273 replies to this topic

[juicy sushi]

It's a couple of weeks away, the entire world is on fire, we're all doomed, and the sweet meteor of death is only arriving in 2032.

 

So I figured this would be a great time to start a thread on the best world championship currently going in motorsports (that's right, I said it):

 

The 2025 FIA World Endurance Championship.  8 epic rounds of peak racing, at some of the best tracks in the world*.

 

What do we have on the menu?

 

 

1. Qatar 1812km - Losail Circuit - February 28
2. 6 Hours of Imola - Autodromo Internazionale Enzo e Dino Ferrari - April 20
3. 6 Hours of Spa-Francorchamps - Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps - May 10
4. 24 Hours of Le Mans - Circuit de la Sarthe - June 14-15
5. 6 Hours of São Paolo - Autódromo José Carlos Pace - July 13
6. Lone Star Le Mans - Circuit of the Americas - September 7
7. 6 Hours of Fuji - Fuji Speedway - September 28
8. 8 Hours of Bahrain - Bahrain International Circuit - November 8

This feast shall serve us two courses each time.  We have the Hypercar class featuring LMH and LMDh cars, and the LMGT3 class, featuring GT3 cars.

 

I am not going to go through the full entry list for everyone, as it's just too damn long, like the ingredients list in a McDonald's cheeseburger.  Suffice to say, you can read them all here (since there isn't a full entry list on the official website):

https://en.wikipedia...ionship#Entries

 

But what makes this a feast?  Well, unlike certain other championships, which may leave you saying 

 

 

You get multiple Grand Prixs worth of action in each race.  Heck, the shortest WEC round is 4 Grand Prix long.  And with 36 cars, most of which are extremely close competitively, there is never a shortage of action.  How much action you may ask?  Well, the series has every race from last year on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/@FIAWEC), unedited or abridged.  So, if you like your racing served with authenticity, you can fill up to your heart's content.  If you were preferring something fast casual, then they also have helpfully condensed a season for the ages into a single hour-long highlight video:

 

 

Hard racing with beautiful cars that don't need crutches like DRS to pass each other.  And more manufacturer participation than any other championship on the planet.  

 

 

A sampling of the contenders in Hypercar:

 

Ferrari 499P:

 

Alpine A424:

 

Toyota GR010:

 

Porsche 963:

 

Peugeot 9X8:

 

Cadillac V-Series.R:

 

Aston Martin Valkyrie:

 

BMW M Hybrid V8:

 

 

 

Now, before we go any further, we might as well get one thing out of the way.  The series uses a Balance of Performance (BoP) to keep the cars within fighting distance of each other.  Some of us feel that is a necessary compromise for mechanical diversity.  Others, well, feel more like

 

 

The series itself bans the teams from talking about it publicly, which is smart as it means everyone gets to focus on the racing instead of political lobbying for breaks like the old air restrictors or Equivalence of Energy stuff.  The BoP is the BoP, there's no point arguing about it because we can't change it.  So please, let's avoid spending too much time dwelling on it as we pick over the bones of this feast.

 

So, buckle up, feel free to post all of the car porn you want of the new liveries and entries, and above all

 

 

 

*Definitions of "best tracks in the world may vary".  Statement is not definitive or legally-binding.  Void where prohibited by law, and in the state of Delaware.

Edited by juicy sushi, 14 February 2025 - 16:16.

[JHSingo]

Curious to see how last year's contingent fare with a season's experience behind them. BMW and Alpine both showed flashes of potential last year, and it'd be great to see them mix it at the front more this year. Also hoping to see Cadillac take a long overdue WEC win or two with Jota as well. 

 

Fingers crossed the Aston Martins are there or thereabouts, but if nothing else at least they'll add to the spectacle, which would be no bad thing.  

Edited by JHSingo, 14 February 2025 - 15:02.

[EvilPhil II]

Best racing series in a very long time. We are beginning to reach F1 2007/2008 levels of interest. Really great stuff. 

 

In my older age I will share this wisdom which I wish i knew long ago when I let the ITC and Group GT1 and IndyCar at Brands Hatch even A1GP come and go without going to see them in the flesh.

 

Go and see this series while it exists in its glory. Visit Imola and see these wonderful machines and their beautiful noise in a real circuit. 

 

Have an experience to remember. Support the series. 

