43 replies to this topic

[MKSixer]

The season has ended and we have 9X days until the first race. This being the case, we need SOMETHING to do before potential trouble brews from inactivity!! Let's talk about the 2025 Driver pairings and how they look, thus far.

 

AMG-Mercedes:        Kimi Antonelli and George Russell

McLaren:                    Lando Norris and Oscar Piastri

Williams:                    Carlos Sainz and Alexander Albon

Red Bull Racing:        Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez

Aston-Martin:             Lance Stroll and Fernando Alonso

Scuderia Ferrari:        Charles Leclerc and Sir Lewis Hamilton

Sauber:                      Nico Hulkenberg and Gabriel Bortoleto           

Haas:                         Esteban Ocon and Ollie Bearman

Alpine:                       Pierre Gasley and Jack Doohan

Racing Bulls:             Yuki Tsunoda and TBA

 

Clearly, the most anticipated pairing is Lewis Hamilton and Charles Leclerc. The question first and foremost in everyone's mind is: Does the old man still have it and can he officially win #8.  I think this will be the most exciting pair to watch. The Norris-Piastri pairing is intriguing because I believe Oscar is the better driver and only needs a bit more seasoning. (Yes...I know this is sacrilege.) The Russell-Antonelli pairing has me thinking Kimi may pull the same first turn, outside pass that Lewis made on Fernando all those years ago. Max and Sergio is a known quantity...nothing new to see here. Same thing for the Stroll-Alonso pairing. I think the Ocon-Bearman pairing will prove to be a bit of a surprise with Bearman having the upper hand. Alpine's Gasley and Doohan pairing has the same vibe as the Ocon-Bearman pairing but I believe Gasley will prevail.  Though Alonso thinks Bortoleto is the best rookie on the grid, I still think The Hulk will prevail in the Sauber. No comment on Tsunoda until we know who his team mate will be.

 

What say you?  

 

  

 

 

[Marklar]

It's clearly Ferrari: Leclerc beats everyone bar Verstappen in terms of the best lead driver, Hamilton beats probably every #2 driver even in his weak season this year that may have not been representative (Piastri has been weaker so far, but could obviously have potential, same for Kimi)

Then McLaren as Piastri is a better known quantity than Antonelli and better than Perez and Albon.

Then I actually think it's close between Mercedes, Red Bull and Williams. A lot depends on how you think Antonelli will do. Perez is obviously the weakest (in the current set up) of the five already active drivers, but Verstappen is the strongest.

Sauber, Haas & Alpine have similar strong lead drivers, probably Ocon is the weakest of the three, but on the other hand Bearman is the most proven of the three rookies. Then if you add Vcarb with Tsunoda (similar as Ocon imo) and Lawson (more proven than the rookies, albeit with less potential) they are all fairly close.

Aston Martin is then the worst IMO, albeit really marginally. Alonso is no longer significantly better than the lead drivers in the above mentioned group to balance out Stroll, who is probably the worst driver (besides Perez, but he is a special case anyway) remaining on the grid. Could bump up if one of the rookies in the above group disappoints (I am very sceptical personally of Doohan) but no chance to get into the top 5.

Edited by Marklar, Yesterday, 00:36.

[KPower]

1. Ferrari
2. McLaren
3. Williams
4. Red Bull
5. Aston
6. Mercedes
7. Haas
8. Sauber
9. Alpine
10. VCARB

 

Easy pick for #1 is Leclerc/Hamilton, even with Hamilton's qualifying troubles this year. If Ferrari and McLaren have evenly matched cars across the year, I can't see Norris/Piastri beating them at this point. It's hard for me to put Red Bull in the top 3 as its essentially a one driver team although that one driver is probably worth 2 at this point. 

 

Williams has the most complete lineup in the midfield and if they have a decent car next year, should be able to make some noise. 

 

I'm placing teams with rookies in the bottom half as I have no way of determining the new drivers' skill levels. Obviously, if these guys make strides across the season, the order will change. I understand Antonelli in particular to be a massive talent, but I think the pressure of possibly running up front will put him in situations that he's just not going to be prepared for. Sauber/Alpine/Haas are all about the same to me and can be put in any position. VCARB would have to bring up the rear. I rate Tsunoda but not higher than the other drivers also paired next to rookies.

[HP]

I'd go for Ferrari, then McLaren. After them it's not easy for me to position the other teams, except if I consider single drivers in a team, then next is Red Bull, then Mercedes and finally Williams. The rest I have not enough info to form a serious opinion.

[Alfisti]

This year it was between Ferrari and mercedes, the Lewis moves puts Ferrari miles in front.

