like the right approach. 

[pacificquay]

It's baffling that F2 and SuperFormula where budgets are lower can get a new car every 3 years whereas IndyCar teams would supposedly be bankrupted if they couldn't keep the same one for 15 years.

[pup]

The Newey design is far beyond the point where open wheel is more a technicality than a basis of the design.  If you go that far, then just be honest and design yourself an LMP car and be done with it.  

 

How long has it been since I've advocated for the old Pininfarina Sigma as a basis for an open wheel series?  Seems like ages, but it's still a hill I'd die on.  

Edited by pup, 11 December 2024 - 16:58.

[H0R]

Deltawing or bust!

[juicy sushi]

It's baffling that F2 and SuperFormula where budgets are lower can get a new car every 3 years whereas IndyCar teams would supposedly be bankrupted if they couldn't keep the same one for 15 years.

The economics are quite different for each series.  F2 is entirely ride buyers, so the price of a brick is the price of a brick.  Super Formula should be similar, but most teams are subsidized off-shoots of Super GT teams, so I think their money issues are different.  At the end of the day, it has mostly been about will power.  There could have been a new car when the aeroscreen or the hybrid were introduced.  The costs were essentially on that level anyway.  But the decision to not rip the band-aid off was taken instead.  To the series detriment.

[JHSingo]

At the end of the day, it has mostly been about will power.

 

This series has always been about Will Power. 

 

[red stick]

Deltawing or bust!

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[red stick]

Nice summary, but you left out this critical part from the most recent RACER story, which seems to be the crux of the problem and the genesis of the revolt, such as it is.

 

 

Penske Entertainment is considering an approach to its next-generation IndyCar where it would carry over as many of the DW12’s mechanical components as possible to reduce costs — from suspension, to ancillaries beneath the sidepods, to some drivetrain items.

This would paint the next car into a bearing a similar likeness to the current car due to the attachment points for those items needing to be the same. It could also account for the rendering being portrayed as having visual cues that are very familiar to the DW12.

 

https://racer.com/20...ed-2027-design/ (emphasis added)

[juicy sushi]

Yeah, that seemed to be a continuation of their previous thoughts that I mentioned further up, so I didn't include it.  But I think that's the break point.  Many team owners are willing to accept they will need to forgo the DW12 parts reserve in order to get something which sells better.  Penske thinks that isn't necessary.  We will see who is right.

[loki]

[PayasYouRace]

Nice summary, but you left out this critical part from the most recent RACER story, which seems to be the crux of the problem and the genesis of the revolt, such as it is.

 

 

https://racer.com/20...ed-2027-design/ (emphasis added)

There’s a lot that you can do around similar attachment points.

[red stick]

There’s a lot that you can do around similar attachment points.

Technically true, albeit with limitations?  Certainly.

Not exactly what several team owners seem to have desired, evidently because of those limitations?  Also, almost certainly.  

[Risil]

Chip is right. The new car tender should be in support of what the series wants to be in 10 years' time, where it wants to race, who it wants to compete, who it wants to watch.

(If Indycar management doesn't know that, the best race car in the world won't help them.)

[LolaB0860]

Lola is back in business and is looking at different markets. Hell even Onroak/Ligier is building open wheelers. Why can't we have these different cars back together instead of another 45 years of spec Dallaras. That's why everything gets so stale. F1 is the only constructors championship left in the world (I don't count Formula E since those are really spec chassis too) and people wonder why the other series can't advance further.

Edited by LolaB0860, 11 December 2024 - 21:04.

[red stick]

25ish entries. Three manufacturers? Shame economies of scale are a reality, even in racing.

[juicy sushi]

I think there is no way the series will be anything other than Dallara only because series management and team owners see no benefit in a non-spec situation. I would hope for a LMH/LMDh approach to bodywork, but I think that’s too much seasoning for Penske tastes.

[loki]

Lola is back in business and is looking at different markets. Hell even Onroak/Ligier is building open wheelers. Why can't we have these different cars back together instead of another 45 years of spec Dallaras. That's why everything gets so stale. F1 is the only constructors championship left in the world (I don't count Formula E since those are really spec chassis too) and people wonder why the other series can't advance further.

The 90s are calling…

[Viryfan]

Oreca wants to do Indycar, that's their main goal.

