738 replies to this topic

[Lazy]

What would really improve the show, far more than V10s, is commentators as good as Moto GP

[Wuzak]

 

So, it seems, the ERS is the problem. And teh dumb "50/50" power split, though it never was the case.

[Nobody]

Fixing a problem of cost and complexity with something even more complex and costly, classic F1 move

[MRX94]

So losing Audi (and potentially Honda, don't see either being interested in a retro NA engine) for the potential return of Cosworth powering a few backmarker teams, seems like a great trade.

[JHSingo]

Fixing a problem of cost and complexity with something even more complex and costly, classic F1 move

 

Since when has a V10 been more complicated and costly than a hybrid turbo engine? 

 

So losing Audi (and potentially Honda, don't see either being interested in a retro NA engine) for the potential return of Cosworth powering a few backmarker teams, seems like a great trade.

 

Providing smaller teams with a cheaper and readily available engine in the eventuality that two manufacturers who have a reputation for quitting at short notice decide to give up again sounds like a sensible move to me.

 

Honda has already quit once (and come back) in recent years, whereas Audi's 'commitment' to the sport has looked pretty shaky pretty much since the day they announced their programme and they realised just how expensive it would prove to be. 

Catering to manufacturers when times are good is fine. The problem is those times won't last forever. Having an expensive engine formula that is so heavily dependent on manufacturer involvement (at a time when the global automotive industry is going through massive change) to keep the show on the road is spectacularly short-sighted. 

Edited by JHSingo, Yesterday, 09:23.

[MRX94]

Providing smaller teams with a cheaper and readily available engine in the eventuality that two manufacturers who have a reputation for quitting at short notice decide to give up again sounds like a sensible move to me.

 

Honda has already quit once (and come back) in recent years, whereas Audi's 'commitment' to the sport has looked pretty shaky pretty much since the day they announced their programme and they realised just how expensive it would prove to be. 

Catering to manufacturers when times are good is fine. The problem is those times won't last forever. Having an expensive engine formula that is so heavily dependent on manufacturer involvement (at a time when the global automotive industry is going through massive change) to keep the show on the road is spectacularly short-sighted. 

Seems a bit counter-productive to me to protect against a potential manufacturer exodus by essentially telling one of them to "piss off", in the case of Audi. The more manufacturers there are, the less of a chance we have of there being a situation were there aren't enough engines for the entire grid. 

[Nobody]

Since when has a V10 been more complicated and costly than a hybrid turbo engine?

Nah I meant the '26 regs

[Henri Greuter]

I still think it to be unreal to realize that more than a year ago and longer there were worries about the the new engine formula and those not being taken as serious  as they seem to be taken nowadays.

Nowadays so serious that it even leads to a cancellation of the very same engines formula that had been made to be retained in that very same period of time, and for which the engine builders had to keep spending millions and millions ont o.

And now all of a sudden, within onths bfoer the rules were to be valid they can be wiped away after all?

 

 

That alone is simply unbelievable to imagine, no matter the subject of the rules/formulas in question.

Edited by Henri Greuter, Yesterday, 09:55.

[Wuzak]

I still think it to be unreal to realize that more than a year ago and longer there were worries about the the new engine formula and those not being taken as serious  as they seem to be taken nowadays.

Nowadays so serious that it even leads to a cancellation of the very same engines formula that had been made to be retained in that very same period of time, and for which the engine builders had to keep spending millions and millions ont o.

And now all of a sudden, within onths bfoer the rules were to be valid they can be wiped away after all?

 

 

That alone is simply unbelievable to imagine, no matter the subject of the rules/formulas in question.

 

It is quite evident in the chassis regulations that the 2026 PU was weak.

 

With the reduction of power at high speed they needed to have active aero to compensate.

 

And the whole system weighing within a kg or two of the current PU, which can sustain the power for longer, is stupid.