Ferrari
Mclaren
Red bull
Williams
Mercedes

[tourister46a]

My completely objective ranking

 

1. Ferrari: Leclerc + Hamilton = 93 + 90 = 183

2. McLaren: Norris + Piastri = 90 + 85 = 175

3. Mercedes: Russell + Antonelli = 90 + 83 = 173

4. Williams: Sainz + Albon = 87 + 78 = 166

5. Haas: Ocon + Bearman = 85 + 80 = 165

6. Red Bull: Verstappen + Perez = 95 + 65 = 160

7. Aston Martin: Alonso + Stroll = 84 + 69 = 153

8. Sauber: Hulkenberg + Bortoletto = 84 + 68 = 152

9. Racing Bulls: Tsunoda + Lawson = 76 + 74 = 150

10. Alpine: Gasly + Doohan = 85 + 64 = 149

Edited by tourister46a, Yesterday, 04:42.

[PitViperRacing]

Ferrari
McLaren
Williams
Red Bull
Mercedes
Haas
Aston Martin
Racing Bulls
Sauber
Alpine

[keshav]

McLaren
Ferrari - Hamilton himself is saying he has no speed!
Williams
Mercedes
Red Bull
Haas
Asron Martin
Sauber
Alpine
RB

[Ragamuffin]

Verstappen goes a long way to compensating for Perez. Norris, Leclerc and Ol' Russ are much of a muchness, so it's down to the other drivers in those teams - Kimi is an unknown, and I would still rather have a sometimes misfiring Hamilton over Piastri, but it's close. Williams have one good and one almost great driver, so slightly less likely to have an outstanding weekend.

 

So Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull, Merc, Williams, then blah blah blah.

[PlatenGlass]

A few of you seem to think Kimi is making a comeback. Unless you mean Andrea Kimi Antonelli AKA AKA...

But anyway Leclerc/Hamilton is the obvious choice for best. Piastri would need to massively up his game for him/Norris. And Antonelli is obviously an unknown who finished 6th in the F2 championship so we'll have to wait and see on AKA/Russell.

Edited by PlatenGlass, Yesterday, 07:55.

[Frood]

It’s Leclerc and Hamilton.

Also, Antonelli calls himself Kimi, therefore his name is Kimi.

[messy]

Looking through them I think what’s interesting is that every team pretty much has question marks over their second driver. There isn’t one team where you’d say it was just unquestionably a strong, balanced pairing in the way you previously would have about, for example, Hamilton-Russell, Leclerc-Sainz, even Gasly-Ocon in midfielder terms. Either the second driver is very inexperienced or goes into 2025 with major question marks hanging over them.

Closest to a really strong lineup is Norris-Piastri or Leclerc-Hamilton I think.

[Anderis]

Did this on another forum:

1. Ferrari= 18 (Leclerc 9, Hamilton 9)
2. Mercedes = 17 (Russell 9, Antonelli 8)
3. McLaren = 16.5 (Norris 9, Piastri 7.5)
4. Red Bull = 16 (Verstappen 10, Perez/Lawson/Tsunoda 6)
5. Williams = 14 (Sainz 8, Albon 6)
6. Haas = 13.5 (Ocon 7, Bearman 6.5)
7. Aston Martin = 13 (Alonso 8, Stroll 5)
7. Audi= 13 (Hulkenberg 7, Bortoleto 6)
9. RB = 11-12 (Tsunoda/Lawson 6, Hadjar 5)
10. Alpine = 10.5 (Gasly 6.5, Doohan 4)

 

It's for sure not 100% accurate, future performances don't always folow the patterns of the past (who would've predicted how bad Ricciardo was going to be at McLaren and at the same time- who would've rated him above Vettel before 2014?) and the values for rookies are highly speculative but it's my best effort.

Edited by Anderis, Yesterday, 09:22.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Did this on another forum:

1. Ferrari= 18 (Leclerc 9, Hamilton 9)
2. Mercedes = 17 (Russell 9, Antonelli 8)
3. McLaren = 16.5 (Norris 9, Piastri 7.5)
4. Red Bull = 16 (Verstappen 10, Perez/Lawson/Tsunoda 6)
5. Williams = 14 (Sainz 8, Albon 6)
6. Haas = 13.5 (Ocon 7, Bearman 6.5)
7. Aston Martin = 13 (Alonso 8, Stroll 5)
7. Audi= 13 (Hulkenberg 7, Bortoleto 6)
9. RB = 11-12 (Tsunoda/Lawson 6, Hadjar 5)
10. Alpine = 10.5 (Gasly 6.5, Doohan 4)

 

It's for sure not 100% accurate, future performances don't always folow the patterns of the past (who would've predicted how bad Ricciardo was going to be at McLaren and at the same time- who would've rated him above Vettel before 2014?) and the values for rookies are highly speculative but it's my best effort.

