784 replies to this topic

[Beri]

Well the title says it all; FIA president Mohammed Ben Sulayem has gone on record to specifically talk about upcoming changes that he would like to see implemented. Including the possibility for V10s to return to Formula One. To quote his Instagram post:

 

Quote

This week’s F1 launch in London has triggered a lot of positive discussion on the future of the sport. While we look forward to the introduction of the 2026 regulations on chassis and power unit, we must also lead the way on future technological motorsport trends. We should consider a range of directions including the roaring sound of the V10 running on sustainable fuel.

 

And all the while I agree that there is an opening due to the path Formula One is taking with sustainable fuels, I do highly doubt that manufacturers do want to make said switch to V10s easily. The EV mindset as well as the investments made in becoming more carbon aware (lets call it that), have all resulted in a downsizing of engines in particular in road going vehicles. V10 engines arent common anymore and thus would be a niche just for the sport.

 

That being said; on the other hand, manufacturers could be tempted to this and use it for road going vehicles as well to offer their high end vehicles a high revving V10 engine. I think Ferrari would love that, for instance. But as said; it would likely be a niche. Just as it once was before.

 

 

 

 

So, what do you think? Is Ben Sulayem really opening a door to future V10s again?

[FullThrottleF1]

It will never happen for one reason - Noise regulations 

[ATM]

Before last month I would have said the main red line would have been the eco/environmental/CO2 agenda. Now that the world is going to sh!t, and the Green agenda with it, I'm sure they'll just ignore noise regulations if they choose to do so. Nowadays laws don't seem to matter all that much anyway.

Edited by ATM, 21 February 2025 - 11:06.

[PayasYouRace]

Have noise regulations changed that much since 2013?

Still, I’d rather see open engine architecture allowed, not just V10s, if a return to naturally aspirated engines is on the cards.

At least we’ve got the Aston Valkyrie to show what’s possible.

[FirstnameLastname]

Bring Back V10s!!

[PayasYouRace]

FirstnameLastname, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:11, said:

Bring Back V10s!!

And V8s, V12s, W12s and whatever else you think will work.

[Risil]

I wonder if the FIA will take any constructive steps to make this happen.

[midgrid]

I think you can interpret this statement in two ways:

1. This is genuinely what MBS wants to happen, and he's being as subtle as usual about expressing it.
2. It's not going to happen, but mentioning it drives social media engagement.

[pdac]

PayasYouRace, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:07, said:

Have noise regulations changed that much since 2013?

Still, I’d rather see open engine architecture allowed, not just V10s, if a return to naturally aspirated engines is on the cards.

At least we’ve got the Aston Valkyrie to show what’s possible.

 

In the UK here are lots of examples where people living beside a noise source have taken action and won - even though the noise source has not change or the noise output is lower than when they original purchased their property. Regulations may not change, but the way "acceptable" is interpreted seems have.

[midgrid]

pdac, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:16, said:

In the UK here are lots of examples where people living beside a noise source have taken action and won - even though the noise source has not change or the noise output is lower than when they original purchased their property. Regulations may not change, but the way "acceptable" is interpreted seems have.

 

And, of course, racing engines becoming louder again after a sustained period of being (comparatively) quieter would no doubt complicate things.

[PayasYouRace]

pdac, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:16, said:

In the UK here are lots of examples where people living beside a noise source have taken action and won - even though the noise source has not change or the noise output is lower than when they original purchased their property. Regulations may not change, but the way "acceptable" is interpreted seems have.

Yes and there’s a special place in hell reserved for those nimbys. F1 is more than just Silverstone too.

[balmybaldwin]

PayasYouRace, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:13, said:

And V8s, V12s, W12s and whatever else you think will work.

I want to see Wankel Rotary Hydrogen engines

[Henri Greuter]

MBS He has irritated a number of fans worldwide with his stance on the use of rude language by drivers  and how to react on that.

 

Now he's counteracting that by pleasing a number of those fans worldwide back with saying things they do want to hear and do support him in.

 

Perfect planning.

[Henri Greuter]

balmybaldwin, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:22, said:

I want to see Wankel Rotary Hydrogen engines

 

 

I presume it's more a matter of you wanting to hear them that actually seeing them. Because bodywork etc will prevent you're gonna see them.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 21 February 2025 - 11:26.

[Wuzak]

PayasYouRace, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:21, said:

Yes and there’s a special place in hell reserved for those nimbys. F1 is more than just Silverstone too.

 

It also happened at Monza.

[Wuzak]

I guess it depends on whether they want to use 200kg+ of fuel per race and have refuelling, or stay with 70-100kg of fuel that wil be used from 2026.

 

(The sustainable fuels have less energy content, so more fuel would be needed, and teh N/A engines are much less efficient than the V6 turbos.)

