19 replies to this topic

[JordanIreland]

After a perplexing 2024, there is a lot to be optimistic, for the Williams team in 2025 but not on ultimate performance.

It’s the first time since 2017 that the team has a multiple race winner in the car. That experience does carry a lot of value and will drive the team forward. Plus Carlos has a point to prove.

2024 was heavily compromised due to instilling more effective and efficient working methodologies. Plus far too many crashes.

Not 100% sure if the team has hired sufficient top class engineers. That aspect seems very quiet.

Here is hoping to a successful 2025 and that the team makes real progress.

While I do see the team developing as a team (internally) I’m guessing the team will finish last. Why?

Sauber will not be as bad as 2024 and they have a lot more resources. Haas is very strong from both a developmental and operational perspective plus have Toyota support. All the other teams are currently a step ahead of Williams.

I hope I’m wrong, but it might be 2026 before Williams can have the full benefit of all their current efforts.

[KPower]

I think you might be a little too down on Williams' prospects.

 

The FW46 would've made fairly regular appearances in Q3 had it come in on weight, even before the post-summer upgrade. The FW47 will also be the first car completely under Pat Fry and Matt Harman, who were a pretty good team at Alpine(the 2022 and 2023 models were very solid points scoring cars).

 

The driver lineup is undoubtedly the best outside of Ferrari/Red Bull/McLaren IMO. They will need to take advantage of almost every other midfield team having one rookie.

 

The only thing that will cap improvement over 2024 will be lack of in-season development. If Vowles refuses to upgrade anything, then yes, they could be looking at last place.

 

In any case, I don't think they're in a worse spot than Sauber and Haas going forward at the very least. Williams has 300 more employees than both of those teams. 

Edited by KPower, Yesterday, 03:09.

[Beri]

Is this the first Teams Thread of 2025? At least it's one thing Williams has won at!
But I think 2025 will see much of the same as 2024. Only I hope the drivers won't bin it as much. Meaning (a couple of) more points and perhaps one or two spots up the ladder in the final standings.
Anything other would either make my day or leave me with a true heartbreak.

[FullThrottleF1]

Williams has improved - it's now only the 3rd most irrelevant F1 team in the sport, behind RB and Alpine.

[JordanIreland]

I think you might be a little too down on Williams' prospects.

The FW46 would've made fairly regular appearances in Q3 had it come in on weight, even before the post-summer upgrade. The FW47 will also be the first car completely under Pat Fry and Matt Harman, who were a pretty good team at Alpine(the 2022 and 2023 models were very solid points scoring cars).

The driver lineup is undoubtedly the best outside of Ferrari/Red Bull/McLaren IMO. They will need to take advantage of almost every other midfield team having one rookie.

The only thing that will cap improvement over 2024 will be lack of in-season development. If Vowles refuses to upgrade anything, then yes, they could be looking at last place.

In any case, I don't think they're in a worse spot than Sauber and Haas going forward at the very least. Williams has 300 more employees than both of those teams.

All excellent points and there is a chance that Sauber and Haas might drop the ball. However, I believe James Vowles has stated that 2026 is the main focus and that between now and then, the focus is to try and put all of the systems in place for longer term success. You are correct regarding the rookies in most of the teams ahead of Williams, that may cost them points, thus giving Williams a chance.

The Williams facilities are still behind a lot of other teams. If we look at Aston Martin, can Williams compete with that? Not for now.

Mercedes, McLaren, Redbull and Ferrari are the big 4.

Aston Martin might break into this top 4.

Alpine did very well to recover in 2024 and I suspect will start better in 2025.

Haas seems to have a handle on their operations plus Racing Bulls is the RB junior team and will benefit from that.

I’m convinced Sauber will be a lot better in 2025 as Binotto will ensure the team does the basics well.

I just can’t see how Williams can beat any of these teams in 2025, but there is real potential in 2026 and beyond.

Either way, I’m really curious how the team functions and performs in 2025 !!!

[Little Leaf]

I think this is far too pessimistic, Williams have now two top drivers and surely cannot be hampered by so much damage as this season (feel free to quote that end of 2025 if needed...)

