39 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Last week I fulfilled an intention dating back 35-40 years - and with some friends at last visited the De Havilland Museum - née Mosquito Museum - at Salisbury Hall, London Colney, just inside the M25 motorway ring around London.  Hardly racing car related, of course but I know many here share my interest in ageing airybuzzers...  I thought the place was just great, and its enthusiast staff exceptionally welcoming, friendly and knowledgeable.  Very highly recommended.  

 

We spent so much time on the three Mosquitos there - including the original prototype, back on the rural site at which it was originally completed and flown from a field adjoining the Hall - plus Hornet, Moth target drone, DH88 Comet - and the De Havilland Cierva C24 autogyro - that we just didn't get into the four-jet Comets, the Vampire, Sea Vixen, Dove, Heron etc etc largely parked outside.  So we're going back to complete the tour.  Here's a taste of what's so lovingly preserved there...

 

1 - First prototype in part-yellow hi-vis 'new type on test' livery

 

 

2 - Difficult to provide a full view in tight-packed hangar...

 

 

3 - Replica of the DH88 Comet MacRobertson England-Australia air race entry...

 

 

3B - Jam packery, but in really well appointed accommodation...

 

 

4 - The frankly weird DH-Cierva C24 autogyro with its DH Puss Moth fuselage cockpit section

 

 

5 - Excellent guide ex-RAF Hercules aircrew Rick with Sir Geoffrey de Havilland's Hornet Moth

 

 

6 - Mosquito crewmen came in all sizes...

 

 

7 - The Mosquito-dropped Barnes Wallis 'bouncing bomb' anti-ship weapon - 'Highball' - as tested for potential assault upon Tirpitz and similar targets, essentially in a Norwegian fjord.  This original test weapon was salvaged from Loch Striven - the dent suggests it hit something hard, hopefully its intended de-commissioned cruiser target

 

 

The unexplored outdoor display - sadly weathering DH Dove, Heron, etc...plenty more to see.

 

 

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 22 January 2025 - 11:50.

[Allan Lupton]

Glad you found it interesting Doug!

As a former de Havilland  apprentice whose entire working life was at Hatfield, I might well have been involved, but it was (and is) a little too far from home.

[DogEarred]

Didn't even realize this place existed!

 

On me way...

[LittleChris]

RAF Museum at Hendon is only a few miles away and also well worth a visit

[Roy C]

The previous occupier of Salisbury Hall was Sir Nigel Gresley (Chief Mechanical Engineer of the Great Northern Railway and the London & North Eastern Railway), where he took great interest in the wild Mallards living in the moat. An earlier occupier had been "Jennie" Churchill, Winston's Mother.

[GreenMachine]

Thanks Doug, now on my list for when/if I next visit. 

[Pullman99]

Thank you Doug!

 

It is, as you say, a great museum and greatly expanded over that past decade or so.  I used to know it as "The Mosquito Museum" when I was at Hatfield Polytechnic and some chums who worked for Hawker Siddeley used to help out as volunteers and I joined them occasionally to assist with work on the aircraft.  I was there when they had an official opening in 1971 that was attended by Sir Leonard Cheshire and Wing Commander John Cunningham.  I was standing next to them when the Mosquito TIII that was owned by Hawker Siddeley made several passes at tree top height!  Happy days, although that particular aircraft was lost in an accident in the mid-1990s.   Local people in Hatfield always referred to the factory as "de Havilland" of course.    Much in the same way that if you asked for directions to Longbridge in Birmingham the response was "oh, you mean The Austin!

 

Must visit again soon...

[ensign14]

The previous occupier of Salisbury Hall was Sir Nigel Gresley (Chief Mechanical Engineer of the Great Northern Railway and the London & North Eastern Railway), where he took great interest in the wild Mallards living in the moat. An earlier occupier had been "Jennie" Churchill, Winston's Mother.

Thought it was Peter Gabriel.

[MCS]

Excellent thread!  (Well done, Doug).

 

I've never been, but will now.  Almost inevitably I now have a very vague memory of it being mentioned a long while ago for some reason. The mind probably playing tricks I guess.

 

Irrespective - slight change of direction and regarding post number 4  - I visited the RAF Museum twelve months ago and was surprised at how many of the "interactive" displays weren't working (basic information, history, design, etc.) and the number of areas closed for refurbishment. The car park costs weren't great either - something like £8-50 rings a bell.