[MRX94]

I still think it to be unreal to realize that more than a year ago and longer there were worries about the the new engine formula and those not being taken as serious  as they seem to be taken nowadays.

Nowadays so serious that it even leads to a cancellation of the very same engines formula that had been made to be retained in that very same period of time, and for which the engine builders had to keep spending millions and millions ont o.

And now all of a sudden, within onths bfoer the rules were to be valid they can be wiped away after all?

 

 

That alone is simply unbelievable to imagine, no matter the subject of the rules/formulas in question.

It all seems a bit suspect to me. Like that video above saying that the batteries make up the apparently huge cost of the new engines. It can't be the engines of course, since those are the same 1.6 V6 units but simplified in terms of energy recovery, so it must be the batteries. But lithium-based batteries are nothing special or hugely expensive, Formula E manages to use them on a scale far greater than F1, with shoestring budgets at that. 

And costs were not the concern with these new power units before, it was always the performance. Seems a bit fishy that all of a sudden they've become prohibitively expensive compared to the cheap and cheerful V10s.

[pdac]

Since when has a V10 been more complicated and costly than a hybrid turbo engine? 

 

 

Providing smaller teams with a cheaper and readily available engine in the eventuality that two manufacturers who have a reputation for quitting at short notice decide to give up again sounds like a sensible move to me.

 

Honda has already quit once (and come back) in recent years, whereas Audi's 'commitment' to the sport has looked pretty shaky pretty much since the day they announced their programme and they realised just how expensive it would prove to be. 

Catering to manufacturers when times are good is fine. The problem is those times won't last forever. Having an expensive engine formula that is so heavily dependent on manufacturer involvement (at a time when the global automotive industry is going through massive change) to keep the show on the road is spectacularly short-sighted. 

 

Since the introduction of the budget cap, things are fine for all teams. No one is struggling anymore with overall finances. Now, the only struggle is to keep within the cost cap.

[JHSingo]

Since the introduction of the budget cap, things are fine for all teams. No one is struggling anymore with overall finances. Now, the only struggle is to keep within the cost cap.

 

They are now. That's not to say they always will be. Not wishing to drag this topic into a political discussion, but can anyone predict with any great confidence what the financial situation is going to be over the next four years at least?

The German automotive sector isn't in the best shape already, and there's bound to be some manufacturers that are forced to curtain expensive motorsport programmes in the next few years.
 

[Wuzak]

It all seems a bit suspect to me. Like that video above saying that the batteries make up the apparently huge cost of the new engines. It can't be the engines of course, since those are the same 1.6 V6 units but simplified in terms of energy recovery, so it must be the batteries. But lithium-based batteries are nothing special or hugely expensive, Formula E manages to use them on a scale far greater than F1, with shoestring budgets at that. 

And costs were not the concern with these new power units before, it was always the performance. Seems a bit fishy that all of a sudden they've become prohibitively expensive compared to the cheap and cheerful V10s.

 

I suspect it has to do with the much higher rates or charging and discharging and achieving the required durability while weighing the same as the current battery.

[pdac]

They are now. That's not to say they always will be. Not wishing to drag this topic into a political discussion, but can anyone predict with any great confidence what the financial situation is going to be over the next four years at least?

The German automotive sector isn't in the best shape already, and there's bound to be some manufacturers that are forced to curtain expensive motorsport programmes in the next few years.
 

 

If F1 teams end up struggling financially in the coming years, it won't be the cost of the PU that they will be worried about.

[Joseki]

Honda is straight up against any not hybrid engine formula, as confirmed today. Motorsport Italy has asked HRC CEO Watanabe:

"As far as Honda is concerned, our reason for entering F1 again is electrification and (the type of) powertrains."

 

https://it.motorspor...bridi/10709030/

 

 

Edited by Joseki, Yesterday, 12:29.

[pup]

The nostalgia is strong with this idea, but it's so unfathomably impractical that it will never progress beyond a pipe dream.