 

 

What would be a better use of their thinking would be to make the 2026 PUs lighter. That woudl be practical to improve the cars without ditching the efficiency goals.

 

If they could improve the sound by going to twin turbos, or a single turbo with a different exhaust configuration ( 6 into 1 before the turbo, for instance), or even changing to a V8, I4, V4 turbo layout. Increase the rpm where peak fuel flow occurs.

[jonpollak]

midgrid, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:15, said:

I think you can interpret this statement in two ways:

• This is genuinely what MBS wants to happen, and he's being as subtle as usual about expressing it.
• It's not going to happen, but mentioning it drives social media engagement.

He didn’t like hearing those BOOO’s at the livery unveiling.
So he’s gonna throw these idiots a bone…

Jp

[JimmyClark]

I find it quite ironic if governments want the world's premier motorsport in their locality - and advertise it as the 'loudest, fastest, best' etc. - but are worried about noise. 

 

But sadly as we move more races into cities, I guess it is an issue. 

 

But I don't have much time for these types - BRING ON THE NOISE. 

[cyclist]

midgrid, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:15, said:

 

I think you can interpret this statement in two ways:

1. This is genuinely what MBS wants to happen, and he's being as subtle as usual about expressing it.
2. It's not going to happen, but mentioning it drives social media engagement.

 

This is certainly a political play on F1. He is trying to play to the fanbase, thereby trying to gain more influence and weakening F1s position. Even if with the cost cap this idea is more feasible (with teams being profitable and not endless money pits like before) there is a reason F1 went into this direction, to keep its relevance to car manufacturers. But in the age of Trump where everything modern, green or gay is suspect, it is an easy goal to be scored to throw this out. I think that if this were ever to become a reality, F1 would slowly turn into Indycar as the interest of car companies and their tech would be gone.

Edited by cyclist, 21 February 2025 - 11:48.

[cbo]

PayasYouRace, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:13, said:

And V8s, V12s, W12s and whatever else you think will work.

I want 30 cylinder radials.... 😁

[DevilDare]

FullThrottleF1, on 21 Feb 2025 - 10:59, said:

It will never happen for one reason - Noise regulations 

 

NIMBYs will be the first against the wall.

[Beri]

On the matter of sound; Zandvoort, for instance, works with "geluidsdagen". Which is litterally translated to sounddays. Meaning there are a certain amount of days per year where Zandvoort can exceed X amount of decibels on average per X time. And they are free to allocate those days throughout the whole year. And this is the way they handle things already for a very long time. More than 20 years for sure.

Which is a very good way of doing things. Because that means that if Zandvoort opts for getting F1, 3 sounddays are retracted. Meaning they can host probably a couple of events less per year. Opening up the calendar with weekends without any activities where revenue is generated and thus perhaps dig into the profitability of running the track. Meaning Zandvoort really has to think twice if such an investment is worth it over the course of a certain period. Or if they simply dont give a damn and want to opt for it to get F1 to the circuit.

Edited by Beri, 21 February 2025 - 11:57.

[cbo]

Ideally let the teams use what they want for propulsion as long as they keep the amount of energy used at the current level or better.

I suspect, however, that we would end up with hybrid engines anyway.

[IrvTheSwerve]

balmybaldwin, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:22, said:

I want to see Wankel Rotary Hydrogen engines

Even if just to give MBS a nightmare with swearing in press conferences.

[TomNokoe]

In some ways I'd rather not go back, because in doing so it will reveal what has been lost the last 10+ years. Bonus if we also get rid of Pirelli.

I can imagine this horrible moment in my mind, it's 2030-something and the first race with V10 sustainable fuels and a new tyre supplier. The race finishes and everyone collectively realises, "What have we been doing for the last 20 years?"

[Beri]

TomNokoe, on 21 Feb 2025 - 12:10, said:

In some ways I'd rather not go back, because in doing so it will reveal what has been lost the last 10+ years. Bonus if we also get rid of Pirelli.

I can imagine this horrible moment in my mind, it's 2030-something and the first race with V10 sustainable fuels and a new tyre supplier. The race finishes and everyone collectively realises, "What have we been doing for the last 20 years?"

 

I vividly remember the first FP session starting in 2014 in Melbourne. Those engines were sooooo.. well.. non existant in terms of noise. I am still wondering "What are we doing" in terms of having accepted it as fans instead of boycot the sport in one way or the other.

[Henri Greuter]

TomNokoe, on 21 Feb 2025 - 12:10, said:

In some ways I'd rather not go back, because in doing so it will reveal what has been lost the last 10+ years. Bonus if we also get rid of Pirelli.