[Doug Nye]

Paying the price of prominence...and a London address?  I do still think that what the RAF Museum can show us at Hendon remains stupendous...  Just the muddy and narrow farm track entrance to Salisbury Hall emphasises how discreet and private it must have seemed to wartime engineers seeking somewhere not too far from their factory and design offices yet providing a greater degree of project security from potential sabotage and/or bombing.  I absolutely loved visiting it - a special place with special people.

 

DCN

[LittleChris]

Excellent thread!  (Well done, Doug).

 

I've never been, but will now.  Almost inevitably I now have a very vague memory of it being mentioned a long while ago for some reason. The mind probably playing tricks I guess.

 

Irrespective - slight change of direction and regarding post number 4  - I visited the RAF Museum twelve months ago and was surprised at how many of the "interactive" displays weren't working (basic information, history, design, etc.) and the number of areas closed for refurbishment. The car park costs weren't great either - something like £8-50 rings a bell.

 

0 - 3 hrs £7.50 and 3-6 hrs £10 per vehicle. Used to be cheaper pre-booking online but that facility seems to have disappeared.

 

However the museum itself remains free 

[Doug Nye]

And another thing...  It was very close to London Colney and Salisbury Hall that the wartime German spy Karel Richter - actually a Czech - one of the most inept 'secret' agents ever, it seems - landed by parachute, in May 1941.  Apparently frozen into inaction he hid for two days after burying not just his parachute and radio, but also inadvertently his rations pack.  Eventually wandering out of hiding he was seen by a couple of truckies who stopped to ask directions.  Startled by his thick accent and apparent ignorance of the locality they reported him to the first police officer they saw.  He found Richter, who offered some story about needing hospital help since he was feeling unwell.  The police constable called help and Richter was arrested, interrogated - at which he proved a tough nut to crack - tried and died on the gallows (after a desperate fight) at Wandsworth Prison that December.  Tough measures - but those were tough times.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 22 January 2025 - 14:35.

[AJCee]

Thank you for posting the pictures Doug, it is a gem of a museum. Like the best of smaller museums it has an air of welcome and enthusiasm.
The Shuttleworth Collection has a similar air for me.

[Odseybod]

To add a (slightly strained) motor sport connection - Tirpitz, the potential Highball target, was first photographed in its Norwegian fjord by former Frazer Nash driver A.F.P. Fane in a PRU Spitfire.

 

Also, for those who think composite construction is a fairly new idea,might mention the Mosquito's monocoque structure is made up of balsa wood sandwiched between sheets of plywood. Failure of the glue holding this together when the aircraft started operating in tropical conditions caused some unhappiness, until a new glue recipe was developed.

[Vitesse2]

To add a (slightly strained) motor sport connection - Tirpitz, the potential Highball target, was first photographed in its Norwegian fjord by former Frazer Nash driver A.F.P. Fane in a PRU Spitfire.

I've seen a rather grainy scan of the picture, although it was reputedly photographed from such a low level that crew members could be seen on deck. Although the other suggestion that they could be individually recognised is probably apocryphal ...

[sabrejet]

My first visit, back in 1977. It hasn't changed much, thankfully.

 

 

[Doug Nye]

I've seen a rather grainy scan of the picture, although it was reputedly photographed from such a low level that crew members could be seen on deck. Although the other suggestion that they could be individually recognised is probably apocryphal ...

 

Here's the ultra low-level reconnaissance photograph secured by former Frazer Nash works driver (and shareholder) Alfred Fane - family surname actually Agabeg - from his PRU Spitfire in January 1942. Writing about it Fane described his astonishment at spotting the near 43,000-ton battleship hiding in its Norwegian fjord "Cor! Kick my truss off!".

 

So sad that six months later he should crash fatally into a railway embankment at Great Shelford, near Duxford.  He'd been foiled by worsening weather on a mission to photograph U-boat yards at Flensburg, turned back and landed at RAF Coltishall, hoping the clag would clear enough for him to press on home to RAF Benson. He set off a couple of hours later, but the weather closed in again and he diverted to Duxford - crashing just short. The subsequent inquiry apparently did not mention that an airman's lost forage cap had reputedly been found within the wreck's fuselage. Fane's friends believed that it had jammed in the elevator control cable pulleys, locking them solid...

