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#1 DCapps

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 18:51

Apparently, I missed something because I thought that International Racing Formula No. 1 had already been around for 75 years -- coming into being in 1947 on the heels of that particular formula being devised in 1946.

 

Certainly can't be the FIA Formula 1 World Championship since its first season was 1981, after being announced in April 1980.

 

Or, am I just being difficult and letting the facts get in the way of the stuff being tossed out by the propaganda machine that is part of a dysfunctional organization?

 

Then again, since I have problems with 2 + 2 = 5, I might not be the intended audience, of course.

 

 



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#2 ensign14

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 21:17

One might call this the Rangers Dilemma.

 

The football club Rangers FC was founded in 1872.  In 2011, the company which runs the club went bust, and was liquidated.  A new company was set up which took over the essence of Rangers and started again.

 

Is this a new club or the original?

 

It's akin to Jenks' Bugattis. 

 

Or maybe we take a broad view.  2025 is the 75th anniversary of the first motor racing world championship for drivers, which (apart from a 2 year hiatus caused by the AIACR not wanting Ferrari to dominate, WELL THAT WORKED) has always been run to Formula 1 regulations.  So the branding works and there's a neat Easter egg akin to me saying "actually there's only been one Italian F1 world champion driver"...



#3 Collombin

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 22:40

One might call this the Rangers Dilemma.

The football club Rangers FC was founded in 1872. In 2011, the company which runs the club went bust, and was liquidated. A new company was set up which took over the essence of Rangers and started again.

Is this a new club or the original?


When the Cleveland Browns moved to Baltimore, the entity and personnel continued as before (other than becoming successful), but their team name and uniforms had to change and all their historical records were left in Cleveland, the Baltimore team being treated as a brand new franchise. Then a new team with new players started up in Cleveland and picked up all the old history and the original name and uniforms etc.

On topic, I saw a launch programme advertised on Sky that claimed this is F1's 75th year. So it must have begun in 1951 then?

#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 05:08

Is it not more correct to say that Formula 1, as an official category, began in 1948? Although the formula it was applied to had been running officially since the beginning of 1947, unofficially since late 1946, it was still just the ‘International Formula’ before 1948. It was only when the FIA created Formula 2 for 1948 that a new term was required to distinguish the old International Formula from the new formula. I believe there is a case for regarding the 1948 Pau GP as the first official Formula 1 race.

#5 Collombin

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 06:49

I would agree with that. If the name matters then the fact that races had been run to the exact same regulations in 1946 and 1947 is a moot point. And the technical regulations of the International Formula changed over time anyway, as indeed they do so in F1 to this very day.

If the name doesn't matter then we can look back to the first race held under the International Formula - was that the Grand Prix of 1908?

There may be no one correct answer that everyone can agree on as to when F1 truly began, but anything after 1948 is definitely wrong.

#6 jcbc3

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 09:11

Sometimes one can discuss substance and sometimes one can discuss semantics. Sometimes they are important to a conversation, sometimes they are not.

 

I believe the substance here is to celebrate the crowning of a world champion driver in the highest category arranged by the international motorsport regulator. If that was in an existing category (F1 which apparently started in 1948) or in different categories for various reasons (F2 in 1952-53), the substance of it being an official world championship remain the same. Started in 1950 and continuing to this day.



#7 DCapps

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 13:38

Sometimes one can discuss substance and sometimes one can discuss semantics. Sometimes they are important to a conversation, sometimes they are not.

 

I believe the substance here is to celebrate the crowning of a world champion driver in the highest category arranged by the international motorsport regulator. If that was in an existing category (F1 which apparently started in 1948) or in different categories for various reasons (F2 in 1952-53), the substance of it being an official world championship remain the same. Started in 1950 and continuing to this day.

 

Oh, that's correct: 2 + 2 = 5...



#8 ReWind

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 13:44

The title of the thread makes no sense at all for a simple mind like me.

"F175"? What shall it mean?

Maybe Hubert means "F1 75". But how shall we lesser ones ever know?

 

EDIT: This post was made before the thread title was altered from "F175" to "F1 75".


Edited by ReWind, 16 February 2025 - 19:19.


#9 DCapps

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 15:44

The title of the thread makes no sense at all for a simple mind like me.

"F175"? What shall it mean?

Maybe Hubert means "F1 75". But how shall we lesser ones ever know?

 

It is simply the way the Formula 1 self-licking ice cream cone public relations people within the FIA are marketing the 2025 season. 

However, you seem to grasp the point, such as it might be, regarding the basic question: What does this mean?