I can imagine this horrible moment in my mind, it's 2030-something and the first race with V10 sustainable fuels and a new tyre supplier. The race finishes and everyone collectively realises, "What have we been doing for the last 20 years?"

 

 

You are too harsh on Pirelli.

Building tires for the much lighter and much smaller cars of the past  is an entirely different matter than tires for the oversized heavy contraptions that are used in recent years which use entirely different principles for generating downforce.

 

Not to mention that Pirelli was told by the FIA to make the kind of tires they wanted to see to spice up the show they had in mind to present to us, race fans.

And that all because of them having messed up with guiding the development of the cars in decent directions and that had to be compensated with the tires as a tool to do so.

[Ivanhoe]

PayasYouRace, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:13, said:

And V8s, V12s, W12s and whatever else you think will work.

Don’t forget the H16!

[Alexis*27]

I don't see why we either have to have noisy NA V10s or quiet V6 hybrid turbos.

 

Ditch the turbo and have V10 or V8 hybrids.

 

What's the big problem? Best of both worlds. So what if we go down to 700hp.

[Alexis*27]

Beri, on 21 Feb 2025 - 12:18, said:

I vividly remember the first FP session starting in 2014 in Melbourne. Those engines were sooooo.. well.. non existant in terms of noise. I am still wondering "What are we doing" in terms of having accepted it as fans instead of boycot the sport in one way or the other.

 

This is exactly why I haven't been to a GP since. Without the noise I'd just be sitting there disappointed having forked out £300.

[BobbyRicky]

The V10's sound like total crap. No need to go back to those moronic things unless you want the cars getting bigger once more or a refueling comeback.

[Bendo]

More hot air comes out of his mouth than out of the engines.

Given engine regs are changing next year it isn't going to happen any time soon.

MBS would be better of dealing with the corruption at the FIA that is rife under his watch than getting cheap sound bites in.

[Afterburner]

Well, what are you waiting for MBS? Put your money where your mouth is.

And to those who say the sound doesn’t matter: look at the reaction to any video discussing the Cadillac GTP’s V8 or the Aston Martin Valkyrie’s V12. Sometimes you just gotta give the people what they want.

[JHSingo]

BobbyRicky, on 21 Feb 2025 - 12:50, said:

The V10's sound like total crap. No need to go back to those moronic things unless you want the cars getting bigger once more or a refueling comeback.

 

How do you work that out? The V10 cars of the late 90s-early 2000s look tiny when you see them next to this era's cars. 

[pup]

midgrid, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:15, said:

I think you can interpret this statement in two ways:

• This is genuinely what MBS wants to happen, and he's being as subtle as usual about expressing it.
• It's not going to happen, but mentioning it drives social media engagement.

3. He has no ideas and just repeats whatever someone recently said to him.

[juicy sushi]

I think it'll never happen in a manufacturer run era.  Neat idea, but I just don't see it coming to pass.  

[Henri Greuter]

JHSingo, on 21 Feb 2025 - 13:24, said:

How do you work that out? The V10 cars of the late 90s-early 2000s look tiny when you see them next to this era's cars. 

 

 

The cars of this era have become so long due to the inventions and application of the aerodynamics. If really necessary it is easy to make them much and much shorter by way more use of the area next to the cocpit and engine above the floor. Using the sidepods for way more than only storing radiators, sme small equipment etc. But because of their primary function related with the aerodynamics they have contributed to the length of the car. In the past you had the gearbox directly attached to the engine, nowadays there is a spacer in between them to extend the wheelbase in order to optimise the aero.

 

I don't think that using a V10 automatically will lead to longer cars, the spacer between gearbox and engine can be reduced in length if necessary. Unless refuelling is forbidden because then you're gonna need a way larger fuel tank.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 21 February 2025 - 13:39.

[Ruusperi]

TomNokoe, on 21 Feb 2025 - 12:10, said:

In some ways I'd rather not go back, because in doing so it will reveal what has been lost the last 10+ years. Bonus if we also get rid of Pirelli.

I can imagine this horrible moment in my mind, it's 2030-something and the first race with V10 sustainable fuels and a new tyre supplier. The race finishes and everyone collectively realises, "What have we been doing for the last 20 years?"

I'm willing to take that risk of regret. It's a sign of wisdom to admit they were wrong the whole time.

[Red5ive]

pdac, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:16, said:

In the UK here are lots of examples where people living beside a noise source have taken action and won - even though the noise source has not change or the noise output is lower than when they original purchased their property. Regulations may not change, but the way "acceptable" is interpreted seems have.

 

 

They have run V10's at Silverstone and Goodwood throughout the time since they were dropped from F1 - so  I think "noise regulations" is a bit of a red herring.

[Ben1445]

I think sustainable fuels are in real danger of becoming motorsport’s new tobacco money.

