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Race engineers 'pussyfooting' around their driver


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#1 JL14

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Posted 15 January 2025 - 22:17

I'd say Smedley - talking on the Red Flags podcast - is completely right in his observation/assessment about he current race engineers trying to 'please' and 'baby' - yes, all of you will start to mention Hockenheim 2010 and the "Felipe baby, stay cool" - their driver too much, like you see for example a lot at McLaren and Ferrari:

 

“In general, I think in Formula 1 now, there’s too much pussyfooting around.
Like, the way the radio messages go to the driver, I’m like, ****ing grow a pair, man. Just tell him what you need to tell him.”
 
“You give any narcissistic sociopath an inch and they’ll take a yard, right, so don’t give him that inch to start with. Don’t give him this fact that I’ve got some kind of inferiority complex here and I’m going to tell you something and maybe you’ll do it… No, mate, we’re at work, right? I’m going to tell you something, you do it.
When my boss tells me something, I do it. That’s the way the world works. And if we don’t do that, right, as long as we’re not working for narcissists and sociopaths and they’re telling us to do the wrong things, if we don’t do that in a high-pressure environment like this, the whole thing’s going to get spun off its axis.”

 

“There’s a lot of this stuff like: should I make a decision? Should I ask this driver to move over or that driver to move him? Will his feelings be hurt? Look, you’re only ever going to get one driver at the end of the race who’s happy, right? You can’t please all of the people all of the time. So just ****ing grow a pair and get on and make the decisions that you need to make.”
 
“Between Max and GP, they’ve definitely got that relationship right. GP tells him how it is and Max will fire back.
One thing I really like about GP – and again that’s very similar to how I always felt as well – is sometimes the drivers can get slightly sociopathic with their views on the team. These are guys who are staying up until midnight a lot of the nights working for you and getting things right. You’ve heard GP a couple of times, and I’ve definitely said it to my drivers, I think you need to go back in the garage and apologise to the guys because how you’ve been behaving is not very adult, or you haven’t been a very nice person, put in polite terms, so get in there and apologise. GP’s done that with Max, I certainly did it in my time.
During one especially tense race last year, Lambiase told Verstappen he would not be drawn into ‘childish’ exchanges over whether other drivers were complying with the rules. I think the way Gianpiero conducts himself on the radio is probably just a reflection of their real relationship. They’ve got this good relationship, you’ve got a relationship that works, they both rely on each other fully and they both trust each other fully. When you’ve got that, you can talk to each other how you want. You don’t have to have this like, ‘control,’ ‘check,’ ‘ten-four,’ all of this nonsense, right? We are checking, ****ing hurry up then because I’m driving a car at 200 miles an hour.”

Edited by JL14, 15 January 2025 - 22:20.


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#2 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 15 January 2025 - 22:40

well, there are lot of aspects related to this. First of all, teams have managers to handle the positive/constructive relationship. 

Yeah, some drivers are aggressive at times, but sometimes the race engineer is pretty useless or kind of dumb in talking. Countless efforts at Ferrari.

 

I like the parallel to your boss, there are some key differences:

- these guys are top athletes, in any sports the stars have more power than the supporting stuff. If you were paid 20M a year and your boss was paid 120k a year, it's clear who's the boss there...

- These guys are performing under adrenaline and mental stress. Their mental capacity used for driving the car, understanding what happens around them, talk etc...

- physical stress - they are under a lot of physical effort, talking itself is hard

 

Some do it better, some don't.  But you have to think what they actually do and in what conditions before coming across as you do. 



#3 MortenF1

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Posted 15 January 2025 - 22:49

Norris’ race engineer talks to him as if he’s afraid of him, but Norris is grumpy and unpleasant most of the time so maybe he’s just not looking forward to the reply…

#4 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 15 January 2025 - 23:36

In my opinion, drivers needlessly just complain all the time, so much that it has become a habit, a contagious one!

 

The amount of F*** word usage has become so high that the word has lost it's effectiveness, so much that even I would say, some drivers are just not worthy of using the F*** word anymore!


Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 15 January 2025 - 23:38.


#5 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 15 January 2025 - 23:45

Not so long ago, F*** word was highly prestigious but now some drivers use it to say Hello to their race engineers!  :D

 


Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 15 January 2025 - 23:49.


#6 KPower

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 03:49

I don't think Ferrari's race engineers "baby" their drivers. I think Adami in particular, was very level headed and straightforward with Vettel and Sainz, and should continue that with Hamilton.

 

McLaren on the other hand, especially during the Hungary debacle, was shameful. 



