23 replies to this topic

[Victor]

Can anyone here on the forum explain why Ken Tyrrell always had such a strong connection with France? Why did Matra choose him, and why did he choose Matra for a technical partnership? And why did Ken Tyrrell consistently turn to France to recruit promising drivers like Cèvert, Depailler, Jarier, Jabouille, and Pironi? I am curious about this.

[10kDA]

Elf?

[Doug Nye]

For his team's financial 'ealf.  The French Formula Junior and Formula 2 racing calendar had for ten years largely sustained Tyrrell - and he was very well known and widely respected by French officialdom for providing competitive entries, always fulfilling his entry commitments as agreed, and for his occasional spats with them.

 

DCN

[Roger Clark]

I imagine, also,that Matra and Elf were keen to have Jackie Stewart in one of thei cars when they moved up to Formula 2. 

[philippe7]

The collaboration between Ken Tyrrell and Matra started in 1966 - so a few years before Elf existed  - when he purchased two MS 5 Formula 2 chassis for Jackie Stewart and Jacky Ickx. And probably because he (and his drivers) felt it was the best chassis available. Another Britisher, John Coombs, had also bought an MS 5 chassis for Graham Hill, after "back to back" tests with a Brabham and a Cooper (so the story goes .....).

 

Then of course from 1968 onwards Elf came on board and supported Tyrrell until 1978 (I think) so although the Elf management always claimed in public that they never tried to twist Uncle Ken's arm to employ at least one French driver in its team and that it was never a contractual "requirement", the fact is that it was the case, even if the decision was possibly taken by (and not imposed to ) Ken Tyrrell in order to please his french sponsors ....

[Gary Davies]

For his team's financial 'ealf.  The French Formula Junior and Formula 2 racing calendar had for ten years largely sustained Tyrrell - and he was very well known and widely respected by French officialdom for providing competitive entries, always fulfilling his entry commitments as agreed, and for his occasional spats with them.

 

DCN

In contrast to ACBC then. 

[Doug Nye]

ACBC certainly had his moments with French officialdom...and the Italian police...and the Dutch police...etc etc etc... but at least one of his entries was usually well worth the start, appearance and travel money that organising clubs and promoters eagerly paid to secure it.  As for the occasional spat with HM Government, aah well...say no more...

 

DCN

[MCS]

The collaboration between Ken Tyrrell and Matra started in 1966 - so a few years before Elf existed  - when he purchased two MS 5 Formula 2 chassis for Jackie Stewart and Jacky Ickx. And probably because he (and his drivers) felt it was the best chassis available. Another Britisher, John Coombs, had also bought an MS 5 chassis for Graham Hill, after "back to back" tests with a Brabham and a Cooper (so the story goes .....).

 

Then of course from 1968 onwards Elf came on board and supported Tyrrell until 1978 (I think) so although the Elf management always claimed in public that they never tried to twist Uncle Ken's arm to employ at least one French driver in its team and that it was never a contractual "requirement", the fact is that it was the case, even if the decision was possibly taken by (and not imposed to ) Ken Tyrrell in order to please his french sponsors ....

Whilst this is a Ken Tyrrell / France (Elf) related thread, let's not forget the various Elf-backed drivers that John Coombs entered after Tyrrell left Formula Two:  Stewart, Brabham, Cevert, Depailler, Jabouille, Leclère, etc. - all with Elf backing.

[barrykm]

As a total aside to the thrust of this thread...I always found the visible riveting evident on the tubs of the Matras of this era to be both visually appealing as well as, to me, an indication of sturdiness and quality - whether  this latter aspect is actually valid I cannot say, but the aerospace connection must have contributed.

But I always liked the Matras 

Edited by barrykm, 12 January 2025 - 10:42.

[Victor]

I think that the first four responses above, offer a fair explanation. Thank you very much to all.

[Dipster]

Did Ken Tyrrell speak French? 

[Doug Nye]

From what I remember, un peu seulement, and he certainly preferred 'them' to speak English.  I do recall Jabby Crombac ribbing him mercilessly one day about his French pronunciation...

 

DCN

[mariner]

Matra , as befits a major aersopace company had very high construction standards so I expect the visible rivetting was just good practice to them ,and with low car speeds the flush riveting of aircraft was not worth it ( didn't stop Chapman on the 72 of course).

 

So , maybe, the very safety consciuos Stewart was happier with a Matra than a tube and  brazed Brabham, and I doubt he would have driven an F2 Lotus even if  if Ken got it free!

 

As an example of Mara's standards they didn't use bag tanks in F2/F1 cars IIRC but sealed the monocoque, as was done in many aircraft, It allows for more fuel as well as saving weight.  . Also if you examine the chassis of an MS 650 you can see it is treated with yellow zinc cromate primer which was a  standard aircaft specification but almost unknown in british alloy tubs. 