 

Given the paucity (to be kind) of any meaningful content on the Official F1 site, I rarely waste my time taking a look at the essentially vapid, thought-free stuff there.

Out of curiosity, wondering if Eff Wun was going for 30+ races this year with maybe five or six teams, I took a look and "F175" seemed to be the current marketing theme.

Jcbc3 pretty much mimics the Official Party Line from the FIA and nails a possible position with FOM or whoever is running the clown show series these days.

I just find myself loving the absurdity of it all.

Plus, I was wondering if there would be any 13 or 14 year olds in Eff Wun this season, given that seems to be the coming trend.



#10 Tim Murray

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 16:52

Some posts have been removed. Please stick to the topic under discussion. Thank you.

#11 opplock

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 19:03

One might call this the Rangers Dilemma.

 

The football club Rangers FC was founded in 1872.  In 2011, the company which runs the club went bust, and was liquidated.  A new company was set up which took over the essence of Rangers and started again.

 

Is this a new club or the original?

 

 

 

The bitter war between AFC Wimbledon and Franchise FC cooled down a little after trophies and regalia previously belonging to the late lamented Wimbledon FC were repatriated from Milton Keynes to South London. I imagine that if you ask anyone in an AFCW scarf who won the 1988 FA Cup the answer will be "we did". Rangers fans will no doubt rattle off a lengthy list of pre 2011 honours. 

 

If anyone asks me who was Williams first F1 driver the answer is Piers Courage. 



#12 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 19:12

Someone’s on their hobbyhorse again. There’s no functional difference between 1980 and 1981 other than some paperwork, and someone as versed in motor racing history would know that. Nobody considered that there was anything new happening in 1981. It was all the same people, the same organisations, the same teams, the same venues, and the same cars complying with the same rules. Well, aside from changes that would be indistinguishable from any other off season of “Gee Pee” racing.

 

 

To answer the OP directly, yes, you’re being difficult. Quite easy when you dismiss any opposite argument as vapid thoughtlessness I suppose.



#13 ReWind

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 20:22

(After two removals the third try)

It is perfectly all right to use „F1“ as a synonym instead of saying something along the lines of „the series of car races held since 1950 to determine the world champion of racing drivers on an annual basis mostly using cars according to Formula 1 but sometimes also cars according to Formula 2 or even cars according to the formula which allowed them to race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway over 500 miles but even sometimes over a shorter distance… [and so on and on and on]“ – as long as the context you use this abbreviation in is clear.

And the context is clear as far as that ominous "F1 75" is concerned.

 



#14 lustigson

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Posted 16 February 2025 - 13:12

(After two removals the third try)

It is perfectly all right to use „F1“ as a synonym instead of saying something along the lines of „the series of car races held since 1950 to determine the world champion of racing drivers on an annual basis mostly using cars according to Formula 1 but sometimes also cars according to Formula 2 or even cars according to the formula which allowed them to race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway over 500 miles but even sometimes over a shorter distance… [and so on and on and on]“ – as long as the context you use this abbreviation in is clear.

And the context is clear as far as that ominous "F1 75" is concerned.

 

Yes... but the counting is still off by a year.



#15 ReWind

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Posted 16 February 2025 - 15:52

Yes... but the counting is still off by a year.

It will be the 76th championship season but in May it will be 75 years since the first championship race.

 

It was a similar thing with the German series DTM last year. It was promoted as "DTM 40" because the series started in 1984. But that was under a different name (don't tell Hubert!), it contnínued under another name until 1995 (don't tell Hubert, either) and re-started in 2000 (under its current name, but since 2021 not with touring cars anymore; don't tell..., you know what I mean).

So 2024 was not the 40th year and not the 41st year either because the series (under whatever name) lay dormant for four years (1996 - 1999).


Edited by ReWind, 16 February 2025 - 15:52.


#16 ReWind

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Posted 16 February 2025 - 18:11

The title of the thread makes no sense at all for a simple mind like me.
"F175"? What shall it mean?

It is simply the way the Formula 1 self-licking ice cream cone public relations people within the FIA are marketing the 2025 season.

The title of this thread is "F175" which reads as "Eff one hundred and seventy five".
That is NOT what the official logo for the coming season says because it looks like this. (There is clearly a difference between F1 and 75.)

 

EDIT: This post was made before the thread title was altered from "F175" to "F1 75".


Edited by ReWind, 16 February 2025 - 19:19.