#7 JL14

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 07:02

well, there are lot of aspects related to this. First of all, teams have managers to handle the positive/constructive relationship. 

Yeah, some drivers are aggressive at times, but sometimes the race engineer is pretty useless or kind of dumb in talking. Countless efforts at Ferrari.

 

I like the parallel to your boss, there are some key differences:

- these guys are top athletes, in any sports the stars have more power than the supporting stuff. If you were paid 20M a year and your boss was paid 120k a year, it's clear who's the boss there...

- These guys are performing under adrenaline and mental stress. Their mental capacity used for driving the car, understanding what happens around them, talk etc...

- physical stress - they are under a lot of physical effort, talking itself is hard

 

Some do it better, some don't.  But you have to think what they actually do and in what conditions before coming across as you do. 

 

It's not about the driver's talking (back) to the engineers. It's about the engineers not being direct to the drivers when they need to do something; tell them to swap position, not terrifyingly ask them if they could maybe do it and when the driver pushes back on it make it a lengthly negotiation.

As Smedley says, it's okay and to be expected for the driver to be selfish, so his race engineer has to be strict with them.



#8 pacificquay

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 07:48

Smedley’s take to an extent is reflective of different times.

 

We don’t really know enough to comment with the certainty many on here do as we only ever hear selected snippets - and way more now than in the past.



#9 Disgrace

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 08:15

He's clearly referencing Will Joseph, Norris's race engineer. And I think he's right that there is a problem.

 

Silverstone was the worst example. They talked themselves out of using the medium tyres that they had saved precisely for the scenario they were in, after having dawdled for a lap too long already, and chucked away the win.

 

Joseph was also extremely fortunate that race control didn't call an immediate SC, as they should have, for Hulkenberg's stranded car during the Brazil sprint. McLaren had delayed the Norris/Piastri switch for no logical reason.

 

Unless McLaren are truly dominant in 2025, both driver and race engineer will need to improve if they want to win the title.



#10 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 08:28

I get what he’s saying. I do wonder if the working dynamic of some teams mean the race engineer doesn’t feel like they can rock the boat at all. Some drivers are such primadonnas that a falling out might mean the race engineers job could be on the line. But it shouldn’t be. It should be a straight talking, pull no punches working relationship. That’s why I admire GP so much. He’s not intimidated by Max, who I think could easily be an intimidating figure, especially with Jos lurking around. They get information across quickly and concisely, and make effective decisions, and if Max is upset so be it, they can work it out in the debrief.

#11 Disgrace

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 08:29

Norris’ race engineer talks to him as if he’s afraid of him, but Norris is grumpy and unpleasant most of the time so maybe he’s just not looking forward to the reply…

 

Joseph just seemed afraid to make the calls, period. He delegated the decision-making process to the driver so often throughout the year, leading to endless back-and-forth, much of which we heard. It was painfully obvious that he's never been in a title fight in his life.



#12 Sterzo

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 08:33

Fascinating quotes by Rob Smedley. I agree with his concept that the engineer is the boss, managing the driver. Where I'd differ slightly is that there is no single way to manage every person. It's important to understand the individual and what will work best with them. Some respond to directness, some need coaxing, others need reassuring. And of course one individual can be different at different times.



#13 tifosiMac

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 09:49

well, there are lot of aspects related to this. First of all, teams have managers to handle the positive/constructive relationship. 

Yeah, some drivers are aggressive at times, but sometimes the race engineer is pretty useless or kind of dumb in talking. Countless efforts at Ferrari.

 

I like the parallel to your boss, there are some key differences:

- these guys are top athletes, in any sports the stars have more power than the supporting stuff. If you were paid 20M a year and your boss was paid 120k a year, it's clear who's the boss there...

 

It doesn't matter what the salary is, they are a team and sometimes engineers need to put the driver in their place. Verstappen is perhaps the worst we hear for screaming at his engineer and I remember his engineer firmly telling him it was childish to be fighting on the radio at Hungary last season. That was refreshing to see as most drivers can be very immature in the heat of the moment.



#14 absinthedude

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 09:56

Every driver is different and will respond to different styles of communication. I have no doubts a race engineer will get the best out of some by being quite blunt....while you get the best out of others by being more supportive.

 

That said, sometimes an order needs to be delivered...."The team needs you to let Mr X pass" or "I need you to pit now". Perhaps followed by "We can discuss it later in debrief". It's a high pressure environment for everyone but the driver may well not be aware of in depth discussions that the other side of the pit wall has had regarding data, the shape the race is taking etc. Sometimes they need to listen. 



