14 replies to this topic

[tsrwright]

I found the following on the French Wikipedia:

 

Le 29 avril 1899, une course de vitesse est organisée par la revue La France automobile sur la route centrale du parc agricole d'Achères, une piste de 2 km de long. Elle oppose la Jamais Contente, pilotée par Camille Jenatzy, à une Jeantaud au volant de laquelle se trouve de Chasseloup-Laubat. La Jamais Contente est alors la première voiture à franchir la barre symbolique des 100 km/h. Lors de la troisième manche, elle parcourt le premier kilomètre de piste en 34 secondes, atteignant ainsi la vitesse record de 105,879 km/h5,9, pulvérisant ainsi le record du comte de Chasseloup-Laubat qui était de 92,78 km/h en date du 4 mars 1899.

 

Note that the definite article before the car name is not in italics not does it normally have an italic initial letter.

 

In English, do you think the car is correctly called Never Content or The Never Content?

 

Most English sources have the definite article but I have deliberately not used it in a book I have recently published. You see the ship Queen Mary was not referred to as The Queen Mary. It's name was Queen Mary but although it is referred to as the Queen Mary I believe that doesn't make the part of the name.

 

What do other pedants think?

 

Is there a grammarian out there who can comment?

Edited by tsrwright, 14 December 2024 - 05:50.

[robert dick]

Jenatzy christened his car "La Jamais Contente".
In French language la "Jamais Contente" was/is used in order to avoid la "La Jamais Contente".

The Autocar/London, 6 May 1899:
"The car which Jenatzy was riding was the famous 'Jamais Contente,' an appropriate name certainly for a record vehicle, which is never satisfied with its performances, but is always anxious to go one better. [...] The car is painted a greyish blue with her name, 'La Jamais Contente,' near the bow."

Photo from the Jules Beau collection/Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris,
taken during the Fête des Tuileries, a few weeks after the record run through the Parc d'Achères.
The name "La Jamais Contente" is painted in curved form:

 

[BRG]

Most English sources have the definite article but I have deliberately not used it in a book I have recently published. You see the ship Queen Mary was not referred to as The Queen Mary. It's name was Queen Mary but although it is referred to as the Queen Mary I believe that doesn't make the part of the name.

It is usual practice when referring to any ship to preface the name with "the" but I think this is not a rule, just that it is easier to say it that way.  You can perfectly correctly also say "I crossed the Atlantic on Queen Mary" but that might be open to a ribald and possibly treasonous misinterpretation which using "the" would avoid.

 

Whether the same thing applies in French is one for native speakers.  But if Jenatzy painted "La" on the car, that must count for something?

 

One thing I just learnt is that both Jenatzy and the vehicle were Belgian, not Frenc h as I always blithely assumed!

[Vitesse2]

Unless it actually says 'the' on the ship's hull, then the word 'the' should be in lower case. In the Queen Mary example the ship's official name was actually RMS Queen Mary (RMS = Royal Mail Steamer or Ship - only authorised/contracted vessels could carry His/Her Majesty's mails. Other powered vessels are prefixed SS.) Thread at StackExchange: https://english.stac...uns-such-as-the

 

 

Jenatzy was presumably just being contrary and/or asserting its uniqueness as - to continue the example - the names of French liners like France and Normandie did not include the definite article.

 

[Pullman99]

Continuing the maritime theme, in the 1980s I was involved with the promotion of the Victorian warship HMS Warrior in Portsmouth.   The Royal Navy, in documents, generally used upper case letters for both the prefix "HMS" and the ship's name but the use of italics for the ship's name - but never the prefix - was also acceptable.   So, if Camille Jenatzy incorporated the definitive article "La" in the car's name then, presumably, we should follow suit.   I think that I have always written the car's name in this form and, as Robert has indicated, this avoids the nomenclature issue in French.

 

(Photo: National Museum of the Royal Navy)

 

Best wishes Terry for your new book "Speed Monarch" BTW!  See link below:

 

https://loosefilling...loose-fillings/

Edited by Pullman99, 15 December 2024 - 11:37.

[BRG]

Thread at StackExchange: https://english.stac...uns-such-as-the

Having perused that thread, I wish nobody had ever raised the issue!!