Did tobacco companies fund motorsport because they cared about racing? Not really, it was mostly about brand visibility and exploiting peoples dependance on an addictive and harmful substance to maximise their profits. Hold that thought.

There is a high liklihood of fuel companies being willing to pay hundreds of millions to fund sustainable fuel ICE motorsport programmes. They are already much of the way there. Of course they could collectively fund a grid of sustainable fuelled V10 F1 cars if they wanted to. But why would they want to?

It is not because sustainable fuels are a silver bullet to all of our climate and energy woes. Look it up yourself if you like - research paper after research paper will tell you that they are highly energy intensive to make and global production can only scale so far, so fast. That’s not to say it isn’t an incredibly useful decarbonisation tool, but it is to say that demand is probably going to massively outstrip realistic supply. That means painfully high prices at best, and an all out energy crisis at worst.

The best route then is to probably still to produce as much sustainable fuel as possible but to prioritise use in essential sectors which there is no practical alternative. For the other sectors where there are alternatives, you need to lower demand for these fuels as much as you can. The automotive sector largely falls into this latter category, and whilst doesn’t necessarily mean the end of ICE use altogether, it does mean a seismic change in the platforms and systems we deploy them in.

But… what if, as a fuel company, you can get your sustainable fuel branding firmly associated with a global mega-sport like F1 with a sustainable fuelled V10 powered car, and tell the world that this is a great, easy solution? It makes for a very compelling and comforting narrative. You can say that this means no one needs to worry about making major changes to how we set up our transport systems or our vehicle regulations… and through that you end up baking in a systemic dependance on combustion fuels which sustainable fuels alone cannot meet anywhere near quickly enough. So what do they then suggest we ‘temporarily’ fill that gap with? Fossil fuels.

‘Who cares if fossil fuels use is wrecking our climate, you are dependant on it and we want to profit from that’.

Perhaps this is indeed the motorsport trend of the future. Perhaps we will see some quite fantastical racing cars wowing crowds by going very fast and making cool sounds doing so. Maybe we shouldn’t care about it too much. Maybe there is just too much fun to be had…

But there is that underlying dark side to all this.

[lewislorenzo]

MBS glazing here

[mclarensmps]

Even though it's not going to happen, I got excited at the prospect once more, since I mentioned this in my notes in the F1 Fan survey that races aren't worth going to with the current engine formula sound

[lustigson]

If this talk of V10s is one's idea of "sense", I'm afraid to ask for their views on nonsense.   

[Gravelngrass]

As I have said many times here, until F1 divorces transportation relevance, it’ll continue to worsen as a purely racing spectacle. Racing already is, and will continue to become, largely road-irrelevant. New generations don’t even want to own cars anymore and transportation is increasingly done using public means such as buses and trains. Furthermore, the era of the self-driving car is near.
F1 has got to find the way to exist purely as a show where racing and driver talent are the focus, a sport if you will, just like football, basketball or any other successful sporting event. Only when it liberates itself from the manufacturer interests will it have a chance to exist as an activity that is enjoyable and worthwhile on and for itself.

[#99]

DevilDare, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:54, said:

NIMBYs will be the first against the wall.

Blindfold, last fag, BOP BOP BOP

[Dalton007]

Isn't F1 about innovation? V10s are done, it doesn't make sense for F1 to go back in time unless they can marry it to modern tech. 

[Pingguest]

OK, even prior the introduction the next generation of power units, stakeholders are already discussing new engine regulations. What does that say about the coming, 2026 power units?

[CoolBreeze]

too much of snowflakes around for V10s to happen again. Luckily, i witnessed it many times in person.

[STIGG]

Henri Greuter, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:24, said:

MBS He has irritated a number of fans worldwide with his stance on the use of rude language by drivers and how to react on that.

Now he's counteracting that by pleasing a number of those fans worldwide back with saying things they do want to hear and do support him in.

Perfect planning.

100% this. Coming a few days after the FIA gets booed in London, I don’t think this is anything more that a reaction to that in order to try and garner some favour amongst fans. There’s no way that having changed the rules for 2026 to attract manufacturers that this is a serious consideration.

[balmybaldwin]

Henri Greuter, on 21 Feb 2025 - 11:26, said:

I presume it's more a matter of you wanting to hear them that actually seeing them. Because bodywork etc will prevent you're gonna see them.

Well I can see what a v6 turbo hybrid looks like.

 

No, it's more the development direction and the freedom to experiment in propulsion design that I'm interested in. I don't understand this fixation on having identical engines. Give them a max amount of fuel/energy and let them figure out if a V6 turbo, a v10 NA or rotary or something else is the most efficient way to generate the power needed for the length of a race