#15 pdac

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 11:34

Every driver is different and will respond to different styles of communication. I have no doubts a race engineer will get the best out of some by being quite blunt....while you get the best out of others by being more supportive.

 

That said, sometimes an order needs to be delivered...."The team needs you to let Mr X pass" or "I need you to pit now". Perhaps followed by "We can discuss it later in debrief". It's a high pressure environment for everyone but the driver may well not be aware of in depth discussions that the other side of the pit wall has had regarding data, the shape the race is taking etc. Sometimes they need to listen. 

 

This is exactly why I feel there should be no radio communication between team and driver whilst the car is on track. The driver is supposed to be the one driving the car, not the team. If there is an issue with the car and it needs to be retired or return to the pits for some reason then, fine, allow the team to inform the driver. Otherwise leave the driver to decide what to do or hang a board out to tell them to pit on the next lap.



#16 Nathan

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 11:45

Find someone at work currently in a stressed, high pressure moment that requires high concentration where they can't stop to take a moment, and give them your straight up criticism.

#17 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 11:50

Drivers have always had arguments with engineers. What we have now though are immature kids who have been babied and revered by a team around them since their karting years...people who have massive egos and feel like superstars before they even get to F1. The amount of team radio we hear (and the way Liberty push these '10 crazy team radio moments from the weekend!' type of Youtube videos exacerbates the effect, too. 



#18 midgrid

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 12:03

Something that has interested me is that the race engineers in F2 and F3 are routinely far more brutal than their F1 counterparts, despite most of the drivers effectively being paying customers.



#19 Fatgadget

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 12:12

....Pussyfooting?...Nah mate. I reckon  the descriptive...  massaging a drivers  ego! :D



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#20 jonpollak

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 12:56

I enjoyed reading that JL14
Thanks for posting it.
I’m off to RedFlags podcast now !!

Jp

#21 noikeee

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 13:00

Radio is broadcasted now and overanalysed by all the internet. I wonder if there's an element of "I need to be careful with what I say because everyone is listening, and being direct towards my driver will cause a PR shitstorm"

#22 1player

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 13:03

Norris’ race engineer talks to him as if he’s afraid of him, but Norris is grumpy and unpleasant most of the time so maybe he’s just not looking forward to the reply…

I've rolled my eyes out of their orbits after reading your comment. Thanks.



#23 7MGTEsup

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 13:34

Drivers have always had arguments with engineers. What we have now though are immature kids who have been babied and revered by a team around them since their karting years...people who have massive egos and feel like superstars before they even get to F1. The amount of team radio we hear (and the way Liberty push these '10 crazy team radio moments from the weekend!' type of Youtube videos exacerbates the effect, too. 

 

It is quite noticeable when you go back and watch a season review from the 80's or 90's where most drivers were in their late 20's and early 30's. There is a gulf in maturity between 18 and 25, but they all still probably had big ego's and radio transmissions were few and far between back then. I would imagine there were a few tirades of swear words shouted into their balaclava at the time that no one else ever heard.



#24 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 13:44

I wonder who the last driver to race in F1 without a radio was (failures not included)? Or indeed the first to race with one?

#25 jee

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 14:23

For the engineers who talk to the drivers it is really important to keep the driver in focus and not to distract them. Be sure that all of them work with psychologists nowadays to improve communication with their specifc driver and how that influences their performance. It is not trying not to be direct or pussyfooting them, it is to help them perform.



#26 pup

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 14:53

Joseph is easily the most cringe part of being a McLaren fan.  Not only is he wishy washy in telling Norris what to do, he's wishy washy in just providing basic information. He never provides info directly, but says things obliquely and then drowns it in a sea of irrelevance.  I pray for the day that Norris gets a new engineer.  

 

Ferrari the same.  



#27 mclarensmps

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 14:59

While, on the whole, I agree with Smedley's take on this, I think the tone is coming from a place of envy. Also this line:

"When my boss tells me to do something at work, I do it". You're not their boss, mate. 

But yes, this is something that has developed in a lot of sports for this generation of youth. This is why in football (soccer), managers who have adapted to coddle their players tend to do fairly better than those who lead by an iron fist. 



#28 7MGTEsup

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 15:14

"When my boss tells me to do something at work, I do it". You're not their boss, mate. 

 

I think that is taken a bit out of context. My interpritation is when he's given a team order that came from the top and delivered by the engineer you just do it without bickering. I don't think he was reffering to the engineer being the drivers boss.



#29 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 16:13

Worth noting Smedley saying ‘Felipe baby, stay cool’ to pacify his driver…  :p



#30 AlexPrime

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 17:29

Every driver is different and will respond to different styles of communication. 