#17 Kvadrat

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Posted 17 February 2025 - 02:48

Someone’s on their hobbyhorse again. There’s no functional difference between 1980 and 1981 other than some paperwork, and someone as versed in motor racing history would know that. Nobody considered that there was anything new happening in 1981. It was all the same people, the same organisations, the same teams, the same venues, and the same cars complying with the same rules. Well, aside from changes that would be indistinguishable from any other off season of “Gee Pee” racing.

 

 

To answer the OP directly, yes, you’re being difficult. Quite easy when you dismiss any opposite argument as vapid thoughtlessness I suppose.

 

There’s no functional difference between 1949 and 1950 at all, no even paperwork, and someone as versed in motor racing history knows this perfectly. Nobody considered that there was anything new happening in 1950. It was all the same people, the same organisations, the same teams, the same venues, and the same cars complying with the same rules.



#18 jcbc3

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Posted 17 February 2025 - 08:24

However, the ultimate prize in 1950 was a WDC which it wasn't in 1949. Seems like a big difference to me.



#19 Collombin

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Posted 17 February 2025 - 08:55

However, the ultimate prize in 1950 was a WDC which it wasn't in 1949. Seems like a big difference to me.


Have a look at the races at which Ferrari chose to compete/not compete in 1950 and then tell me the WDC was seen as the be all and end all eg. missing the British GP (first ever WDC race) for an F2 race in Mons, withdrawing from the French GP yet racing in Bari a week later etc.

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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 February 2025 - 09:23

At some point in the late 1950s, buried in a discussion at a CSI meeting and issued as a supplementary regulation, there was probably a decision made to mandate 'cars conforming to the current FIA Formula 1' as the only acceptable contestants in a World Championship race. The previous (unwritten?) rule that races had to possess Grande Épreuve status had been effectively dropped when Pescara had hosted its only World Championship race - and without checking, I doubt the Moroccan GP was on the calendar as a Grande Épreuve either.

 

But, whichever way you frame it semantically the first year in which all the cars competing for the title were Formula 1 cars was 1960. Although of course there were still exceptions which prove the rule, like the Formula 2 'makeweights' brought in to fill various grids in the 1960s - technically in a 'similtaneous race'.



#21 Collombin

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Posted 17 February 2025 - 09:32

the first year in which all the cars competing for the title were Formula 1 cars was 1960. Although of course there were still exceptions which prove the rule

I think Indy would be quite a big exception!

It's notable that the 1961-65 F1 was (I believe) the only time they mandated a minimum engine capacity as well as a maximum.

Edited by Collombin, 17 February 2025 - 09:32.


#22 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 February 2025 - 11:17

I think Indy would be quite a big exception!

It's notable that the 1961-65 F1 was (I believe) the only time they mandated a minimum engine capacity as well as a maximum.

I was posting from (slightly faulty!) memory - 1961 was of course the first time the 500 was excluded. So maybe the switch was part of (or consequent on) the announcement of the 1.5 litre rules ...

 

Further on the Grande Épreuve status - until 1949 the British Grande Épreuve was always the RAC Tourist Trophy, but it was changed to the RAC British Grand Prix in 1950. I believe the Monaco GP retained its Grande Épreuve status even for the years it was run for sports cars - I'm not at home to check the relevant International calendars though ...



#23 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 February 2025 - 13:05

My understanding (can’t remember the source) is that the World Championship was officially mandated to be only for F1 cars from 1961 onward.

#24 uechtel

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Posted 17 February 2025 - 21:35

However, the ultimate prize in 1950 was a WDC which it wasn't in 1949. Seems like a big difference to me.

To me this is more what the marketing strategy wants to make us believe. If you want to sell F1 as a 'product', it certainly has to be invented at one point. It must have changed the automobile racing completely, in order to justify today´s importance. And then you also have an army of follow-up sellers today and not to forget all the statistic fans, who simply urge for some starting point, where 'everything' has begun and which they can use as a reference point.

 

But what happens, when you regard history not retrospectively, but rather in 'forward mode'? So let´s make the experiment of a time journey into the past and then live through history in a chronologically way again. 

 

So what happend in 1947? Nothing really special, just the change of a Grand Prix formula, like what has happened before quite for a number of times, the last time before in 1938.

 

Ok, so now 1948. The Grand Prix formula remains still the same, same purpose, same sporting concept, same technical parameters, same races. Nothing really new, rather business as usual. The only change that is made is the introduction of an officially sanctioned second-level formula. This itself has absolutely no effect on top level Grand Prix racing, with the only exception, that you need an additional wording in order to be able to distinguish one from the other. At the time this is not even an official naming, as is expressed in the use of variants like 'Formula A' or 'Formula I', until 'Formula 1' gradually starts to prevail.