Relatively unknown Antonelli who didn’t set the world alight in F2 (and smashed a F1 car right at the start of an FP session) being rated the same as Alonso and Sainz and better than drivers like Piastri, Ocon, Hulkenberg and Albon?

 

Boy, the pressure on this kid to perform is unlike anything I’ve ever seen.

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, Yesterday, 09:44.

[Mat13]

I can’t decide between Ferrari and McLaren. Leclerc has been very good this year, but I’ve never been 100% convinced about him for some reason, he always came across as fast but error-prone. McLaren would have been the obvious pick earlier in the year, but Piastri definitely isn’t on Norris’ level. Hamilton I honestly can’t place at the moment- and I really rate Sainz as well, so I’m a little unsure on how much of an upgrade current Hamilton is.

[Heyli]

It’s Leclerc and Hamilton.

Also, Antonelli calls himself Kimi, therefore his name is Kimi.

I assume all drivers actually call themselves by their first name!

[Ali623]

The only 'known' lineups are McLaren, Red Bull (currently) and Aston Martin. Then the only other lineups without rookies are Ferrari and Williams. RB we technically don't even have confirmation of their lineup yet.

 

Ferrari are clearly the best on paper, unless Hamilton really does decline massively next year. 

 

After that you'd have to say McLaren, Mercedes depends on Antonelli (I rate Russell and Norris similarly).

 

Red Bull have Max, who's the best driver, but are massively offset by a completly underperforming Perez right now.

 

Sainz we know is good, but not as good as Leclerc and probably slightly behind Norris/Russell. Albon is expected to be worse than him. But Williams are probably best of the rest.

 

Aston have Stroll who is largely not good. Alonso it depends how you currently rate him. Personally I don't think he's much better these days than your midfield drivers like Ocon, Gasly etc. 

 

Alpine and Haas have similar looking lineups to be honest. Sauber maybe slightly worse (I rate Gasly/Ocon ahead of Hulkenberg).

 

 

1. Ferrari

2. McLaren

3. Mercedes

4. Red Bull

5. Williams

6. Alpine / Haas

7. AM / Sauber

8. RB 

[Mc_Silver]

On paper, Ferrari have the strongest line-up but I expect Oscar to step it up next year and will form formidable pairing with Lando in McLaren. Lewis will be strong in races but I don't think he has the speed he used to have in qualifying anymore.

1. McLaren
2. Ferrari
3. Mercedes
4. Red Bull
5. Williams
6. Sauber
7. Haas
8. AM
9. Alpine
10.RB

[Sterzo]

...but I expect Oscar to step it up next year...

Why? What's happened? The guy's done (I think) 58 F1 races. He's excellent, but why will he improve when all the others won't?

[PlatenGlass]

It’s Leclerc and Hamilton.

Also, Antonelli calls himself Kimi, therefore his name is Kimi.

He would still be Antonelli. Drivers are generally referred to by their surnames unless they're pretty established. If he was Andrea Jonathan Antonelli and he used his middle name, people would call him Antonelli. It's only because of Raikkonen that people are becoming overly familiar with the guy who came 6th in the F2 championship.

[Gravelngrass]

Ferrari
McLaren
Red Bull
Mercedes
The rest

[PlatenGlass]

Why? What's happened? The guy's done (I think) 58 F1 races. He's excellent, but why will he improve when all the others won't?

This is one reason why there are still doubts about Norris. It took him two years to not establish himself over Sainz.

[MRX94]

At the start of 2025? Ferrari, easily. Although personal biases aside, I can also see the case for McLaren.

By the end of 2025? Mercedes. Antonelli will end the season there or thereabouts with Russell, probably beating him on pure pace already. I have faith in the kid.

[Analog]

It will be interesting to see how Albon deals with having a strong team mate. While he had to deal with rejects, he seemed like a top 3 driver, but as soon as he got a bit of competition he started to make mistakes. Maybe 2025 will be 2020 all over again. 

[Ragamuffin]

This is one reason why there are still doubts about Norris. It took him two years to not establish himself over Sainz.

It took three seasons for Verstappen to establish himself over Ricciardo, who was trounced by Norris who was beaten by Sainz who beat Leclerc the following year, who beat Vettel who was beaten by Ricciardo.

[PlatenGlass]

It took three seasons for Verstappen to establish himself over Ricciardo, who was trounced by Norris who was beaten by Sainz who beat Leclerc the following year, who beat Vettel who was beaten by Ricciardo.

