109 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Ben Sulayem acknowledges that there would be benefits from having permanent stewards in place, but he says the crux of the issue is over where their salary comes from – because the extra expense is not something the FIA can afford to fund itself.
“It’s very nice talk,” he told Autosport about the calls for a change. “But when they say professional, and they want professional, they don't want to pay for it. That is so obvious.

​“They talk and then they say, ‘where are you putting the money? Why we don't do this?’
“But I don't say, ‘oh, sorry, what about you?’ The drivers are getting over $100 million. Do I ask where they spend it? No, it's up to them. It's their right.
“So please, it’s not only me saying it is none of their business. We do whatever we do with our money. It's our business. It's also [the same] with them and their money. It's their business.
“But I don't really sometimes understand. It's always about the FIA. Why are we doing this? Why are we doing that? But did anyone go to FOM?”
Ben Sulayem went on to explain that some understanding was needed about how much investment was needed to train stewards up.
"I say it again and again - stewards do not grow on trees,” he said. “It takes time to educate them.  It takes time to train them. And then you evolve them, so we have a programme.
“I see the point about having them maybe like the Premier League where they [the referees] are paid. But we don't have the money to do that.
“So we have to be also very careful of the way we are going. As long as they are committed, fair, and they are trained properly, then there will be stewards who come and go.”

 
 
https://www.autospor...-them/10681734/

[OvDrone]

Well, here’s a good destination for all those fines to go in instead who knows who’s pockets.

[PitViperRacing]

3x permanent stewards would cost under $1 million, including accommodation flights etc.

Surely either party can stump up the cost.

[IrvTheSwerve]

With the amount of money floating around, I'm sure they can hire, say, 6 or 7 permanent stewards (that rotate a little due to the large calendar), at a decent wage of £80k a year with expenses and travel paid.

[PayasYouRace]

Those Super Licence fees would pay for them 10 times over.

[Muppetmad]

Well, that's progress. Liberty should cough up the money: the costs would amount to a rounding error for them, in return for which they'd get a competent, permanent stewarding body that would limit the scope for controversies that damage the reputation of the sport (and thus their investment). From a business perspective, it's a no-brainer.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Those Super Licence fees would pay for them 10 times over.

That was the first thing that came to my mind, too.

[JeePee]

The drivers are getting over $100 million. Do I ask where they spend it? No, it's up to them. It's their right.

 

They spend it on the super licence costs.

[SophieB]

Fwiw, although our beloved President has presented this in his usual smooth, soothing style, I remember Dieter Rencken saying that the FIA was probably too broke to afford to pay permanent stewards back when he was writing for Autosport.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

🙋‍♂️

[FLB]

Fwiw, although our beloved President has presented this in his usual smooth, soothing style, I remember Dieter Rencken saying that the FIA was probably too broke to afford to pay permanent stewards back when he was writing for Autosport.

I think it's clear the FIA would make the teams pay for them, by hiking the registration fees by something like four or five times.

[jonklug]

Um pay them from all the fines, superlicence fees or from all the money F1 makes from sponsors and venues? Is this guy for real?

[SophieB]

Um pay them from all the fines, superlicence fees or from all the money F1 makes from sponsors and venues? Is this guy for real?

Perhaps it’s stating the obvious but it is easy to mix up Liberty (the commercial rights holders and where the huge bucks go) and the FIA (owner of the rules and regs, infrastructure). Obviously the FIA do receive considerable funds from licences etc, but they are also obligated to run the FIA’s motoring world empire and all the infrastructure with it. Dieter Rencken has repeatedly said they are doing this having lost out under long past contract dealings. For instance here, in an old article but I think it still applies:

 

 

It is no secret that, having sold the 113-year commercial rights to Ecclestone - for $313m - and ringfenced the funds in the FIA Institute, the FIA finds itself cash-strapped particularly as the $10m-odd the governing body had annually been paid by Ecclestone's entities to administer the championship ceased in 2010 due to an inexplicable contractual quirk. In fact, early last year current FIA president Jean Todt is believed to have attempted a renegotiation of the contract, and, not surprisingly, received short shrift from Ecclestone.

 

 

https://www.autospor...098444/5098444/

[NotAPineapple]

The commmerciam rights holder should see this as a significant step in improving the 'product' and fund this out of their own pocket.

[Augurk]

The commmerciam rights holder should see this as a significant step in improving the 'product' and fund this out of their own pocket.

Of course not. It will probably even decrease value of the product.

[Wuzak]

Um pay them from all the fines, superlicence fees or from all the money F1 makes from sponsors and venues? Is this guy for real?

 

If they pay them from fines, won't there be incentives to levy more, and bigger, fines by the stewards? 

[Wuzak]

Dieter Rencken has repeatedly said they are doing this having lost out under long past contract dealings.

 

The contract dealings between Ecclestone and his mate Mosley?