Edited by mariner, 13 January 2025 - 13:31.

[rl1856]

What led to ELF moving on from Tyrell ?  Was it their slow decline, desire to be more supportive of French based entities, something else ?   Thanks

[Doug Nye]

It was Matra's seal-coated fuel tankage preference while using multiple internal tank-space lateral bulkheads which caused problems for them once the FIA mandated bag tanks for F1 cars - dictating a total re-think of their monocoque chassis design.

 

DCN

[BRG]

What led to ELF moving on from Tyrell ?  Was it their slow decline, desire to be more supportive of French based entities, something else ?   Thanks

In 1977, Renault arrived in F1 sporting large Elf logos.  In 1978 they also appeared on the Ligiers as well (replacing Shell), whilst the Tyrrells no longer carried Elf logos after 1978.  We can draw our own conclusions from that, I think.

[FlyingSaucer]

What led to ELF moving on from Tyrell ?  Was it their slow decline, desire to be more supportive of French based entities, something else ?   Thanks

 

Although I'm not an expert on the subject, I can say that the separation between Elf and Tyrrell was due to a few factors - with the split happening at the end of 1978, when Candy was announced as the team's master sponsor for 1979.

 

Well, firstly you have to take into account the political scenario at the time: the government of French President Valéry Giscard was having some problems controlling the price of oil in France, due to the instability in the price of a barrel due to the problems in the Middle East.

 

Obviously, this affected French refineries, such as Elf, which had their budget for 'special projects', such as F1, reduced. 

 

In this case, sponsoring a foreign team was much more expensive than a French national team, even more so if one takes into account the brand's target audience, which was obviously in France.

 

This went hand in hand with the renaissance of the French F1 industry, with Ligier collecting good results and Renault progressing considerably in performance in the late 1970s, something that sparked the desire of Elf of sponsoring markes of its own country. Well, every sponsor aims to have their product linked to the best that their country has to offer - and the visibility of a national F1 project is a golden opportunity to achieve this goal.

 

It is worth remembering that since Renault's debut in 1977, the team was sponsored by Elf, while Ligier gained secondary sponsorship from the brand in 1978 (or 79?)

 

Edited by FlyingSaucer, 13 January 2025 - 15:09.

[ReWind]

Don't forget Vaillante!

[LittleChris]

At first glance I thought that was the Stanley Steamer !!

[AJCee]

Not meaning to split hairs at all @FlyingSaucer and quite happy to be wrong, (I haven’t checked) but was Tyrrell’s 1979 Candy sponsorship announced that early? I recall the cars appearing with only Goodyear, Champion etc and Tyrrell prominently on them for the first few races.

[Funland]

I think they got there candy sponsorship after the start of the season. If I remember correctly there was an article in the local paper about how they had no sponsorship at the start of the season and someone from candy which I believe was based locally read it and the rest is as they say is history. I maybe wrong it was a long time ago.

[Victor]

Tyrrell lost Elf as a sponsor after 1978 and had no major backer at all in 1979. The cars looked pathetically bare, featuring only the large Tyrrell logo. Candy joined as a sponsor in 1980. It wasn’t a case of Tyrrell replacing Elf with Candy; rather, Elf had dropped Tyrrell.

[funformula]

The loss of ELF and First National City sponsorship came as a bit of a shock for Tyrrell as they weren´t prepared for the task of searching sponsors... just because they never had to. They came from an era in the 60´s were sponsors weren´t common and from the moment they partnered with Matra they had sufficent backing from ELF.

At the beginning of 1979 they started negotiations with Candy and from the 6th race of the year the cars were entered as Candy Team Tyrrell.

Edited by funformula, 13 January 2025 - 20:52.

[FlyingSaucer]

Not meaning to split hairs at all @FlyingSaucer and quite happy to be wrong, (I haven’t checked) but was Tyrrell’s 1979 Candy sponsorship announced that early? I recall the cars appearing with only Goodyear, Champion etc and Tyrrell prominently on them for the first few races.

 

 

I think they got there candy sponsorship after the start of the season. If I remember correctly there was an article in the local paper about how they had no sponsorship at the start of the season and someone from candy which I believe was based locally read it and the rest is as they say is history.

 

 

 

At the beginning of 1979 they started negotiations with Candy and from the 6th race of the year the cars were entered as Candy Team Tyrrell.

 

You guys are all correct! My mistake.

 

The 80s are starting to get a little out of my comfort zone and I think I fumbled in this one kkkkkk!

 

It's a good thing that you guys noticed it.

Edited by FlyingSaucer, 14 January 2025 - 01:13.