[PayasYouRace]

I think there is no way the series will be anything other than Dallara only because series management and team owners see no benefit in a non-spec situation. I would hope for a LMH/LMDh approach to bodywork, but I think that’s too much seasoning for Penske tastes.

I’d rather someone else do the spec then. Too much Dallara everywhere. What was the last major series to not use a Dallara? That Formula Nippon Swift (that looked awesome btw)?

[registered]

So full spec? Spec chassis as is but also spec engine? Sad

[juicy sushi]

I’d rather someone else do the spec then. Too much Dallara everywhere. What was the last major series to not use a Dallara? That Formula Nippon Swift (that looked awesome btw)?

I think Dallara has effectively cornered most markets at this point, and built relationships with enough series management that alternatives are emphatically unwelcome.

[juicy sushi]

So full spec? Spec chassis as is but also spec engine? Sad

Honda have explained that since the ICE is solved technology, it’s got no upside in their view. They get no R&D or training benefits from it. But it is a large cost instead.

[Beri]

Just a question out of the blue; Is there a realistic chance that other chassis manufacturers than Dallara are going to be interested? And if so; is there a legitimate chance of having 2 or 3 manufacturers supplying the 2027 chassis (under strict regulations)?

[registered]

Just a question out of the blue; Is there a realistic chance that other chassis manufacturers than Dallara are going to be interested? And if so; is there a legitimate chance of having 2 or 3 manufacturers supplying the 2027 chassis (under strict regulations)?

I think with a setup like this one will end up a tiny bit better even if they are supposed to be equal and the teams gravitate to that. Like with lmp2 which is the oreca cup

[Henri Greuter]

Just a question out of the blue; Is there a realistic chance that other chassis manufacturers than Dallara are going to be interested? And if so; is there a legitimate chance of having 2 or 3 manufacturers supplying the 2027 chassis (under strict regulations)?

 

 

I presume there is interest from other companies but only as long as they know that they can produce dozens and dozens of cars. Otherwise it isn't a profitable excursion for them and to get their costs/investments back. And if they wanna play even that would make the cars much more expensive.

 

And more unaffordable for more and more smaller teams....

 

 

And that's one of the two biggest dangers for the total collapse of Indycars expressed in words

 

 

(The other is if either Chevy or Honda ( or both....) pull the plug)

Edited by Henri Greuter, 12 December 2024 - 12:07.

[LolaB0860]

I think with a setup like this one will end up a tiny bit better even if they are supposed to be equal and the teams gravitate to that. Like with lmp2 which is the oreca cup

That's the stupid problem of LMP2 that ruined the entire class. But even in fairly strict cost-cap environment you could bypass it by allowing small and affordable intermittent constructor EVO upgrades to different cars, which is what LMP2 actually used to do before they turned into Hughes de Chaunac's private joke class.

Edited by LolaB0860, 12 December 2024 - 12:35.

[Peat]

 

Artists Impression of the IR18evo.

[Ali_G]

Any chance of implementing alternative aero packs for the new car. Weren’t we promised that 3rd party supplies could provide different aero kits to the current Dallas chassis.

It would go some way to at least diversifying the cars some bit more than just engines.

[LolaB0860]

Maybe we'll end up with Oreca instead of Dallara. And by that I mean Oreca rebranding Dallaras as Orecas.

There would also be new stickers and wings and 30 horsepower power boost. That'll easily carry the current cars until 2040's or 2050's. What a way to celebrate 30th or 40th or 50th anniversary of DW12. By that time the F1 cars are flying, but that's just showing off.

Edited by LolaB0860, 12 December 2024 - 13:59.

[aportinga]

 

Artists Impression of the IR18evo.

 

That looks smaller than the F2 chassis.

[loki]

Any chance of implementing alternative aero packs for the new car. Weren’t we promised that 3rd party supplies could provide different aero kits to the current Dallas chassis.

It would go some way to at least diversifying the cars some bit more than just engines.

They did that and it didn’t work out.

[loki]

Just a question out of the blue; Is there a realistic chance that other chassis manufacturers than Dallara are going to be interested? And if so; is there a legitimate chance of having 2 or 3 manufacturers supplying the 2027 chassis (under strict regulations)?

That came up in the initial offering way back when.  The package is a dictated price and splitting it up doesn't scale for someone to make money.  The price is determined by the cost of the design and build with some margin for profit.  If that were to be split up there’s less incentive to manufacture.

