23 replies to this topic

[Greg Locock]

At the moment GM gives you the first 3 years of Supercruise for free (well you pay for it up front). After that they charge $25 per month. Only 20% of those eligible take that up.

 

This means 80% of the cars are carrying expensive stuff that can go wrong and performs no useful purpose.

[BRG]

How do I get Supercruise in the UK?  And WTF is it?

[jcbc3]

GM's drive by itself: https://www.chevrolet.com/super-cruise

 

prolly as useless as Tesla's.

[Magoo]

In shopping for a car to replace my Deplorean, I was surprised to see how even small base sedans are now loaded with electronic gadgets and safety nannies. 

 

I will never use most of that stuff and I wonder how many people ever do. As long as I can sync my phone, I'm good. 

[Magoo]

GM's drive by itself: https://www.chevrolet.com/super-cruise

 

prolly as useless as Tesla's.

 

As impressive as the Tesla Full Self Driving is, you're right. It doesn't serve any real purpose.

 

If say, a disabled person needs a car that will drive them point to point, it can't do that. 

 

I don't think the Cybertaxi is going to work with FSD without significant enhancements. 

[BRG]

Given that GM have pretty much given up on the UK market these days, I guess I am not part of the target market.  

 

The Waymo autonomous taxis in Phoenix and SF appear to work reasonably well but only in rather restricted urban environments.  

[Greg Locock]

Stellantis offers Level 3 https://www.autonews...autodrive-0220/

 

At various times various companies have announced that L3 is not of much interest to them because of the rather ill defined requirement about what else the driver can get up to and how quickly they have to resume control

 

ZF:It's a big leap from level 2 to level 3. From this stage onwards, the vehicle temporarily takes over the driving task from the driver. The human driver does not have to monitor the system constantly, and may pursue other activities within certain limits. When the systems reach their limits, the driver must be able to intervene at any time - after a warning period. Germany has already created the legal requirements for highly automated systems in 2017. Meanwhile, Mercedes-Benz is the first manufacturer that got the approval for a level 3 system in passenger cars.

 

More to the point the car company is responsible for any accidents while the L3 system is in control.

[Magoo]

Given that GM have pretty much given up on the UK market these days, I guess I am not part of the target market.  

 

The Waymo autonomous taxis in Phoenix and SF appear to work reasonably well but only in rather restricted urban environments.  

 

They're geofenced. Their entire operating theatre is premapped. 

[7MGTEsup]

More to the point the car company is responsible for any accidents while the L3 system is in control.

 

One assumes that control will be passed to the driver just before impact so it can be blamed on human error.

 

I'm not sure how you can be doing other activites and still be able to take control at a moments notice. It's not like you're given 5 seconds warning that an accident is about to happen.

 

I should imagine if you put someone in a car and told them to read a book and then sounded a buzzer at random it would take at least 3 seconds to move your focus to assess the situation and take any kind of action.

[Greg Locock]

I agree that's why several companies said they'd skip L3. They'll backtrack, because L4 is too limited and L5 is not feasible in a general sense in a foreseeable timeframe. 3s sounds about right and a time period should have been hard coded into the definition by now. instead it'll be left to the courts.

[404KF2]

300 bucks a year for semi-useful driving nannies? Nein danke. The car I'm about to replace is 18 years old and so that would have cost me well over 5 grand by now!

[Magoo]

I just acquired a new Hyundai Elantra to replace the Deplorean and was surprised to find it equipped with a number of driver aids I didn't even know I was shopping for.

 

I shut them all off and will sort them out later when I am in the mood. If you learn I died in a gruesome road accident you will be pleased to know it was accomplished entirely without electronic assistance. 

Edited by Magoo, 27 February 2025 - 23:18.

[gruntguru]

Wow - you are lucky to be able to shut them off. Many cars make you do that every time you start a journey.

[Greg Locock]

I know that on the Fiesta you can turn ESC off, and it says it is off, but there is still some residual spooky stuff happening. My Everest you have to turn everything off every time you start the car, ooh that's funny except for the automatic cruise control, you can select "Dumb cruise control" or "Occasionally scary automatic  cruise control" on a menu about 5 deep.

[Magoo]

The Elantra is also the only vehicle I have ever driven for any real length of time that is equipped with auto start/stop. I haven't found it obtrusive at all.

 

I wonder what all the fuss is, though I imagine it is far more dramatic with a big noisy V8. 

[404KF2]

Starter motor or starter-generator? The former are weird!

[BRG]

The Elantra is also the only vehicle I have ever driven for any real length of time that is equipped with auto start/stop. I haven't found it obtrusive at all.

 

I wonder what all the fuss is, though I imagine it is far more dramatic with a big noisy V8. 