 

Philip 

[Mat13]

Great OP 👍🏼

[FLB]

Just a reminder that this car will go down the Hunaudières (the Mulsanne Straight) this year at Le Mans.

 

https://www.youtube....rts/K71Ejrzjt2g

 

Edited by FLB, 15 February 2025 - 13:56.

[PhantomRaspberryBlower]

So whats the news on live coverage in the UK? Eurosport UK will be gone just as Qatar is firing up

[EvilPhil II]

In the UK are you now qualified to use the following service: 

• www.fiawec.tv

Edited by EvilPhil II, 15 February 2025 - 14:43.

[jonpollak]

I love Emma Stone.
Have you seen Poor Things???

Frickin’ Amazing

Jp

[crooky369]

Best racing series in a very long time. We are beginning to reach F1 2007/2008 levels of interest. Really great stuff.

In my older age I will share this wisdom which I wish i knew long ago when I let the ITC and Group GT1 and IndyCar at Brands Hatch even A1GP come and go without going to see them in the flesh.

Go and see this series while it exists in its glory. Visit Imola and see these wonderful machines and their beautiful noise in a real circuit.

Have an experience to remember. Support the series.

Philip

This 100%. Motor racing isn't the sort of stable sport that you can put on a bucket list for 10 years time. Take the chance when you can.

I do wish there was one more European round after Le Mans on the calendar though. I feel with Imola and Spa that they're just slightly too early in the year and you risk some truly horrendous weather to battle through. Good on the TV but not so fun in person.

So we go back to the original point of the comment and... I wish I'd have gone to Monza when it was on in August.

[Risil]

I'm impressed by the enthusiasm and have fond memories of WEC last time it was good (with the expensive German hybrid cars). How do I watch from the UK?

[Risil]

Also I like the calendar, the races feel like proper events and not just a weekly exercise in producing content for socials.

[BRG]

Just a reminder that this car will go down the Hunaudières (the Mulsanne Straight) this year at Le Mans.

 

https://www.youtube....rts/K71Ejrzjt2g

 

Meh, but will it be anything like as awesome as the Matra V12s that you could hear changing down for Mulsanne Corner feven rom the pits which were about 20 miles away?

[crooky369]

Meh, but will it be anything like as awesome as the Matra V12s that you could hear changing down for Mulsanne Corner feven rom the pits which were about 20 miles away?

The last Aston Martin prototype (not including the AMR-One disaster!) the Lola Aston Martin V12 you could hear entering Indianapolis from inside your tent in Beasejour near the Porsche Curves.

Not quite Matra V12 levels of loud but still amazing that you could identify a car about a mile away whilst still tucked up in your sleeping bag!

[FLB]

The last Aston Martin prototype (not including the AMR-One disaster!) the Lola Aston Martin V12 you could hear entering Indianapolis from inside your tent in Beasejour near the Porsche Curves.

Not quite Matra V12 levels of loud but still amazing that you could identify a car about a mile away whilst still tucked up in your sleeping bag!

2010 Sebring 12H for me 

 

Aaahhhh...     

[Stephane]

yeah, really a nice sound, i had the chance to hear it atr Pas, Nurburgring and Le Mans. 3-car team at the time, and the 'belgian' car.

[jonpollak]

How do I watch from the UK?

Discovery+ or the WEC app.
Both are paid.
Jp

[PayasYouRace]

Also I like the calendar, the races feel like proper events and not just a weekly exercise in producing content for socials.

Just missing the Tourist Trophy.

[FLB]

Just missing the Tourist Trophy.

There are few issues still, but it's encouraging the European Le Mans Series is going back to the UK: The ELMS’ Return To Silverstone Is Welcome News, But It Doesn’t Mean A WEC Race Is Coming Soon…

[NCB619]

Gosh I wish they'd come to Australia. Though.. not really any circuits that could accomodate this other than The Bend.

[Silverstone96]

Golden era though it is, the lack of European rounds especially Silverstone is incredibly frustrating.

Seems the manufacturers are the ones most resistant to it, they want it kept to 8 rounds and for higher paying fees to be a priority.

The tv situation here in the uk is also a concern.

[PayasYouRace]

What grade of circuit does Hypercar require?

I’m also thinking that they could do what IMSA does and have GT only rounds to get some lower graded circuits included.

[Stephane]

We already have enough GT3 championships for those interested in this. With better driver line-ups i'd add.

 

LM(d)H only races, though, why not.