[teejay]

 

Artists Impression of the IR18evo.

 

 

GP2! 

[Wes350]

All I want is a new non-spec chassis formula that uses technology from current decade

 

 

Not going to happen...

 

In fact, not only not going to happen; we will never see a non-spec formula car series outside of F1 ever again.

 

The heyday of CART when you had 2-3 different chassis makers was entirely an artifact of the big tobacco era of motorsport sponsorship.

 

Those days are gone, and they're never coming back.

 

The tolerance level for 'getting it wrong' has decreased in direct proportion to the reduction of sponsorship money.

 

No one has the money to pick the wrong chassis for the year, and hope they get it right next year.

 

Only three teams in Indycar have anywhere near the resources to do something like the aerokits, and even those got unanimously tossed straight in the bin when one manufacturer got them more right than the other.

 

The most we can hope for is that the next gen car can run and follow each other well in dirty air, and that the engine isn't a overweight hybrid POS.

 

I give us 50/50 on each. And that's me being optimistic.

[kumo7]

Improve the cooling capacity of the car and reduce the in and out of the air into anf from chassis...

[LolaB0860]

Not going to happen...

 

In fact, not only not going to happen; we will never see a non-spec formula car series outside of F1 ever again.

 

The heyday of CART when you had 2-3 different chassis makers was entirely an artifact of the big tobacco era of motorsport sponsorship.

 

Those days are gone, and they're never coming back.

 

The tolerance level for 'getting it wrong' has decreased in direct proportion to the reduction of sponsorship money.

 

No one has the money to pick the wrong chassis for the year, and hope they get it right next year.

 

Only three teams in Indycar have anywhere near the resources to do something like the aerokits, and even those got unanimously tossed straight in the bin when one manufacturer got them more right than the other.

 

The most we can hope for is that the next gen car can run and follow each other well in dirty air, and that the engine isn't a overweight hybrid POS.

 

I give us 50/50 on each. And that's me being optimistic.

 

[juicy sushi]

As discussed elsewhere, apparently there is  now a windtunnel model:  https://racer.com/20...-with-2027-car/

 

As written, the article does offer a faint hope that has not yet been noticed:

 

 

 

RACER understands the real-world testing, which is an important early step in evaluating various shapes and overall aerodynamic concepts, commenced in recent weeks at Dallara.

 

So, that would mean that potentially, the car is not really set in design, and changes to respond to owner concerns are being considered.  But there is nothing conclusive either way.  We shall have to wait for a leak.

[PayasYouRace]

Was hoping for a sneaky peak pic.

They’re probably at the stage of evaluating many potential concepts. Far from the minute refinement of an F1 tunnel teat.

[juicy sushi]

One of the lessons I know that has been learned through the IR18 development was that broad, simple shapes are a lot less wake sensitive than lots of little winglets and heavy refinement, so I think we should keep in mind that simple shapes are not a bad sign.

[PayasYouRace]

I thought we already knew that decades ago.

[juicy sushi]

I thought we already knew that decades ago.

There was the general understanding of that in theory, but the IR18 basically just had the raw data through its testing process that kinda proved it.  

[PayasYouRace]

There was the general understanding of that in theory, but the IR18 basically just had the raw data through its testing process that kinda proved it.

Proved what we all knew already. Well done.

[juicy sushi]

Proved what we all knew already. Well done.

Sometimes taking things from theory to proven fact has value.  It shuts down the opportunity for contrarianism to derail meaningful improvements.

[PayasYouRace]

Sometimes taking things from theory to proven fact has value. It shuts down the opportunity for contrarianism to derail meaningful improvements.

I’m just saying: This was proven on track long ago. e.g, the 2009 F1 regulations already built on those facts.

[Ali_G]

Yeah. That was known years ago. Very basic knowledge I would say.

[FLB]

Well, it's generating interest: Supportive of INDYCAR, Reinbold Still Has Full-Time Goal

 

 

Reinbold said there have been advantages to solely focusing on Indy, but it would be difficult at this moment to return to full-time status.

 

“We've learned a lot just focusing on the Indy program,” he said. “So, for us to do (the full season) the right way, (we’d have) to do all the testing necessary to be competitive in every discipline.

 

“Obviously, we're pointing at 2027 as a bit of a reset (if) there's going to be new cars, new engine programs coming in. We want to look toward being part of that.”