Verstappen was better in 2017, the 2nd year (first whole year). Points don't tell the whole story.

[PrinceBira]

It took three seasons for Verstappen to establish himself over Ricciardo, who was trounced by Norris who was beaten by Sainz who beat Leclerc the following year, who beat Vettel who was beaten by Ricciardo.

It took Verstappen half a season.

[messy]

This is one reason why there are still doubts about Norris. It took him two years to not establish himself over Sainz.

Always got the feeling that Norris was potentially slightly faster than Sainz though, even in the early days. It was about becoming a better all-rounder. Piastri is already a good all-rounder on his day if a bit inconsistent, it’s the speed that isn’t quite coming. It’s a strange one. He’s already kinda the Sainz to Norris’….Norris.

[Anderis]

Relatively unknown Antonelli who didn’t set the world alight in F2 (and smashed a F1 car right at the start of an FP session) being rated the same as Alonso and Sainz and better than drivers like Piastri, Ocon, Hulkenberg and Albon?

 

Boy, the pressure on this kid to perform is unlike anything I’ve ever seen.

As I say, the values for the rookies are highly speculative. I can imagine Antonelli being everything from 6 to 9 so 8 represents the averaging of that expectations, although leaning slightly towards the optimistic side.

 

Bearman beat Hulkenberg in the same car as a stand-in driver and I struggle to imagine that Antonelli will prove to be less talented than him.

 

A lot has been said about his F2 performances this year so I won't be repeating the same points and surely smashing a car during an FP session is not the indication of anything, all drivers have done similar things at some point.

 

What we know about drivers like Piastri, Ocon, Hulkenberg and Albon, even Sainz, is that they're not generational talents. Antonelli may be. Last time a driver was hyped to the same extent at comparably early stage of his career was with Verstappen and it proved to be justified. And the fact he's being promoted straight to Mercedes means people much more knowledgeable than us, forum members here, believe the hype. And if drivers like Colapinto and Bearman could hit the ground running in 2024, I don't believe lack of experience is going to hold back Antonelli that much.

[vlado]

Ferrari are in a very privileged position with their driver pairing because they don’t even need to produce the fastest car in order to win the WCC, it just needs to be competitive and they will deliver.

[Red5ive]

I assume all drivers actually call themselves by their first name!

 

 

Kimi is not his first name - so no.

[PlatenGlass]

Also it's not like e.g. Jackie Stewart (actually John), where Jackie is in all the results and listings. He's down as Andrea Kimi Antonelli.

[IrvTheSwerve]

As I say, the values for the rookies are highly speculative. I can imagine Antonelli being everything from 6 to 9 so 8 represents the averaging of that expectations, although leaning slightly towards the optimistic side.

 

Bearman beat Hulkenberg in the same car as a stand-in driver and I struggle to imagine that Antonelli will prove to be less talented than him.

 

A lot has been said about his F2 performances this year so I won't be repeating the same points and surely smashing a car during an FP session is not the indication of anything, all drivers have done similar things at some point.

 

What we know about drivers like Piastri, Ocon, Hulkenberg and Albon, even Sainz, is that they're not generational talents. Antonelli may be. Last time a driver was hyped to the same extent at comparably early stage of his career was with Verstappen and it proved to be justified. And the fact he's being promoted straight to Mercedes means people much more knowledgeable than us, forum members here, believe the hype. And if drivers like Colapinto and Bearman could hit the ground running in 2024, I don't believe lack of experience is going to hold back Antonelli that much.

 

Yeah, obviously all speculative and I'm not picking on you specifically, you can have your opinion and prediction on KA.   I just find it crazy how much hype and pressure is being put on him. I can't remember Max having anywhere near this much hype, as promising as we knew he was.

[F1Frog]

1. Ferrari (Leclerc/Hamilton)

2. McLaren (Norris/Piastri)

3. Mercedes (Russell/Antonelli)

4. Red Bull (Verstappen/Perez)

5. Williams (Sainz/Albon)

6. Haas (Ocon/Bearman)

7. Sauber (Hulkenberg/Bortoleto)

8. Alpine (Gasly/Doohan)

9. Aston Martin (Alonso/Stroll)

10. Racing Bulls (Tsunoda/Lawson)

[ANF]

1. Verstappen / Lawson
2. Leclerc / Hamilton
3. Norris / Piastri
4. Sainz / Albon
5. Antonelli / Russell
6. Ocon / Bearman
7. Gasly / Doohan
8. Stroll / Alonso
9. Hülkenberg / Bortoleto
10. Tsunoda / Hadjar

[DeKnyff]

Ferrari by a country mile. However, I don’t think this is an advantage for the drivers Championship.