[Henri Greuter]

We already have enough GT3 championships for those interested in this. With better driver line-ups i'd add.

 

LM(d)H only races, though, why not.

 

 

 

With LMP2 to make up the numbers since LM(d)H alone  is too short a field?

[Stephane]

Why not

 

 

 

(i somehow thought we had more than 20 cars now)

Edited by Stephane, 17 February 2025 - 11:27.

[juicy sushi]

The second Proton not arriving, plus the end of Lambo’s effort, reduces us to only 18 for now.

[Dunc]

I'm trying to get more into WEC from having only been a casual observer in the past, thank you very much for such a good OP.

[Stoffel]

We already have enough GT3 championships for those interested in this. With better driver line-ups i'd add.

 

LM(d)H only races, though, why not.

 

While I agree on the GT3 part, I do find that having to deal with the GT traffic is part of endurance racing.

[OvDrone]

OH HELL YES 

 

Thank you JS for the fantastic OP   

I am so very hyped for this new season. And am curious to see who everyone is supporting. My main crew will be the #38 of course - Button, Bamber and Bourdais in a Jota Cadillac ?! Where can I sign ? Followed up by the #51 Ferrari, #6 Porsche, #15 BMW, #36 Alpine and #93 Peugeot. 

[Henri Greuter]

The second Proton not arriving, plus the end of Lambo’s effort, reduces us to only 18 for now.

as well as the Isotta effectively being thrown out...

[Dara]

Great OP, let's hope this season ends better then the movie ;)

Rooting for Porsche and BMW this season.

[juicy sushi]

OH HELL YES 

 

Thank you JS for the fantastic OP   

I am so very hyped for this new season. And am curious to see who everyone is supporting. My main crew will be the #38 of course - Button, Bamber and Bourdais in a Jota Cadillac ?! Where can I sign ? Followed up by the #51 Ferrari, #6 Porsche, #15 BMW, #36 Alpine and #93 Peugeot. 

I plan on rooting for the Alpines and the Toyotas.  But as usual, really just want good races.  I feel you're in for a season of struggle cheering for the #38.  I fear that pooling Bamber and Bourdais in the same car might concentrate the mayhem, but also double the opportunities for that car to find the fence.

[juicy sushi]

as well as the Isotta effectively being thrown out...

Not gonna lie, I am shedding no tears for something that had "traditional promising but failing prototype effort" all over it from the start.  The last 30 years have been full of those kind of entries, I'm rather bored of that and am ok with a grid full of big bucks factories for a change.

[Anja]

Were they thrown out? I thought they ran out of money. 

[Dan333SP]

Were they thrown out? I thought they ran out of money. 

 

This is true. They saw themselves out the door before the 2024 season was over because of the dwindling resources. 

 

For me, I'll be pulling for the Valkyries on principal but not expecting much in terms of real performance, Cadillacs and Alpines for the likely contenders, and BMW as another dark horse. 

[NCB619]

What grade of circuit does Hypercar require?

I’m also thinking that they could do what IMSA does and have GT only rounds to get some lower graded circuits included.

Apparently Grade 2, but that's more off circumstantial notes/what other people are saying elsewhere.

[Henri Greuter]

Were they thrown out? I thought they ran out of money. 

 

 

Money was indeed one issue, but like with Lamborghini, the obligation to field two cars was another unsurvivable handicap. And that was mandated by the rule makers and thus effectivly how they were thrown out.

 

@Juicy Sushi;  I understand where you come from but I think Le Mans last year did prove that the outfit was much more better organized and equipped that the originator of the feelings you had: all the different Colin Kolles efforts.

And if BOP is applied to accomodate whatever some teams want to race stand a chance, even if it is entirely different from just everything else and requires its own rules, then allowing a minnow team that at least shows promise and gets cars at the finish in a Le Mans 24 should deserve a chance as well.

At least, that's myopinion.

Please no ByKolles jokes anymnore, but Isotta and Glickenhause deserved better treatment.

[Dan333SP]

Money was indeed one issue, but like with Lamborghini, the obligation to field two cars was another unsurvivable handicap. And that was mandated by the rule makers and thus effectivly how they were thrown out.

 

@Juicy Sushi;  I understand where you come from but I think Le Mans last year did prove that the outfit was much more better organized and equipped that the originator of the feelings you had: all the different Colin Kolles efforts.