 

V10's at anywhere near the power of today's engines would require lifting the fuel rate restrictions and lifting the rev restrictions, which would require lifting the engine and component restrictions and reintroduction of refueling.  It would be massively expensive and it ain't gone happen.

 

Also, no one really cares.

[PayasYouRace]

The nostalgia is strong with this idea, but it's so unfathomably impractical that it will never progress beyond a pipe dream.

V10's at anywhere near the power of today's engines would require lifting the fuel rate restrictions and lifting the rev restrictions, which would require lifting the engine and component restrictions and reintroduction of refueling. It would be massively expensive and it ain't gone happen.

Also, no one really cares.

Never really understood this “we could change the rules but that will require changing the rules” argument.

[RedRabbit]

Electrical grids are being upgraded regardless of EVs, because of the massive increase in intermittent power generation like wind and solar, grids will have to be able to handle huge amounts of energy during windy and sunny summer days.
The technology for EV adoption at a mass scale already exists, it's just a question of investing the money to build the infrastructure. It's already happening in Norway (90% of new cars sold are EVs).

I have news for you. Europe is not the world. We drive cars in other continents, and in South Africa there is zero chance the grid will cope. It doesn't cope now, with scheduled blackouts, or loadshedding, a daily occurrence since 2007

[RedRabbit]

Continuing with a formula that's less advanced than a mass production passenger car seems against the whole idea of a prototype series.

There is no single solution to mobility in the future so why not use F1 to accelerate development of synthetic fuel?

[pup]

Never really understood this “we could change the rules but that will require changing the rules” argument.

 

A short-sighted argument for a short-sighted idea.

 

Changing the rules isn't the problem.  The implications of changing the rules are the problem.  

 

If you want V10's, refueling, single race engines and unlimited budgets, you'll need to just watch historic races, because that's the only way you're going to get it.  

 

Just a reminder that only 81 people, or 0.0000093% of fans have signed the V10 petition.  No one cares.  This is a distraction.  

Edited by pup, Yesterday, 14:22.

[Ruusperi]

 

Just a reminder that only 81 people, or 0.0000093% of fans have signed the V10 petition.  No one cares.  This is a distraction.  

What petition? Where? I would sign it a trillion times.

[Lazy]

What petition? Where? I would sign it a trillion times.

That's the only way it will get any votes.

[pup]

What petition? Where? I would sign it a trillion times.

https://www.change.o...0493045_en-AU:8

[zeph]

Fixing a problem of cost and complexity with something even more complex and costly, classic F1 move.

 

If you refer to the 2026 regs vs. current, that is incorrect. The new regulations simplify the power unit considerably, and were conceived specifically to facilitate the entry of new suppliers (like Audi).

 

The MGU-H is the most complex part of the current PU’s, it will be gone next year.

[Afterburner]

A short-sighted argument for a short-sighted idea.
 
Changing the rules isn't the problem.  The implications of changing the rules are the problem.  
 
If you want V10's, refueling, single race engines and unlimited budgets, you'll need to just watch historic races, because that's the only way you're going to get it.  
 
Just a reminder that only 81 people, or 0.0000093% of fans have signed the V10 petition.  No one cares.  This is a distraction.

Tossing out a petition derisively originated amongst a group of people who are not broadly in support of something as an example of how there isn't support for it sounds like a short-sighted argument for a short-sighted idea. Start posting that petition in places where people are amicable to V10s and watch how quickly the signatures stack up.

"Hahaha it will never happen" is something I've heard before in politics.

[F1Lurker]

If you refer to the 2026 regs vs. current, that is incorrect. The new regulations simplify the power unit considerably, and were conceived specifically to facilitate the entry of new suppliers (like Audi).

The MGU-H is the most complex part of the current PU’s, it will be gone next year.

Watch the video posted by Wuzak.