 

2025 will come down to maximising the chances when they come, something I think Sainz is very good at. This will be a make or break season for Albon, let's see which it turns out to be. He needs to stop crashing for a start.

 

JV has stated 2026 is the main focus but 2025 should not be written off. All of the development will come from the same factory and if it doesn't work in 2025, why should it work a year later? Getting the weight off of the car is key.

 

Sauber, Haas, Alpine and RB are teams Williams should see as beatable. 

[JordanIreland]

Williams has improved - it's now only the 3rd most irrelevant F1 team in the sport, behind RB and Alpine.

I’m not 100% sure if irrelevant is the correct term. I would say Williams from 2004 has been totally lost. However the new owners and leadership are serious and putting in the best possible resources based on their existing capacity.

Alpine will definitely improve, flavio will make sure of this and it’s already showing.

Racing Bulld is a junior team to bring in younger drivers.

So all 3 bring value.

For me HAAS was a total joke under guenther steiner. He did very well to establish the team and he deserves a lot of credit for that achievement. But it’s obvious that he was unfortunately holding it back. With new leadership and Toyota partnership, it has real purpose. The team did very well this year.

Now Lance Stroll… there is a guy that should not be in F1. But we all know that haha

[cyclist]

In 2024 Williams was obviously hampered by having to ramp up the internal organisation to more modern ways, which resulted in the spare parts saga at the beginning of the season. This put them on the back foot in terms of development. Add to this an unfortunate amount of crashes that strained the budget and the morale of the team.

In 2023 they were right in the midfield which allowed some nice points finishes, but in 2024 they were just outdeveloped by everyone except Sauber and this make it a year without many highlights. If they can turn this around in 2025 will depend on their resources: they would not want to jeopardize success in the long run for some good results in 2025, but this will likely be the case for most midfield teams except AM. If they can get a car that is on par with the other midfield runners, I can see them do well with a driver like Sainz pushing the team. This dynamic could benefit Albon as well, who has not shown to be the driver to lead the team.

 

I do think they have the strongest driver combination in the midfield so I hope this will help them, even if I don't expect to see a McLaren like return to form just yet.

[messy]

I feel like 2024 was maybe the transition season Williams needed. I hope this is the case, anyway. They seemed to tread water a bit competitively but I’m sure I read that statistically they did still make progress relative to the teams around them, it just wasn’t as obvious. I’m of the opinion that having Sainz in the car will probably make a massive difference. His Ferrari stint was excellent but so was his McLaren one before it, and there as the senior driver in a team that was trying to move up the midfield, it’s probably more of a relevant indicator. I see him as the exact figure they need to turn a middling car into a regular scorer. I don’t think there’ll be too many fireworks but they’ll score much more often with Sainz in the car.

That’s not to say I don’t rate Albon, but I don’t think he’s the all-round class that Sainz is. Albon will probably do ok against Carlos, while still losing the head to head.

I’ve liked what Williams have done since their absolute nadir in 2019 but progress has been quite slow and steady, hasn’t it? I hope Sainz is a big difference maker.

[jonpollak]

Williams has improved - it's now only the 3rd most irrelevant F1 team in the sport, behind RB and Alpine.

History will show them in a far better light than these dismissive posts you’ve been sending us recently ….

Geez..
Jp

[noikeee]

I’ve liked what Williams have done since their absolute nadir in 2019 but progress has been quite slow and steady, hasn’t it? I hope Sainz is a big difference maker.

You'd take that over big performance swings. I think it's a sign that it's sustainable. I like what they're doing, the question is how ready are they for the 2026 reset.

[KPower]

I think this is far too pessimistic, Williams have now two top drivers and surely cannot be hampered by so much damage as this season (feel free to quote that end of 2025 if needed...)

 

2025 will come down to maximising the chances when they come, something I think Sainz is very good at. This will be a make or break season for Albon, let's see which it turns out to be. He needs to stop crashing for a start.