 

Next to come 1949, and hardly any change for the Grand Prix universum, but the FIM has introduced a World Championship. This isn´t something absolutely new either, as there have been national championships, continental championships and even world championships in motor racing before. Of course the FIA doesn´t want to stay behind and makes the same decision for 1950. And in contrast to the meaning of the modern word 'series', which is used so commonly today, it did absoluetly not have such a character at the time. There was no really overspanning organization behind,  all the races were simply carried out as before, under great sovereignty of the national automobile clubs. Vastly different sporting regulations, different criteria for which entrants to accept and which to deny, financial terms negotiated very individually with the participants etc. etc.. Even what was to be regarded as a 'Formula 1 car' was down to quite different interpretations by the local race organizations. The whole 'World Championship' thing was hardly anything more than just a number of guys sitting behind 'green tables' remotely in Paris and awarding 'points' to drivers according to the results as delivered by the race organizers. The cheapest and most effortless way to do such a thing and the one with the least effect on what happened out there on the race tracks.

 

For example for this first World Championship season there was effectively only one serious contestant in form of the Alfa Romeo team. One can almost have the impression that the whole thing had been introduced as a marketing idea for the Alfa Romeo company to distribute the title among their drivers (with team orders being absolutely standard at the time), rather than to deliver any real sporting value beyond this. And did Ferrari care? As has been mentioned before, the Commendatore decided to leave out the initial round just because inadequate starting money. Whould he really have come to this decision if it had appeared to him as the 'historical moment' as which we regard that event today?

 

After 1950 there were of course further changes, which can be regarded of similar, maybe sometimes even greater impact. The opening for sponsorship, TV broadcast, the foundation of FOCA, Formula 1 being formed from a set of technical regulations which everybody is free to use into a trademark, the transformation into a franchise etc. etc., If you think deeper there will be even more.

 

So the more I spend my thoughts on this question the more I come always to the answer, that we have to face the hard reality, that there is not some 'point zero', where everything of our modern F1 has started from. Maybe 1894, but still this is debatable and there are obvious connection points to even earlier forms of competition, like horse or bicycle racing.  But from then onwards, motor racing, Grand Prix Racing, Formula 1 etc. has always appeared less revolutionary than evolutionary, with a long long row of gradual changes until we reach the modern motorsport formats. 

 

But as  mentioned at the beginning of this point, this is hard to sell as a 'product'.


Edited by uechtel, 17 February 2025 - 21:44.


#25 Kvadrat

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Posted 18 February 2025 - 04:00

However, the ultimate prize in 1950 was a WDC which it wasn't in 1949. Seems like a big difference to me.

 

It wasn't in 1950. Most of people inside and outside motor racing circus didn't care. Just read contemporary press and see reality. And one extra point which is very important. 1950 WDC wasn't racing series similar to modern ones. There was no championship entry, no official points counting after each round, no award, no prize-giving ceremony - nothing at all.



#26 Charlieman

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Posted 18 February 2025 - 10:32

So what happend in 1947? Nothing really special, just the change of a Grand Prix formula, like what has happened before quite for a number of times, the last time before in 1938.

A minor quibble, but there was a conscious or unconscious decision to not resume the AIACR European Championship in 1947.



#27 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 February 2025 - 10:58

A minor quibble, but there was a conscious or unconscious decision to not resume the AIACR European Championship in 1947.

Only three pre-WW2 national GPs with previous Grande Épreuve status were held in 1947 - France, Belgium, Switzerland. 1948 - France, Italy, Switzerland, Monaco. 1949 - Belgium, Switzerland, Italy (plus France, which was run for sports cars). There wasn't the money - or the will - to do much more. And in both France and Britain there was - in addition to the 'how long can we exclude the Germans?' question - still some lingering anti-Italian sentiment.

 

Germany and Austria were both still under Allied military governments, Britain had no permanent circuits, Spain was still impoverished after the Civil War and an international pariah, the Dutch and Swedes had never run an international race, Czechoslovakia and Hungary were behind the Iron Curtain. Nowhere else had the facilities, means or ability.

 

The stimulus for a World Championship came from the FIM re-establishing the previous FICM European Championship as a multi-race series in 1949. And it's surely more than coincidental that Johnny Lurani was very influential at both the FIM and FIA at the time ...