And if BOP is applied to accomodate whatever some teams want to race stand a chance, even if it is entirely different from just everything else and requires its own rules, then allowing a minnow team that at least shows promise and gets cars at the finish in a Le Mans 24 should deserve a chance as well.

At least, that's myopinion.

Please no ByKolles jokes anymnore, but Isotta and Glickenhause deserved better treatment.

 

It is true they withdrew shortly before the 2 car mandate became official for 2025, but it's a sort of chicken or the egg scenario because if they knew they were going to be unable to field a 2nd car, why not at least finish the 2024 season to prove the car's potential and try to market the concept? 

 

I think the pre-season fallout between IF and Vector Sport pointed to a company with shoddy finances before the car even hit the track, so the end result wasn't a surprise, but it is a shame because like you said they did invest money in the car's design and powertrain and it was a markedly better effort than the Kolles "Vanwall". 

 

I don't think Glickenhaus received any improper treatment with regards to WEC for what it's worth, they had every opportunity to continue but Jim's resources were not unlimited and he'd already realistically achieved everything that car was capable of at Le Mans. The noise of unfairness there was always around IMSA not allowing boutique manufacturers to enter, but who knows if Glick were ever serious about racing in IMSA or if it was all posturing for attention. 

[juicy sushi]

Money was indeed one issue, but like with Lamborghini, the obligation to field two cars was another unsurvivable handicap. And that was mandated by the rule makers and thus effectivly how they were thrown out.

 

@Juicy Sushi;  I understand where you come from but I think Le Mans last year did prove that the outfit was much more better organized and equipped that the originator of the feelings you had: all the different Colin Kolles efforts.

And if BOP is applied to accomodate whatever some teams want to race stand a chance, even if it is entirely different from just everything else and requires its own rules, then allowing a minnow team that at least shows promise and gets cars at the finish in a Le Mans 24 should deserve a chance as well.

At least, that's myopinion.

Please no ByKolles jokes anymnore, but Isotta and Glickenhause deserved better treatment.

Glickenhaus, yes.  I will grant that.  They were considerably more professional and focused, just lacking the scale to be competitive.  But Isotta was a too familiar tale.  A group of very smart racing people doing a project that needed funding to arrive which never did.  I find those just as annoying as the ByKolles stuff because they never work out, but the press always fawn over them and big them up.  The only successful projects in racing have been funding first, other stuff after.  And since that had almost never happened in sports car racing, the results were always predictable.  The thing I like about Hypercar is that the LMH, and more clearly and particularly, the LMDh rules, accepted that problem and worked to create a rules set which was designed to the funding level manufacturers could justify, and then went from there.  The ruthless honesty about where sports car racing's place in motorsport was, and the level of commitment it was likely to receive from the big brands, is what made it a success.  If they can continue this going forward, then the ecosystem can become deeper, the brands go from taking a chance to seeing this as a preferred long-term path, and sports car racing as a whole is able to avoid the boom and bust rhythm which has generally been its economic structure since the end of Group C.

[juicy sushi]

We've got your initial BoP here:

 

https://sportscar365...-season-opener/

 

Toyota and Porsche start out the heaviest, but the lightest car is only 35kg less, rather than 59kg like last year, so the gap has been tightened.  Peugeot gets the most power below 250kmh (520kw), Ferrari the least (501kw), but that's balanced out in the showers vs growers stakes by the Peugeot losing the most over 250 (30kw), while the Caddy and Toyota grow the most (from 503kw to 520kw).

 

Along with some news and notes from the Prologue:  

 

https://www.dailyspo...dock-notes.html

 

Worth noting, the Valkyrie is apparently exactly 1db below the limit using the IMSA exhaust, which the WEC entries will be doing.  

[juicy sushi]

Also, as a description I never saw coming, but am not questioning, given the source:

The Porsche 963 drives like an old V8 Supercar.

https://www.v8sleuth...-gen2-supercar/

[Henri Greuter]

We've got your initial BoP here:

 

https://sportscar365...-season-opener/

 

Toyota and Porsche start out the heaviest, but the lightest car is only 35kg less, rather than 59kg like last year, so the gap has been tightened.  Peugeot gets the most power below 250kmh (520kw), Ferrari the least (501kw), but that's balanced out in the showers vs growers stakes by the Peugeot losing the most over 250 (30kw), while the Caddy and Toyota grow the most (from 503kw to 520kw).