 

Whichever way one slices it - his Tirpitz pic is a stupendous image...

 

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 22 January 2025 - 21:14.

[GreenMachine]

On Highball, and Wallis' bouncing bombs generally, design of the casing (outer skin) was something of a trial, as a high speed impact with the water caused the casings to fail, and either the structure broke up, or the 'bomb' otherwise misbehaved.  Bear in mind that the devices were rotating about a horizontal axis, the spin intended to roll them down the vertical face of a dam, or a ship's hull, where a hydrostatic pistol would detonate it at the appropriate depth - the cases not only had to withstand a very high speed impact with the surface of the water, they had to withstand a later, but slower, impact with a wall/steel hull.   I suspect that one was damaged by the initial contact with the water, rather than subsequent contact with some other object.  

 

Am I correct in thinking that these weapons were only ever used the once, in the dams raid?

 

On a lighter note, what do you get when you cross a heron with a dove?

 

(Caloundra 2022)

[Doug Nye]

Ah - the dams raid bouncing bomb was cylindrical, not near spherical, and larger. Known by the codename 'Upkeep' they weighed-in around 9,000lbs, I believe. 'Highball' was smaller - around 950lbs. 

 

Re the DH Dove - we used to fly a borrowed DH Dove as Brooks auction company exec transport.  It was NOISY, yet lovely - and its cabin windows (huge by modern pressurised aircraft standards) provided a tremendous panoramic view of the world from 8-10,000 feet.  It had a tiny cramped cockpit with - by modern standards - just about the most un-ergonomic control and switch layout imaginable.

 

We used it once from Booker to the little aerodrome at Spa, Belgium, for an early historic meeting there.  When we taxied up to park close to the control tower, the controller said "Welcome Dove - I was here when Mr Wanderwell and his bootiful Wanwall team Dove came here..." (1958 Belgian GP).  

 

How much nostalgia can one bear?

 

DCN

 

PS - Took me ages to make memory work but pic of hybrid shows a DHA (Oz) Drover?

Edited by Doug Nye, 22 January 2025 - 22:17.

[FLB]

About Spitfires...

 

Edited by FLB, 22 January 2025 - 21:51.

[AJCee]

Ah FLB that one never gets old 😀. So sad to think that neither participant is with us anymore, but I thank them both for the enjoyment they gave.

[GreenMachine]

Ah - the dams raid bouncing bomb was cylindrical, not near spherical, and larger. Known by the codename 'Upkeep' they weighed-in around 9,000lbs, I believe. 'Highball' was smaller - around 950lbs. 

 

 

...

 

 

PS - Took me ages to make memory work but pic of hybrid shows a DHA (Oz) Drover?

 

Yes, Drover, that one in Flying Doctor livery.  I thought I had a photo of a more complete example, but can't put my finger on it immediately.  As a boy I loved the look of the Dove, with that bulged cockpit, and add the 'aaah, de Havilland' factor.   There is a Heron keeping the Drover company there, looking much more complete   

 

Yes, you are correct about the big one, but at the time the waters were muddied for secrecy reasons, with references to ball or sphere, and IIRC the film mock-up showed a vaguely ball-shaped in the Lancaster's bomb-bay.

[dolomite]

The Upkeep bomb as originally designed had a spherical wooden casing around the cylindrical bomb. However during the trials the wooden casing kept breaking up on impact with the water, and it was eventually found that the bomb worked better with the casing entirely removed.

[GTMRacer]

As a fellow Mosquito fan, I can highly recommend this book, its more than an account of the planes difficult birth but also the stories it produced during WW2

 

https://www.peoplesm...-rowland-white/

 

Considering I work in Hatfield and live in Cheshunt (i like the Lotus connection too...), I really need to get my act thogether and visit the Museum!

 

And another thing...  It was very close to London Colney and Salisbury Hall that the wartime German spy Karel Richter - actually a Czech - one of the most inept 'secret' agents ever, it seems - landed by parachute, in May 1941.  Apparently frozen into inaction he hid for two days after burying not just his parachute and radio, but also inadvertently his rations pack.  Eventually wandering out of hiding he was seen by a couple of truckies who stopped to ask directions.  Startled by his thick accent and apparent ignorance of the locality they reported him to the first police officer they saw.  He found Richter, who offered some story about needing hospital help since he was feeling unwell.  The police constable called help and Richter was arrested, interrogated - at which he proved a tough nut to crack - tried and died on the gallows (after a desperate fight) at Wandsworth Prison that December.  Tough measures - but those were tough times.