[SophieB]

The contract dealings between Ecclestone and his mate Mosley?

The Autosport news archive is frustratingly difficult to search, but I’m pretty sure Rencken said the killer move that made the FIA start going about in patchwork rags was done in 2010 when responsibility/cost of administering the championship was moved from FOM to the FIA, which would have been on Jean Todt’s watch.

[PlatenGlass]

Do they not pay for temporary stewards? What's the difference?

[LolaB0860]

Do they not pay for temporary stewards? What's the difference?

Yeah I imagine having constantly changing stewards with temporary contracts actually costs more in long run

Unless they pay them candy, or it's a scheme to pay off gambling debts

Edited by LolaB0860, 12 December 2024 - 12:43.

[Brian60]

Here's an answer - the 1.5 million he should have got as expenses but redirected to bribing member motor clubs to vote for him. That would fund the stewards with money left over to go back in the FIA kitty!

[Autodromo]

Do they not pay for temporary stewards? What's the difference?

This is what puzzled me.  They are still sending a group of people to the venue so why not just the SAME group of people instead of new ones each time.

[Sterzo]

Do they not pay for temporary stewards? What's the difference?

No doubt they pay travelling costs, but I thought every official postion, from marshal to race director, was a voluntary role. In some cases the senior people might also be paid employees of an organising club, but are not paid specifically for their race track activities.

[7MGTEsup]

To have 4 stewards paid £80,000 a year pluse expenses of £6000 per race weekend equates to £896,000 per year, That's less than Verstappen's superlicence fee. I'm pretty sure you can get expenses well below £6000 but I went on the rich prick side of expenses.

[cbo]

Now, now guys.

Papa Ben needs a goldplated helicopter, he cannot be expected to also pay for sports stuff......

😄

[IrvTheSwerve]

No doubt they pay travelling costs, but I thought every official postion, from marshal to race director, was a voluntary role. In some cases the senior people might also be paid employees of an organising club, but are not paid specifically for their race track activities.

 

Yeah, I thought that they probably aren't paid a salary, but get plenty of nice perks. Obviously Paddock access, nice food laid on, first class flights, nice hotels and transfers. It's the prestige of it that probably reels them in, as well as keeping themselves within the sport (especially in the case of driver stewards). I'd guess that the majority of stewards are fairly comfortable financially, anyway.

 

The plus side for the FIA is that they can get people to do it for a relative pittance. The only real costs are the flights and hotels.

 

Edit: I was talking specifically about the stewards - I'd have thought that the RD and other head roles are paid.

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 12 December 2024 - 13:54.

[Wuzak]

No doubt they pay travelling costs, but I thought every official postion, from marshal to race director, was a voluntary role. In some cases the senior people might also be paid employees of an organising club, but are not paid specifically for their race track activities.

 

I'm sure that the race director, starter, scrutineers, technical delegate are all paid positions.

 

Stewards are probably not, though they have their expenses covered.

[Myrvold]

The Autosport news archive is frustratingly difficult to search, but I’m pretty sure Rencken said the killer move that made the FIA start going about in patchwork rags was done in 2010 when responsibility/cost of administering the championship was moved from FOM to the FIA, which would have been on Jean Todt’s watch.

 
The FIA has been bleeding money. They almost ended up at 0 in 2023, but did end up with a small loss: 2023 Financial Report
 
However, the audits showed that FIA lost 12.8m EUR in 2019, 22m EUR in 2020, 24m EUR in 2021, 7.7m EUR in 2022, and 0.8m EUR in 2023.
 
While there is a lot of money in F1, the money goes to FOM and the teams, not the FIA.

 

EDIT: So the question from MBS about who will pay for permanent stewards are absolutely valid. Also, what the heck happens when one fanbase decided that one of the permanent stewards are "biased" ?

Edited by Myrvold, 12 December 2024 - 14:03.

[Autodromo]

I still think Bernd has the best job in the world.

[PlatenGlass]

No doubt they pay travelling costs, but I thought every official postion, from marshal to race director, was a voluntary role. In some cases the senior people might also be paid employees of an organising club, but are not paid specifically for their race track activities.

 

Now that you mention it I think this came up in a previous thread, and I said I'd be happy to do the job for expenses - free travel to every Grand Prix, hotel, free meals...

[7MGTEsup]

Now that you mention it I think this came up in a previous thread, and I said I'd be happy to do the job for expenses - free travel to every Grand Prix, hotel, free meals...

 

I think a lot of people would do it for expense money plus the perks they probably get.

[gillesfan76]

As soon as he likened how the drivers spending their own money and it being their own business to how the FIA spends its money being its own business, you just knew that this guy isn’t just an ordinary idiot. No, he’s a first class idiot.

 

That he goes onto claim that the regulator can’t afford to pay a million dollars a year for 4 permanent stewards tells you that he’s both dishonest and stupid.