I had a Mini-Cooper with a three cylinder 1.5l engine.  It had stop/start and it was horrible.  It re-started with a loud ge-donk noise that rattled your teeth.  Most unrefined and annoying and while you could cancel it, it reset itself every time you switched off.  Oddly, when starting the car normally, it didn't do that and started quietly.

 

I changed the car for a Mini-Cooper S with a four cylinder 2.0l engine and that was completely different - the stop/start was quite unobtrusive and didn't bother me at all.  I presume Minis use the same system, so the type of engine seems to make a big difference.  My current car is a Renault Clio hybrid whcih stops and starts its engine all the time of its own volition, but it is not obtrusive and I scarcely notice it in action.

 

Starter motor or starter-generator? The former are weird!

Do you mean the latter?  Nothing very weird about starter motors?

[404KF2]

No, using a starter motor for it is so crude! The self-starting cars I've driven make a very mild whump when the starter-generator restarts the engine. As opposed to wa-wa-wa-wa-whump with a starter motor.

[jcbc3]

It works a treat in my manual Peugeot. I have no idea if it's the generator or starter motor that does it, but it's instantaneous when dipping the clutch, so just quiet when waiting at intersection and zoom along when turning green. At least in this installation, I don't see any down side.

[mariner]

The stop/srart on my 2015 Ford is real pain becuase it shuts the engine down suddenly when you might be about to pull out of side road or into a roundabout/traffic circle. That is actually dangerous because it can cut as you move of. We disable it unless just siting in a long trafic jam. 

 

It is suposed to get 5% more mpg in the old euro test but whether it does in the new one I don't know. 

 

We now have a hybrid with , by defintion , stop start . It is way better as you always have the electric motor to move even if the engine is shut down. 

 

It must be said that stop/start without a hybriid motor causes a very a large cost increase . The starter  has to survive 300K starts vs a 50K target for a conventional motor. The battery has  to have sensing technology to prevent the S/S shutting down the  engine with not enough power ro restart it. That adds to battery cost and the batery ahs to be registeredd to the car using diagnostics so home battery changes are out. 

If it is a starter/ alternator restart system it needsa complex two way belt drive. 

 

SOme companies ( Mazda ) don't use the stater to restartt the engine , they sense which piston is near TDC and inject fuel and fires  a spark at that cylinder to re start , which is quicker and smoother - but not fool proof hence a warning light on dash.

 

Of course any people who grew up in the age of maunal advance  might know that juggling the A/R lever could restart an engine without climbing out to hand crank - like this 

 

Particularly amusing is the ability to start the Silver Ghost from hot by what appears to be ESP. All that is required is to crack the hand throttle, set  back the  ignition timing , switch on, and then, when your audience least expects it, flick the advance lever to full advance and instantly back to the normal operating advance. With any luck, advancing the ignition caused one cylinder at top dead center to fire its residual gas vapors, and instantly the engine is running: no cranking, no electric starter grinding away, just instant purring life. The uninitiated are totally bedazzled.

Edited by mariner, 18 March 2025 - 10:07.

[jcbc3]

The stop/srart on my 2015 Ford is real pain becuase it shuts the engine down suddenly when you might be about to pull out of side road or into a roundabout/traffic circle. That is actually dangerous because it can cut as you move of. We disable it unless just siting in a long trafic jam. 

 

...

 

I know i'm a bit of a Peugeot apologist on this, but....

 

I know what conditions/algorithm the stop start system uses. It's when you are standing still, ON the brakes and IN neutral. If one of these three simple things isn't happening, the stop start doesn't work.

 

So when I get to a stop light, I depress the clutch, and select neutral as I brake. When the car is at a stand still, the engine turns off. When the traffic light is about to turn green, I depress the clutch and the engine start. Before I have moved the gear lever into 1st, the engine is running and there is no 'jolt'. It cannot be smoother.

 

If my stop isn't at a traffic light or somewhere I don't want the engine to turn off, I just keep it either in gear, off the brakes or not at a standstill. Yes, it will mean I'm riding the clutch, however, the one in the Peugeot is in it's eighth year without any signs of wearing out. Which it shouldn't if you push it all the way down, instead of 'filing' it that many people seem to do.

 

Again, this is a manual and auto transmission cars with start/stop may behave otherwise. But I'm equally sure that if you know your cars behaviour you should be able to work around any potential problems.

 

0.02c

[404KF2]

The stop/start in the 508 SW Hybrid we had in 2023 was smooth like that, though it was an 8 speed automatic. Never a problem in 7500 km around Europe.

[Lee Nicolle]

Stop start,, costs a fortune in starters. The reason so many disable the stupid idea

[jcbc3]

Stop start,, costs a fortune in starters. The reason so many disable the stupid idea

 

you got sauce?