 

DCN

[blackmme]

I guess given the subject, the mention of the Mosquito and the ‘Theme’s’ more normally associated with the original poster I feel obligated to mention the Mosquitoes vital contribution to the concept behind the Lotus 78…

 

I’ll get me coat…..

 

Actually one other thing, if you do head down to the RAF Museum they have a Molins Gun on display, this was the 6lb (57mm) Anti-Tank gun adapted for fitting in the MXVIII Mosquito (nicknamed the Tsetse Fly’) for the anti-shipping strike role.

When you consider the svelte shape of the prototype and then what was shoe-horned into it just 3 years later it is bloody remarkable!

Note: For some odd reason the gun is displayed in the museum next to a Beaufighter which it was never fitted to instead of the Mosquito which is about 200ft away in the hangar….
 

Regards Mike

Edited by blackmme, 23 January 2025 - 10:16.

[Doug Nye]

  We didn't see a Beaufighter there - the only Bristols in the De Havilland Museum were...errrmmm...ah...  

 

DCN

[blackmme]

  We didn't see a Beaufighter there - the only Bristols in the De Havilland Museum were...errrmmm...ah...  

 

DCN

The Molins gun (with lack of Mosquito display context) and the Beau are just down the road at the RAF Museum Doug.

 

Regards Mike

[Doug Nye]

Aaaaaaaaaa...of course.  

 

There is a 'Tsetse' Mosquito 6pdr (57mm) cannon with the Molins auto loading gear on it displayed at the DH Museum.  It is a really substantial looking fowling piece to mount in a wooden flying machine...  Molins were and still are manufacturers of specialist cigarette-making machines.  Apologies for badly-framed photo.

 

 

Regarding Hendon, I once took Jack Brabham there for his first sight of a Beaufighter since he worked on them during his RAAF service.  The Museum director showed him round and was somewhat taken aback when - the moment Jack first set eyes on the Beau - he said of its undercarriage "Aah you got those oleo legs over-pressured. They're set too high - we'd never set 'em up like that...".  

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 23 January 2025 - 13:27.

[Allan Lupton]

As a fellow Mosquito fan, I can highly recommend this book, its more than an account of the planes difficult birth but also the stories it produced during WW2

 

https://www.peoplesm...-rowland-white/

 

Considering I work in Hatfield and live in Cheshunt (i like the Lotus connection too...), I really need to get my act thogether and visit the Museum!

 

In 1991 we of the Hatfield branch of the RAeS had a symposium celebrating 50 years sice its first flight and the lectures were printed in a book  "The Mosquito 50 Years On"

We had speakers who were as closely involved in the original design as we could find, so the book is more than just a set of articles, Long out of print but still some s/h copies on offer in the usual places.

 

[mariner]

It isa fabolous pace , be aware it is not heated so in winter come wel wrapped up!

 

A few years ago I went on a group visit which included the archives and workshop , not sure if it's open now.

 

Many of the high load points like flap  hinges were spread into the thin fuselage shell by multi laminate plywood blocks ,an object lesson on how to distribute point forces. The workmanship was superb.

 

As many may know the north east London furnitre insustry proved the skiled workforce to get the build going and they worked ot factions of an inch.

[Doug Nye]

It was, indeed, PERISHING cold there on the day of our visit - apart from the entry foyer and cafe.  But the quality of exhibits and display material is of a very high order indeed.  As I said in the intro above, a visit is highly recommended.  

 

DCN

[fyrth]

What a lovely thread - thank you all! I even delved into the history of the 57mm Molins gun, a story in itself  with military, marine and ariel use. I someetimes think I get more pleasure from aircraft than racing cars!

[Doug Nye]

Please don't spark me off on warships...I should concentrate more on the day job...  

 

DCN

[Tom Glowacki]

Happy to point out that the plywood used to build the Mosquito was made from wood harvested here in Wisconsin.

[kayemod]

Many of the high load points like flap  hinges were spread into the thin fuselage shell by multi laminate plywood blocks ,an object lesson on how to distribute point forces. The workmanship was superb.