[Myrvold]

That he goes onto claim that the regulator can’t afford to pay a million dollars a year for 4 permanent stewards tells you that he’s both dishonest and stupid.

 

Well, they have been losing money for quite some years now. So more out? Then they need to get more in somehow, it comes to a point where that money is going to come from grassroots.

[Marklar]

you'd think there is enough money left after he fired everyone

Edited by Marklar, 12 December 2024 - 14:25.

[Autodromo]

Well, they have been losing money for quite some years now. So more out? Then they need to get more in somehow, it comes to a point where that money is going to come from grassroots.

The organization as a whole has boatloads (literally) of money.  Surely they can spring for aa $1M expense given the way the current situation makes them look like a clown show.

[arrysen]

3x permanent stewards would cost under $1 million, including accommodation flights etc.

Surely either party can stump up the cost.

The flights and accommodation are already largely being paid for the existing stewards' system (one local steward at each GP, who may not live locally and still need travel etc. and two stewards from an international roster, plus the ex-driver steward). 

 

So the additional cost would be travel & accom for one steward, plus salaries of some kind for all four.

[arrysen]

MBS being his usual classless self on this. What he SHOULD have said is that the FIA is open to the idea and can have discussions with FOM on it. Clearly the question of who pays would be part of any such discussion, as would the question of who exactly goes on the permanent stewards' panel. 

 

If it was me at FOM, I'd understand the need to contribute financially (either in part or the whole amount) but I'd want a say on who is on the panel (which paying for it gives me). Bring back Tim Mayer for example.

 

It would be a demanding gig - 24 international race weekends, plus travel time at each end. Wouldn't leave a whole lot of room for any other revenue raising opportunities for the people concerned.

 

MBS could take us down a path of permanent stewards but his utterly classless approach might just be enough to kibosh it. 

[Myrvold]

The organization as a whole has boatloads (literally) of money.  Surely they can spring for aa $1M expense given the way the current situation makes them look like a clown show.

 

They are still not ending the years at 0 though, so they are losing money, and are supposed to spend more? Then they need to increase income as well, it needs to come from somewhere.

[JeePee]

To have 4 stewards paid £80,000 a year pluse expenses of £6000 per race weekend equates to £896,000 per year, That's less than Verstappen's superlicence fee. I'm pretty sure you can get expenses well below £6000 but I went on the rich prick side of expenses.

Hmmm, I don't think the 6000 includes a sandwich at the Miami GP?

[PlatenGlass]

I think a lot of people would do it for expense money plus the perks they probably get.

The job is mine. Stay away.

[MikeTekRacing]

To have 4 stewards paid £80,000 a year pluse expenses of £6000 per race weekend equates to £896,000 per year, That's less than Verstappen's superlicence fee. I'm pretty sure you can get expenses well below £6000 but I went on the rich prick side of expenses.

Flying 4 people around is pretty expensive. Hotels are pretty expensive etc.

[MikeTekRacing]

I think a lot of people would do it for expense money plus the perks they probably get.

the problem with not paying someone is you can't have professional expectations.

This is not a Sunday race club. It's a world class sport and needs to have professionals 

[Autodromo]

They are still not ending the years at 0 though, so they are losing money, and are supposed to spend more? Then they need to increase income as well, it needs to come from somewhere.

My point is simply that there are many, many wealthy groups, people and organizations that run this show.  Between them they can surely cough up sufficient funds in what for most of them is a rounding error on their monthly budget.  This is not just one single organization.  

[Myrvold]

My point is simply that there are many, many wealthy groups, people and organizations that run this show.  Between them they can surely cough up sufficient funds in what for most of them is a rounding error on their monthly budget.  This is not just one single organization.  

 

So, back to the start again then, as MBS says. Who will pay for it?

[Autodromo]

So, back to the start again then, as MBS says. Who will pay for it?

And my point is that there are many valid and available funding streams.  In a sport where every team is worth over a billion dollars, "how do we pay for this trivial expense that has huge impacts on the safety and reputation of this sport" seems like a silly barrier.  Tax the teams $100,000 each and you're done.  MBS could probably pay for this out of his pocket.

[7MGTEsup]

Flying 4 people around is pretty expensive. Hotels are pretty expensive etc.

 

I allowed 6K for expenses per weekend, if you can't travel, sleep and eat for 6K for 3 nights then you're living in a world with which I'm not familiar.

[Nathan]

FOM needs to be concerned about the integrity of the sport.  FIA has the World Championship titles and history regardless.  It would be in FOMs interest to have professional stewards.

[Ruusperi]

Ben Sulayem and "Permanent position" is something that doesn't exist.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Maybe after every incident they should put a poll on here to decide the penalty, with a 10 minute time limit.

 

Getting the fans involved and all that.

[MikeTekRacing]

I allowed 6K for expenses per weekend, if you can't travel, sleep and eat for 6K for 3 nights then you're living in a world with which I'm not familiar.

i meant 6k for all 4....