Not just drivers.



#31 JL14

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 21:46

Worth noting Smedley saying ‘Felipe baby, stay cool’ to pacify his driver…  :p

 

But he did still tell him to say cool, and not nicely ask.



#32 r4mses

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 21:53

If team radio wasn't available via TV, I'm pretty sure there would be more "fvck off and drive!" rather then "stay focused. keep your head down"



#33 garoidb

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 21:55

It sometimes seems that some of the more brutal conversations where an engineer is giving unwelcome news are because difficult issues have not been discussed properly beforehand. It's almost as if the very possibility that a track position or strategy option may have to be yielded had never remotely occurred to the offended driver before.



#34 Zippel

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Posted 16 January 2025 - 21:59

Something that has interested me is that the race engineers in F2 and F3 are routinely far more brutal than their F1 counterparts, despite most of the drivers effectively being paying customers.

 

It's power dynamic. If there is a clash between driver and engineer and one has to go:

 

- In F1 its going to be the engineer unless the driver is already on the outer due to a lack of performance.

 

- In the junior categories there's plenty of drivers willing and able to take over (and will bend over backwards to **** eat) and good engineers are harder to find.


Edited by Zippel, 16 January 2025 - 22:00.


#35 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 08:44

Worth noting Smedley saying ‘Felipe baby, stay cool’ to pacify his driver… :p


Worth remembering that this was during a race stoppage. Felipe was panicking than he didn’t have his non-tinted visor, and Rob was telling him not to worry about it, it was on its way.

It’s kind of the opposite of pussyfooting.

#36 absinthedude

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 09:59

Part of the issue here, as we discussed on another thread, is that all the pit to car communication has only quite recently been available to us. In the past, either radios didn't exist, we had no access to them, or we had limited access. 

 

Do we have the right to listen in on all the talk between team and driver? 



#37 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 10:21

Worth remembering that this was during a race stoppage. Felipe was panicking than he didn’t have his non-tinted visor, and Rob was telling him not to worry about it, it was on its way.

It’s kind of the opposite of pussyfooting.

 

I know, it was in jest.



#38 Analog

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 10:47

I think that a big part of the unbalanced relationship is that every driver knows he is the best in the world. I don't when that started but take for instance Perez, or Sargeant or Bottas - the only reason they are not World Champions is... well, they will have a long list of excuses. Nowadays they all have personal trainers, personal shrinks and an entourage that keeps telling them "next race, next year". 

So, when they are in their car, they expect to be treated like royals.


Edited by Analog, 17 January 2025 - 10:50.


#39 noikeee

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 14:26

Joseph is easily the most cringe part of being a McLaren fan.  Not only is he wishy washy in telling Norris what to do, he's wishy washy in just providing basic information. He never provides info directly, but says things obliquely and then drowns it in a sea of irrelevance.  I pray for the day that Norris gets a new engineer.  

 

Ferrari the same.  

 

The radio part is an important part of being a race engineer but emphasis on the word "part", you don't know the rest of his job, that's just what's visible to us. I don't like jumping to conclusions that staff member x or y or z should be sacked because we never have full context, or at least far less context than we get when looking at the drivers, whose jobs are largely measured by laptimes. Maybe that guy is a genius off the scenes and just bad at the communication part, admitedly important.

 

 

What I'm trying to say is this outlook of "the team tells the driver what to do and he should shut the **** up" is a fantasy in reality, because the power dynamics are just not like that, at least for half the grid, with maybe the exception of a handful of young junior drivers.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 17 January 2025 - 22:39.
Off topic reply removed.


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#40 Alfisti

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 14:37

What I'm trying to say is this outlook of "the team tells the driver what to do and he should shut the **** up" is a fantasy in reality, because the power dynamics are just not like that, at least for half the grid, with maybe the exception of a handful of young junior drivers.

 

Other than Verstappen and maybe Lewis, which driver really has power? The grid has never been stronger, they are all replaceable other than Max. There's been way too much driver push back on things only the team can see and also too many situations that have gone pear shaped because of indecision due to a lack of understand of who exactly should be calling the shots. That doesn't mean you don't ask the driver how the tyre feels or if the car needs more front end or if he can push harder/this is the limit etc, but this whole 3 laps of talking to decide 1 or 2 stop is weak.



#41 noikeee

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 14:55

Other than Verstappen and maybe Lewis, which driver really has power?