 

Along with some news and notes from the Prologue:  

 

https://www.dailyspo...dock-notes.html

 

Worth noting, the Valkyrie is apparently exactly 1db below the limit using the IMSA exhaust, which the WEC entries will be doing.  

 

 

If that thing is excluded after race because of been over the noise limit, I would laugh out so loud that I would be over the limit as well.

 

[Dan333SP]

Pretty sure they measure the cars in a controlled environment and homologate the exhaust parts rather than running test equipment at every track for validation, so very unlikely they'll be getting any sort of surprise DQ because of noise. 

[Stephane]

That has happened before (not in wec, I conceded)

Edited by Stephane, 20 February 2025 - 18:36.

[Henri Greuter]

Pretty sure they measure the cars in a controlled environment and homologate the exhaust parts rather than running test equipment at every track for validation, so very unlikely they'll be getting any sort of surprise DQ because of noise. 

 

I agree on how the measurements likely being carried out.

But I hope that measurements will be carried out during the races as well since being too loud would have an effect on power output thus indicate BOP violations too.

And just about everything about that thing cries about it being strangled compared with the original specs of the `ehum` street version it is derived off.

And thus being way and way closer to the edges of its own set of rules being created for it in order to let it into the series than is the case with most of the other cars within the field.
I won't be at all surprised if, apart from the `eargasms` its fans will experience while hearing it, this thing will eventually cause certain kind of difficulties and discussions about it and the racing formula it is admitted to and be the cause of troubles minor and/or big.

[FLB]

That has happened before (not in wec, I conceded)

I remember a late-1980s IMSA race at Del Mar, CA where somebody had a penalty for excessive noise (James Weaver in the Dyson Porsche, maybe?).

[Dan333SP]

I remember a late-1980s IMSA race at Del Mar, CA where somebody had a penalty for excessive noise (James Weaver in the Dyson Porsche, maybe?).

 

A 962 breaking any sort of noise regulation would be crazy, especially in a field that often had N/A V12s and V8s! Maybe some very specific directional acoustic thing.

[JHSingo]

I was thinking only the other day that we hadn't had many posts from Henri on the subject of the Valkyrie recently...your hatred of this car is very impressive, I must say. 

 

I know you have your reasons, but you must be the only motorsport enthusiast to not be looking forward to seeing this car race. 

[Dan333SP]

I'm probably wrong about them not checking at every track, there are regulations dealing with infringements- 

 

https://www.fiawec.c...-discipline/113

 

"If the noise level or temperature is exceeded, the car will be stopped by race control and the team must repair the anomaly before the car can be allowed to re-join the race (first excess noted). In the case of subsequent cases of exceeding regulations, penalty at the Stewards’ discretion, up to the exclusion of the competitor."

[FLB]

A 962 breaking any sort of noise regulation would be crazy, especially in a field that often had N/A V12s and V8s! Maybe some very specific directional acoustic thing.

The Dyson/Weaver incident is mentioned in one of the comments of the article: RETRO: The sounds of IMSA, 1992 Del Mar | RACER

[Dan333SP]

I agree on how the measurements likely being carried out.

But I hope that measurements will be carried out during the races as well since being too loud would have an effect on power output thus indicate BOP violations too.

And just about everything about that thing cries about it being strangled compared with the original specs of the `ehum` street version it is derived off.

And thus being way and way closer to the edges of its own set of rules being created for it in order to let it into the series than is the case with most of the other cars within the field.
I won't be at all surprised if, apart from the `eargasms` its fans will experience while hearing it, this thing will eventually cause certain kind of difficulties and discussions about it and the racing formula it is admitted to and be the cause of troubles minor and/or big.

 

I think anything breaking in the exhaust that increases power would be flagged in the torque sensor readings they use to ensure the cars are in compliance with the BoP, but your point is definitely valid that an exhaust malfunction could lead to a slight bump in power. 

 

I do wonder what you mean by the last bit about difficulties and discussions? I'm thinking you mean other teams will feel unfairly treated if the Valkyrie is given a seemingly unfair BoP that allows them to "hide" their deficiencies with the big/heavy motor and lack of hybrid? To me this isn't a concern because WEC is currently flush with manufacturers and if HoR can get this thing into the minimum performance window, then it'll just fluctuate race to race like all of the curent cars. If they can't, WEC doesn't "need" them and they'll eventually fall off the grid.