 

As many may know the north east London furniture industry proved the skilled workforce to get the build going and they worked in factions of an inch.

 

One of my colleagues at Lotus was Colin Young, employed then as a draughtsman, and he'd served an apprenticeship at Vanden Plas at their place in north London, mainly learning woodworking and design skills. That would have been in the early 1960s, and he told me that at VP there was a large storage area in space above the main workshop. He had occasion to climb up there one day, and discovered that there was at least a ton of cut Balsawood planks, a ton of balsa is a huge amount, though possibly he was exaggerating slightly. An older worker told him that it was all left over from the 1940s when the factory was involved in turning out Mosquito components, mainly fuselages during WW2. As far as he knew it was all still there when he left VP to take up a job offer from Lotus after they moved to Hethel. If the building is still standing, it could all still be there today.

[elansprint72]

It's a few years since I "happened to be working nearby"(!) and it would have been rude not to all in. Twice. 

 

I would post some photos but can't be arsed messing about with the antique software of this forum. 

[Doug Nye]

I hope that it's a cheering thing, then, that several here can "be arsed" to do so...    

 

DCN

[RTH]

Last week I fulfilled an intention dating back 35-40 years - and with some friends at last visited the De Havilland Museum - née Mosquito Museum - at Salisbury Hall, London Colney, just inside the M25 motorway ring around London.  Hardly racing car related, of course but I know many here share my interest in ageing airybuzzers...  I thought the place was just great, and its enthusiast staff exceptionally welcoming, friendly and knowledgeable.  Very highly recommended.  

 

We spent so much time on the three Mosquitos there - including the original prototype, back on the rural site at which it was originally completed and flown from a field adjoining the Hall - plus Hornet, Moth target drone, DH88 Comet - and the De Havilland Cierva C24 autogyro - that we just didn't get into the four-jet Comets, the Vampire, Sea Vixen, Dove, Heron etc etc largely parked outside.  So we're going back to complete the tour.  Here's a taste of what's so lovingly preserved there...

 

1 - First prototype in part-yellow hi-vis 'new type on test' livery

 

 

2 - Difficult to provide a full view in tight-packed hangar...

 

 

3 - Replica of the DH88 Comet MacRobertson England-Australia air race entry...

 

 

3B - Jam packery, but in really well appointed accommodation...

 

 

4 - The frankly weird DH-Cierva C24 autogyro with its DH Puss Moth fuselage cockpit section

 

 

5 - Excellent guide ex-RAF Hercules aircrew Rick with Sir Geoffrey de Havilland's Hornet Moth

 

 

6 - Mosquito crewmen came in all sizes...

 

 

7 - The Mosquito-dropped Barnes Wallis 'bouncing bomb' anti-ship weapon - 'Highball' - as tested for potential assault upon Tirpitz and similar targets, essentially in a Norwegian fjord.  This original test weapon was salvaged from Loch Striven - the dent suggests it hit something hard, hopefully its intended de-commissioned cruiser target

 

 

The unexplored outdoor display - sadly weathering DH Dove, Heron, etc...plenty more to see.

 

 

 

DCN

 

 

Great stuff . 

 

[10kDA]

I've seen a rather grainy scan of the picture, although it was reputedly photographed from such a low level that crew members could be seen on deck. Although the other suggestion that they could be individually recognised is probably apocryphal ...

Possibly not, my gang of airport ramp rats once had a guest speaker who had flown F-5s, unarmed photo-recon versions of the Lockheed P-38, in the South Pacific during WWII. He said the standard procedure was to approach the objective as low and as fast as possible, pulling up at the last second to trip the shutter. He said that often meant their altitude over the objective could be measured in dozens of feet LOL. This tactic minimized exposure to small arms fire though sometimes the intel people analyzing the photos complained he and his fellow pilots didn't get enough in the frames - they wanted a wider field of view which would have meant tripping the shutters at a higher altitude, thus making the airplane a better target. The standard answer was "I'll try for that next time."

[Gregor Marshall]

It's a great local (to me) museum, but they have fallen foul of local planning permissions, which seems to have gone quiet recently - https://www.hertsad....ive-permission/

Hopefully all has been or will be resolved amicably and cost effectively, as the old Mosquito Museum (as I knew it and someone above said) would be a sad loss - there's not enough in the local area celebrating its aviation history.