Almost everyone. First they all have legions of millions of fans across the globe that turn things into a PR disaster if you're perceived to boss the drivers too much or go against their wishes; second there's the drivers who have the teams by the balls financially, ie Stroll obviously, probably Lando at some stage in the past with his huge personal wealth, soon Colapinto with his recently found sponsorship, Sainz has always carried sponsors with him, Tsunoda is probably bankrolled by Honda, Zhou and Perez were very obvious cases recently, etc. This is not a sport for the poor or even the conventionally moderately upper class.

My point isn't that they can't get sacked because they obviously can, just that they're not in a relationship with the team of normal mere employees. And the guy that can sack them isn't the race engineer. The power dynamic just really really isn't "race engineer is the driver's boss".

Edited by noikeee, 17 January 2025 - 14:57.


#42 Heyli

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 20:01

I am not going to judge anyone's working relationship based on the few snippits I see on TV. I dont like generalizations. What works for one person (Max-GP) might not work well for others, who knows.

 

But I did laugh at this bit, I would have loved to see Leclerc come up with that response when they used to tell him that!

We are checking, ****ing hurry up then because I’m driving a car at 200 miles an hour.”



#43 chr1s

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 21:36

Part of the issue here, as we discussed on another thread, is that all the pit to car communication has only quite recently been available to us. In the past, either radios didn't exist, we had no access to them, or we had limited access. 

 

 

No but on one memorable occasion we could all read Patrick Heads' lips as he shouted "For F***S sake Nigel stop moaning!"



#44 Zippel

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 22:26

No but on one memorable occasion we could all read Patrick Heads' lips as he shouted "For F***S sake Nigel stop moaning!"

 

There used to be clips on YouTube of Mansell's radio moaning when he was racing in the BTCC and he could certainly compete with the best of modern drivers, though less swearing.



#45 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 22:40

For the avoidance of doubt, no, discussion of generational parenting does NOT belong in this thread. Take it to the Paddock Club. Posts removed.



#46 chdphd

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 22:50

I wonder who the last driver to race in F1 without a radio was (failures not included)? Or indeed the first to race with one?

 

This thread on TNF may be of interest:

 

https://forums.autos...communications/



#47 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 22:55

This thread on TNF may be of interest:

 

https://forums.autos...communications/

Of interest? Yes. Answering my question? No.



#48 Ultravox

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 23:01

Smedley hit the nail on the head. I have noticed this culture also and its infuriating. They sound like they are literally scared to be firm with their driver and order them to do anything when its their actual job. Its literally all of them and its pathetic. I remember years ago at Ferrari when they wanted Kimi to let his team mate pass, and the engineer was trying to pussy foot around in telling him (it wasn't clear how if it was a suggestion or order), then Kimi just got frustrated and told him to spit it out and give him a clear order. This is related to the modern culture of softness, and the drivers being spoiled temperamental prima donnas. The way they snap at their engineers sounds like a spoiled brat talking to their parents, its disgraceful and shows the dynamic is completely backwards. Great to hear Smedley call it out. They need to stop coddling the drivers, and if they snap back they need to check him and put them in their prace and the team should support it.


Edited by Ultravox, 17 January 2025 - 23:02.


#49 TomNokoe

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Posted 17 January 2025 - 23:39

I think it's generational, but I'll refrain from commenting further :stoned:

I also agree there's something to be said for the lack of privacy. I said as much in a recent thread.

I agree with Smedley that GP and Max are the ultimate duo. Bono and Lewis were often touted as the best combo, but I don't see (hear?) it.

Funnily enough, on Lewis, now that we've got a fully-formed "new generation" of drivers, it's clear to see that he is a bridge between old and new, in terms of traits and behaviours. I suppose his longevity helps, now that I think about it.

#50 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
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Posted 17 January 2025 - 23:51

While I agree with the symptoms (ineffective communication, not clearly spelled), I disagree with the root cause

I don't think pampering the drivers is the problem despite what some of you think (even trace it to a generational thing). 

 

Some race engineers are JUST incompetent. "We are checking" is not because Ferrari doesn't want to upset Leclerc, it is because they are lost.

Mclaren @ Silverstone was not them trying not to upset Norris, it was them making a mess out of having the right tyre by talking Norris into using the wrong tyre.

 

yes, there are examples when the drivers are overly sensitive, but here you have the bias of more and more radio. Maybe Senna would have b!tched too on the radio broadcast if that was a thing. We keep our heroes there and like to think not.

 

As in any relationship, 2 employees need to be effective. The Race Engineer needs to call out the driver and vice versa. They also need to be understanding of each other and work as a team. Some work well, others are painful to watch. 

 

There was a comment there that salary does not matter. Salary is a measure of power and who is easier to replace. In the real world power decides everything. It's the team boss's job to make sure the powerful part plays as a team mate