 

JV has stated 2026 is the main focus but 2025 should not be written off. All of the development will come from the same factory and if it doesn't work in 2025, why should it work a year later? Getting the weight off of the car is key.

 

Sauber, Haas, Alpine and RB are teams Williams should see as beatable. 

 

Agreed.

 

None of the 4 of Sauber/Haas/Alpine/RB should be seen as "superior" to Williams. They all have their pros and cons..

[messy]

You'd take that over big performance swings. I think it's a sign that it's sustainable. I like what they're doing, the question is how ready are they for the 2026 reset.

Absolutely, especially considering this is a team that's made a fair few drastic, unsustainable gains over the years (2014 especially) before regressing to the mean, as well as some absolute tankings like 2019. Steady and sustainable is good, if unexciting.

Edited by messy, Yesterday, 17:11.

[WilliamsF1Fan]

Williams announced back in June/July that they were bringing in around 26 new tech people over the remainder of 2024 so have been active improving the team, obviously some will have a more immediate impact than others in the short term but Vowles and Dorilton are clearly trying to make improvements.  Sainz on board in the second seat and I think (through a post Christmas haze) that the team renewed their deal with Mercedes during the year so there is quite a lot of cause for optimism, both with new signings and consistency with partners.  Do I think 2025 will be a year to remember?  Not likely, but hopefully we'll see improvements to give us optimism for 2026.

[JordanIreland]

In 2024 Williams was obviously hampered by having to ramp up the internal organisation to more modern ways, which resulted in the spare parts saga at the beginning of the season. This put them on the back foot in terms of development. Add to this an unfortunate amount of crashes that strained the budget and the morale of the team.
In 2023 they were right in the midfield which allowed some nice points finishes, but in 2024 they were just outdeveloped by everyone except Sauber and this make it a year without many highlights. If they can turn this around in 2025 will depend on their resources: they would not want to jeopardize success in the long run for some good results in 2025, but this will likely be the case for most midfield teams except AM. If they can get a car that is on par with the other midfield runners, I can see them do well with a driver like Sainz pushing the team. This dynamic could benefit Albon as well, who has not shown to be the driver to lead the team.

I do think they have the strongest driver combination in the midfield so I hope this will help them, even if I don't expect to see a McLaren like return to form just yet.

Very good summary.

One of the big shining lights is Sainz. I’m not a big fan of Albion, he did well in 2023 but had no real reference point in his teammate. When Franco joined he was put under pressure and again made mistakes. I’m expecting Sainz to destroy Albon which wouldn’t help. But I really hope they both do well.

[JordanIreland]

I feel like 2024 was maybe the transition season Williams needed. I hope this is the case, anyway. They seemed to tread water a bit competitively but I’m sure I read that statistically they did still make progress relative to the teams around them, it just wasn’t as obvious. I’m of the opinion that having Sainz in the car will probably make a massive difference. His Ferrari stint was excellent but so was his McLaren one before it, and there as the senior driver in a team that was trying to move up the midfield, it’s probably more of a relevant indicator. I see him as the exact figure they need to turn a middling car into a regular scorer. I don’t think there’ll be too many fireworks but they’ll score much more often with Sainz in the car.

That’s not to say I don’t rate Albon, but I don’t think he’s the all-round class that Sainz is. Albon will probably do ok against Carlos, while still losing the head to head.

I’ve liked what Williams have done since their absolute nadir in 2019 but progress has been quite slow and steady, hasn’t it? I hope Sainz is a big difference maker.

Yes 2018 and 2019 was painful and the team could have disappointed. The new owners have really steadied the ship and the team from both a financial and organisation perspective seem a lot more secure.

The drive to survive clips of Williams at this time were painful. The overall team was stuck in the 1990s and needed a major overhaul. Well done to the leadership team for making this a reality.

[JordanIreland]

Absolutely, especially considering this is a team that's made a fair few drastic, unsustainable gains over the years (2014 especially) before regressing to the mean, as well as some absolute tankings like 2019. Steady and sustainable is good, if unexciting.

Exactly… a sustainable, evidence based approach to racing seems to be developing well into the Williams philosophy.