#28 Roger Clark

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Posted 18 February 2025 - 12:26

I am always prepared to admit that I may be wrong but I believe that Max Verstappen is the latest holder of the title first won by Guiseppe Farina, that Alberto Ascari won it twice and that Niki Lauda  three times.  They won the World Championship, essentially the same thing, despite changes in name.  I also believe that motor sport has continually evolved since 1894 with very few single points of revolutionary change.

 

However, it is also true that there have been major changes since 1981, for example the standardisation of regulations and the need to register for the championship.  There are many others.  I am not sufficiently well informed to know which changes were part of the 1981 reorganisation and which followed it.  May I suggest that it would be more profitable to discuss the cause and effect of these changes, rather than trying to retrospectively apply names to things.

 

The same applies to the changes of the 1940s, of course.



#29 uechtel

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Posted 18 February 2025 - 21:05

I am always prepared to admit that I may be wrong but I believe that Max Verstappen is the latest holder of the title first won by Guiseppe Farina, that Alberto Ascari won it twice and that Niki Lauda  three times.  They won the World Championship, essentially the same thing, despite changes in name.  I also believe that motor sport has continually evolved since 1894 with very few single points of revolutionary change.

 

But exactly that is the reason why I think it is so totally misleading to treat with 1950 as the beginning of something special. For example it is awfully wrong (and unfair) to disregard Louis Chiron as a Grand Prix winner completely or to credit Fagioli with just only one Grand Prix win.when his four victories in the 1930ies - to use your words - were 'essentially the same thing', just because somebody had come to the idea to distribute some championship points for this 'essentially the same thing' from 1950 onward.

 

On the other hand, iff you state, that 1950 was a breakpoint and that the introduction of the championship justifies a 'full restart' then, to remain consistent in your argumentation, you would also have to apply this for 1981 (even more in my opinion), when the world championship changed its character and legal status completely - from being compiled by the results of independently organized races (at least always to a certain degree), which were mainly run to a common set of technical specifications designated as 'Formula 1', into an exclusive racing series under the "Formula 1" brand, to which nobody else was allowed to carry out races any more. If so, then this would mean, that Lauda was not a three-time winner of 'essentially the same thing', instead winning the Automobile World Championship twice and the Formula 1 World Championship once...


Edited by uechtel, 18 February 2025 - 21:07.


#30 Kvadrat

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Posted 19 February 2025 - 03:36

On the other hand, iff you state, that 1950 was a breakpoint and that the introduction of the championship justifies a 'full restart' then, to remain consistent in your argumentation, you would also have to apply this for 1981 (even more in my opinion), when the world championship changed its character and legal status completely - from being compiled by the results of independently organized races (at least always to a certain degree), which were mainly run to a common set of technical specifications designated as 'Formula 1', into an exclusive racing series under the "Formula 1" brand, to which nobody else was allowed to carry out races any more. If so, then this would mean, that Lauda was not a three-time winner of 'essentially the same thing', instead winning the Automobile World Championship twice and the Formula 1 World Championship once...

 

Moreover, Formula One 1981 to present is world championship only by title, not by sence. True championship of the world in every kind of sports is tournament open to everybody. This is not the case in Formula One. It's just commercial racing show intended not for determination of the best driver in the world but for getting as much money as possible from believers.



#31 Catalina Park

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Posted 19 February 2025 - 07:16

F1 died in 1952 from lack of interest. Anything after that is just a poor copy.



#32 Kvadrat

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Posted 20 February 2025 - 03:52

F1 died in 1952 from lack of interest. Anything after that is just a poor copy.

 

F1 simply did not exist then (I'm pretty sure you mean series of races). Instead, there was Grand Prix racing and it never died before 1981. That's why 1981 is many more important point rather than 1950.



#33 Doug Nye

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 09:36

Perhaps a little too much earnest nit-pickingly petty tosh seems to be expressed in this thread?  

 

Current Formula 1 interests do blether on about this year seeing the 75th anniversary of 'their' activity.  

 

This year does mark the 75th anniversary of the Formula 1 Drivers' World Championship series' inauguration...and that is all it marks.  Not the 75th anniversary "of Formula 1".  

 

I spent part of the winter forcibly seeking to impress this upon the BRDC and the Silverstone Museum, amongst others.  But so what?  There's none so deaf as will not hear.  Above all marketing forces shall prevail - and in any case the public at large quite properly could not give a damn.  

 

There are far, far more pressing matters to concern us all right now...with misinformation/disinformation in far more crucial areas than mere motor sport now threatening all our families' futures...    :( 

 

DCN