[Doug Nye]

While lapsing into justifiable pedantry don't overlook the nautical preface 'MV' before a ship's name, indicating 'Motor Vessel' as distinct from 'SS' for 'Screw Steam' or just 'Steam Ship' according to different sources. An 'MV' was and remains most commonly diesel-powered.  Then insurance and commercial legalities developed 'MT' for 'Motor Tanker', demanding more stringent safety compliance, or indeed the more exclusive and high-falutin' 'RMS' for 'Royal Mail Ship'.  Less obvious was 'PS' for 'Paddle Steamer' or 'FV' for 'Fishing Vessel' and in more recent times 'NS' for 'Nuclear Ship', then 'LPG/C' for 'Liquefied Petroleum Gas Carrier' and of course 'ULCV' for 'Ultra-Large Container Vessel'.  There are dozens of such prefixes now current.

 

In terms of obscurity I feel peculiarly attracted to 'TSHD' - 'Trailing Suction Hopper Dredger'...    

 

DCN

[BRG]

 'Trailing Suction Hopper Dredger'...    

That more than adequately describes some of the less salubrious bits of the F1 media.  Especially the YouTube click-bait channels that I cannot manage to suppress.

[tsrwright]

As mentioned, The Autocar used the short form without La so I am in good company but I must acknowledge that the definite article is there in the name on the car.

 

So using The would seem to be correct.

 

Thanks for the feedback and interesting links.

 

TW

[Odseybod]

Conversely, no definite article here, though that doesn't stop people adding one.

 

 

(fine with the train of the same name, of course).

 

Yet apparently, no one's tempted to refer to its speedy relative as The Mallard.

 

[robert dick]

Interesting page from the Paris weekly La Vie au Grand Air/14 May 1899:


Jenatzy's electric was towed from Paris to Achères by Léon Lefebvre's Bolide,
because the accus were empty after a single record run.

btw:
German racing cyclist Paul Albert was amateur world champion and was to drive a Mercedes Sixty in the 1903 Paris-Madrid.
He was killed on 15 May 1903 in a practice spin near Nieder-Ingelheim, Mainz, Germany,

= = = =

Jenatzy's intention to start in the 1899 Paris-Ostende at the wheel of his never content electric did not materialise:


During the summer months Jenatzy drove a Mors in the 1899 Tour de France, the Paris-Saint-Malo and the Paris-Ostende.
 

[BRG]

Yet apparently, no one's tempted to refer to its speedy relative as The Mallard.

Perversely, rail enthusiasts tend to call the named express train "The Flying Scotsman" but call the famous locomotive just "Flying Scotsman" although the general public usually adds the "The" when referring to it. 

 

But never when speaking of "Mallard" as you rightly say. This is the English language that we are discussing, where the one thing that is consistent is the inconsistency.

[Vitesse2]

Perversely, rail enthusiasts tend to call the named express train "The Flying Scotsman" but call the famous locomotive just "Flying Scotsman" although the general public usually adds the "The" when referring to it.

The general public would be wrong then (not for the first or last time). And I've seen several documentaries about Flying Scotsman, which usually emphasise the difference, as well as pointedly not using the definite article when referring to the locomotive. The official name of the express train always included it on the name board - because that's what LNER - and later BR - called it.

 

 

Most other named expresses included the definite article on the name board - The Cornishman, The Elizabethan, The Capitals Limited, The White Rose, The Northumbrian, The Aberdonian, The Norseman, The Scarborough Flyer, etc etc. Oddly, the Tyne-Tees Pullman included the definite article in its publicity, but not on the name board!

[Geoff E]

The official name of the express train always included it on the name board - because that's what LNER - and later BR - called it.

 

 

 

Alas, this wasn't always the case 

https://preservedbri...-suspended..jpg

https://zerowest.wat...t-watches-6.jpg

Edited by Geoff E, 16 December 2024 - 11:19.

[Odseybod]

As mentioned, it's just the English language/usage at its most 'flexible'.

 

Back to automotive record breakers and I'm wondering if it all comes down to something as simple/idiotic as the number of words in a car's name. So, never THE Thunderbolt, THE Thrust or THE Bluebird (well, maybe in its first, two word incarnation - or have I misremembered The Blue Bird?) but often (rightly or wrongly) The Golden Arrow, The Spirit of America, The Green Monster, The Magic Midget, The Napier Railton Special and so on.

 

And we also have The White Riley and The Vauxhall Villiers - being a one-off is no excuse, since most record-breakers are, too.

 

Note that I'm carefully not mentioning Speed of the Wind - putting the definite article in front of that might suggest you're about to quote an actual numerical value.