[Ragamuffin]

Verstappen was better in 2017, the 2nd year (first whole year). Points don't tell the whole story.

They rarely do when your favourite driver gets beaten, but are an ample barometer for all other drivers apparently. That wasn't even my point though tbh, rather the Escheresque task of using former teammates as a stick with which to beat drivers four years down the line. Especially ones, like Sainz, who have proven themselves to be very good. Ferrari don't hire chumps, so for a teenage rookie not to beat him isn't the black mark you think it is.

Edited by Ragamuffin, Today, 06:38.

[Sterzo]

They rarely do when your favourite driver gets beaten, but are an ample barometer for all other drivers apparently. That wasn't even my point though tbh, rather the Escheresque task of using former teammates as a stick with which to beat drivers four years down the line. Especially ones, like Sainz, who have proven themselves to be very good. Ferrari don't hire chumps, so for a teenage rookie not to beat him isn't the black mark you think it is.

Do we need these tiresome "your favourite driver" accusations? If you disagree with PlatenGlass's perfectly reasonable point, why not refute it with facts or logic? For the record, I agree with him, and I don't have a favourite driver.

[Spillage]

It's Ferrari and it's not close. The only question is whether it's too strong, and whether Leclerc and Hamilton might take enough points off each other for them both to lose the championship.

[Gravelngrass]

Bearman beat Hulkenberg in the same car as a stand-in driver and I struggle to imagine that Antonelli will prove to be less talented than him.

 

I think the sample size for that affirmation is a bit small? 

[Ragamuffin]

Do we need these tiresome "your favourite driver" accusations? If you disagree with PlatenGlass's perfectly reasonable point, why not refute it with facts or logic? For the record, I agree with him, and I don't have a favourite driver.

 "He was better" is hardly a compelling arguement. Glad you agree with him. I probably agree too if you look at all metrics bar points. Trouble is, it wasn't even my main point but we have to get sidetracked in tedious pedantry. No rebuke from you there though, you just hear the dog whistle phrase and away you go, slightly sanctimoniously, taking us even further away from where we started. Well played.

[TheAviator]

It took three seasons for Verstappen to establish himself over Ricciardo, who was trounced by Norris who was beaten by Sainz who beat Leclerc the following year, who beat Vettel who was beaten by Ricciardo.

Nope, Max was faster driver already in 2017. 2018 it was not even debatable.

2016, with 16 and getting into RB as Kyvat replacement cannot be taken as comparison (even there on raw speed he was right there with Ric after 5-6 races)

[DutchQuicksilver]

1. Ferrari. Seems like a no brainer. Leclerc is still improving and in the top three of current F1 drivers. Hamiltonm although declining a bit on one lap pace, is still an upgrade over Sainz I feel.

2. McLaren. Slightly behind Ferrari. Norris is a bit weaker than Leclerc and Piastri, while consistent over a whole season, still lacks consistent strong race pace.

3. Red Bull . Mostly due to Verstappen of course. The second driver, being Perez, Tsunoda or Lawson is their weak point. I feel all three of them are at about the same pace.

4. Mercedes. Russell is solid pair of hands and, well assuming Antonelli is the real deal, they have a very good strong talent in the second seat.

5. Williams. Not far behind Mercedes. Although I rate Sainz higher than Russell, I don’t rate Albon that much. He’s a bit weaker than the likes of Perez, Lawson and Tsunoda.

6. Haas. Ocon is a decent F1 driver and Bearman has impressed in his few F1 races, beating Hulkenberg wheares Magnussen could hardly.

7. Aston Martin. Mostly due to Alonso of course. Stroll is one of the weakest drivers on the current grid.

8. Stake F1 Team. Hulkenberg is still a decent driver, but behind Ocon and Alonso. Bortoleto is a bit of an unknown to me.

9. VCARB. Close to #8. Tsunoda is a decent midfield driver. And assuming Lawson is the #2 VCARB next year, also decent, though a bit unproven yet.

10. Alpine. Definitely the weakest, but mostly due to their #2 driver. Gasly is a solid midfield driver on the level of Ocon and Hulkenberg. But, Doohan? Meh.

[PlatenGlass]

They rarely do when your favourite driver gets beaten, but are an ample barometer for all other drivers apparently. That wasn't even my point though tbh, rather the Escheresque task of using former teammates as a stick with which to beat drivers four years down the line. Especially ones, like Sainz, who have proven themselves to be very good. Ferrari don't hire chumps, so for a teenage rookie not to beat him isn't the black mark you think it is.

I don't see it as a black mark, more of a question mark, which can be in green.

I don't particularly have a favourite driver either!