Maybe the overweight 2024 car and the extreme number of crashes hid the teams real performance.

I am a bit surprised that not many people acknowledge that Albon had a high number of big crashes. He needs to correct that for 2025.

I’m really looking forward to 2025, but 2026 should be really exciting for Williams.

[Wes350]

Williams announced back in June/July that they were bringing in around 26 new tech people over the remainder of 2024 so have been active improving the team, obviously some will have a more immediate impact than others in the short term but Vowles and Dorilton are clearly trying to make improvements.  Sainz on board in the second seat and I think (through a post Christmas haze) that the team renewed their deal with Mercedes during the year so there is quite a lot of cause for optimism, both with new signings and consistency with partners.  Do I think 2025 will be a year to remember?  Not likely, but hopefully we'll see improvements to give us optimism for 2026.

 

This is the right way.

 

Even if you have the money you can't just hire 200 new employee's and expect to become a top team overnight.

 

You have to gradually integrate people and make sure everything is working as you go. This takes time.

 

And even when you have 'everything' in place, Ross Brawn has said it take up to 3 years after that to get consistent race wins.

 

If Williams shows improvement in 24: 5-6th constructors, then there is hope for the 2026 car.

 

Fighting Aston/Alonso should be the goal.

 

 

 

Exactly… a sustainable, evidence based approach to racing seems to be developing well into the Williams philosophy.

Maybe the overweight 2024 car and the extreme number of crashes hid the teams real performance.

I am a bit surprised that not many people acknowledge that Albon had a high number of big crashes. He needs to correct that for 2025.

I’m really looking forward to 2025, but 2026 should be really exciting for Williams.

 

Yeah, he seems to have gotten a pass. Not that Colapinto didn't put it into the wall a few times, but Albon was right there with him in Brazil. (And earlier in the year.)

 

Just shows how out of control Sergeant was to be sacked for it.

[cyclist]

Exactly… a sustainable, evidence based approach to racing seems to be developing well into the Williams philosophy.

Maybe the overweight 2024 car and the extreme number of crashes hid the teams real performance.

I am a bit surprised that not many people acknowledge that Albon had a high number of big crashes. He needs to correct that for 2025.

I’m really looking forward to 2025, but 2026 should be really exciting for Williams.

Albon is a strange case of a driver that is very hard to rate. At Red Bull he was disappointing next to Max in terms of speed but also race craft (anyone remember that "they race me so hard" quote...?).

 

He then had the chance to go to Williams after a year on the sidelines. You could say that there were hardly any expectations as Williams was firmly at the back of the grid. However the car did go well on some tracks (above expectations) so that flattered him, as well as being next to a rather useless team mate. This trend continued into 2023 with the car actually having pretty solid pace. 2024 has rather blurred this image of Albon the midfield leader again, and being confronted with a less competitive car did not bring out the best in him, even if this went under the radar as his team mates failed more spectacularly next to him.

 

Next year will be a make or break year for him: either he shows to be close or better than Sainz and he could make up jump up the grid. If however this situation is unsettling him and he is clearly beaten, I could see him out of F1 in 2026.

Edited by cyclist, Today, 00:22.

[messy]

Albon has credit in the bank, but for me he was pretty poor this year. Don’t agree with people putting him 11th/12th etc in rankings….not this year. He was still reasonably fast in comparison to both his team mates, 0.3 advantage or whatever it was is nothing to be sniffed at, but there were so many mistakes, big crashes. Reminded me slightly of when Paul Di Resta kinda lost the plot through the middle of 2013 which is probably an odd reference but I mean someone renowned as a very reliable midfield performer being anything but. But he was still quick. And 2022/2023, whether slightly flattered by his weak team-mates or not, were really good. I mean wasn’t he, on average, further ahead of Latifi in 2022 than Russell had been in 2021? Again, that’s impressive and a good indication that he actually has been performing and it’s not all been some sort of illusion because his team-mates are useless. But you know what, next year we’re going to find out.

Edited by messy, Today, 00:54.