[pup]

Tossing out a petition derisively originated amongst a group of people who are not broadly in support of something as an example of how there isn't support for it sounds like a short-sighted argument for a short-sighted idea. Start posting that petition in places where people are amicable to V10s and watch how quickly the signatures stack up.

"Hahaha it will never happen" is something I've heard before in politics.

Huh?

[F1 Mike]

https://www.change.o...0493045_en-AU:8

What's the point in having a petition if nobody knows it exists?

[pup]

What's the point in having a petition if nobody knows it exists?

I anoint you the V10 evangelist. Go, my son. Spread the word.

Edited by pup, Today, 01:22.

[kumo7]

Honda is straight up against any not hybrid engine formula, as confirmed today. Motorsport Italy has asked HRC CEO Watanabe:

"As far as Honda is concerned, our reason for entering F1 again is electrification and (the type of) powertrains."

 

https://it.motorspor...bridi/10709030/

 

This is a proper case that FIA management deviously challenging the kingdom of engineers. 

While Engineers strictly plan and plot the money and effects, the management goes straight in to his (own) future prospects.

 

Going to V10 isn't something fan could worry about. What fan can worry about is a large degrading of the qualities of Formula 1. Patched up V10 will not produce racing at 360-kph nor overtaking. I expects cars will be doing its own processions. To go back to proper V10, it must be plotted and made the body work rules aligned. 

[Ultravox]

A short-sighted argument for a short-sighted idea.

 

Changing the rules isn't the problem.  The implications of changing the rules are the problem.  

 

If you want V10's, refueling, single race engines and unlimited budgets, you'll need to just watch historic races, because that's the only way you're going to get it.  

 

Just a reminder that only 81 people, or 0.0000093% of fans have signed the V10 petition.  No one cares.  This is a distraction.  

 

Firstly you don't need refueling for V10s. they raced V12s without refueling back in the day with far less efficient engines. Secondly, the biggest criticism of the sport since 2014 is the sound sucks and fans miss the screaming v8s/V10s so your claim nobody cares does not fit with reality.

[Stephane]

More than half of current fans were'nt probably there during the V10 era

[Ultravox]

More than half of current fans were'nt probably there during the V10 era

 

And that means they would not prefer the screaming engines from that era? I'm sure they have seen videos of that era.

[Stephane]

Of course they can prefer it. But missing it is a bit of a stretch.

[kumo7]

And that means they would not prefer the screaming engines from that era? I'm sure they have seen videos of that era.

 

Like many says, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

MBS should stop talking nonesense, and give numbers. Current PU runt at 54% efficiency at its peak. Just say V10 with e-fuels can surpass this number in one ways or the other. 

[F1Lurker]

Actually, the unexpected global trade war will have a gigantic impact on automakers. I expect some of these automakers to fail or dramatically scale back as going concerns.

V10s are even more likely to be implemented and I won't be surprised if the 2026 PU regulations are scrapped and V10s come in by 2027 or 2028.

[SenorSjon]

https://www.change.o...0493045_en-AU:8

 

1) nobody know that exists

2) change.org petitions are notorious for not changing anything

3) v10's are already discussed by the brass, no need for a petition.

[RedRabbit]

Actually, the unexpected global trade war will have a gigantic impact on automakers. I expect some of these automakers to fail or dramatically scale back as going concerns.

V10s are even more likely to be implemented and I won't be surprised if the 2026 PU regulations are scrapped and V10s come in by 2027 or 2028.

Wildly OT but a trade war is about the most stupid thing I may have ever heard and really solidifies that modern society has little to no need for politicians.

[RedRabbit]

Like many says, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
MBS should stop talking nonesense, and give numbers. Current PU runt at 54% efficiency at its peak. Just say V10 with e-fuels can surpass this number in one ways or the other.

New V10s will absolutely be more efficient, but the main development will be for synthetic fuel. Using a V10 is just an idea to firmly put F1 as the premium race series.