97 replies to this topic

[pacificquay]

A while back there was a direction to teams that the car numbers needed to be more visible.

 

Yet over the last few years we've seen stupid fonts, overlapping numbers, poorly contrasting colours - and this year they seem on many cars to have got smaller again.

 

Mercedes numbers on the side are particularly tiny, while Gasly's number 10 is in a stupidly stylised typeface that looks like it is peeling off.

 

Time to clamp down!

[noikeee]

I'd rather fine them for this than for swearing, that's for sure. For ****s sake.

[PayasYouRace]

It almost seems to have become tradition to make the numbers as hard as possible to see in F1. We’ve seen a few pretty stupid locations over the years (top of the front wing seemed popular, going right back to the 80s).

Other series don’t seem to have any problems mandating number placement and size. I don’t think it’s quite necessary to go the sports car route of standardised number boxes on every car, but the IndyCar/NASCAR route surely is possible.

Other series aren’t immune from this though. I thought touring cars were pretty good lately, with many series adopting large numbers on the windscreens and side windows, which while obviously not possible in F1, is a good neutral solution that doesn’t interfere with the livery. Then I saw the current Aussie Supercars version of it, with pathetically tiny numbers in the sun screen.

[Beri]

Teams should get it together and play ball to the fans and the rules, before uncle Ben is coming up with the idea of old Le Mans styled numbering in a uniform font. Which didnt look too bad, to be fair. But shouldnt have its place in modern F1.

 

[OvDrone]

Was watching F1 testing highlights on the BIG SCREEN and still couldn’t make out which damn Williams I was seeing for like 3 minutes.

It’s like they are ashamed of numbers and there is so much unused space in most liveries to make them pop cohesively.

[pdac]

It is really simple ... the FIA mandate the exact size, appearance and location of the numbers. I'd prefer black numbers in a white circle, using a sans-serif font. Stick one in the centre of the nose and one on each sidepod. Make the circule as big as can be accommodated.

Edited by pdac, 27 February 2025 - 13:40.

[JHSingo]

Given all the information that's now available to fans at a track (live timing, big screens etc) - is being able to see a driver number even that important anymore?

[PayasYouRace]

Given all the information that's now available to fans at a track (live timing, big screens etc) - is being able to see a driver number even that important anymore?

Yes.

Just consider how often Crofty mistakes teammates for each other. If you’re lucky enough to have live timing at the track, you still have to confirm what you’re seeing in front of you is what’s shown on the app, and the big screens suffer from the same problem viewers have at home. You cut to a car and if it doesn’t immediately have a graphic on screen, you have to figure out who you’re looking at. Sometimes in qualifying there are up to three names with timers on screen, so how do you know who you’re watching?

The worst one is when you see a car having had a major accident, and you want to instantly know who you’re looking at, out of concern for the driver.

I don’t think there’s any reason to not have instantly recognisable markings on each car, so you don’t have to refer to something else so work out who you’re looking at. This applies to even the most casual fans.

Large numbers in contrasting colours on the nose and on the sides (be it engine cover, side pod or wing) cover that requirement easily.

[pdac]

Given all the information that's now available to fans at a track (live timing, big screens etc) - is being able to see a driver number even that important anymore?

 

You could extrapolate that and ask why the cars have numbers anyway - each can be identified by the team colours and the person driving it (or just have team car A and team car B - you could even just paint the wheel rims a different colour for each car).

Edited by pdac, 27 February 2025 - 15:25.

[revmeister]

Well, if you know which team your favourite driver drives for, the only other thing you need to know, is the colour of their air box winglet, chartreuse or black. If you don't even know that, why would you care?

Edited by revmeister, 28 February 2025 - 00:45.

[ensign14]

Given all the information that's now available to fans at a track (live timing, big screens etc) - is being able to see a driver number even that important anymore?

I don't see the logic in trying to make a sport available and accessible to as large an audience as possible, while making it harder and harder for the casual interested spectator to work out what the **** is going on.

 

It's not rocket science.  A ****ing huge number is THE best way to ID a driver,  Helmet designs are now produced by feeding geese ExLax laced with food colouring and letting them **** in a wind tunnel.  And even if you can work it out, it's buried under a halo and sponsors.  You're not going to have access to all transponders at all times.  The only other option would be the three-letter code - and that has the same issue as the number, only taking up more space. 

[BobbyRicky]

You guys need to clean your bifocals if you struggle to see the numbers on the current cars.

Peak "old man yells at cloud"-energy in this thread!

[Stephane]

I don't even bother to learn who has what number anyway.

[BRG]

On the bright side, at least the failure of teams to make their car numbers even slightly visible to the naked eye does mean that we avoid the deplorable NASCRAP practice of referring to cars by their number rather than by the driver's name.

[PayasYouRace]

This thread really drives home to me how some people approach F1 fandom. I can’t fathom not being interested in every driver on the grid and what number car they drive.

[Stephane]

This thread really drives home to me how some people approach F1 fandom. I can’t fathom not being interested in every driver on the grid and what number car they drive.

 

Not everyone sees everything the same way, welcome to adulthood.

Edited by Stephane, 28 February 2025 - 10:25.

[pacificquay]

This thread really drives home to me how some people approach F1 fandom. I can’t fathom not being interested in every driver on the grid and what number car they drive.

 

100 per-cent

[IrvTheSwerve]

The fluorescent/black camera thing is pants - I’ve no idea who is classified as the ‘first’ driver in a lot of teams - and I’m an F1 nut.

 

It’s become even more of an issue since the halo as you can’t really see the driver helmets any longer. It was normally pretty easy to distinguish team mates just by that. I see no problem with mandating a white circle with a black number somewhere - it doesn’t have to be a massive 50s/60s style one…as long as it’s clear.

[pdac]

Well, if you know which team your favourite driver drives for, the only other thing you need to know, is the colour of their air box winglet, chartreuse or black. If you don't even know that, why would you care?

 

What is this "favourite driver" concept?

[revmeister]

What is this "favourite driver" concept?

Oh, they are the guys who put their lives on the line, in a demonstration of race craft, skill, tenacity, and bravery. Without them, one may as well watch marble racing. In short they are the human element in this beautiful sport.

[sketchy2001]

Oh, they are the guys who put their lives on the line, in a demonstration of race craft, skill, tenacity, and bravery. Without them, one may as well watch marble racing. In short they are the human element in this beautiful sport.

 

Isn't that 'just' "a driver"?  Maybe address the "favourite" bit?

[IrvTheSwerve]

Oh, they are the guys who put their lives on the line, in a demonstration of race craft, skill, tenacity, and bravery. Without them, one may as well watch marble racing. In short they are the human element in this beautiful sport.

 

I don't have any favourite driver at the moment - and haven't for a long time. Maybe I should give up watching - although I do, rather weirdly, still enjoy it.

[sketchy2001]

You guys need to clean your bifocals if you struggle to see the numbers on the current cars.

Peak "old man yells at cloud"-energy in this thread!

 

Yes, very good - the "I'm alright Jack" argument.

 

IIRC (which I probably don't) there has been an endless discussion about how individual drivers can be identified and there is always this "well numbers don't matter because drivers have distinctive helmets" statement.  Then drivers insisted that they be allowed to wear a different design of helmet every race and we get "well a distinctive helmet doesn't matter as the cars are numbered".

 

It would seem that neither of these is true and the fan is left dependent on broadcasters to identify who is who, which is something they are absolutely great at...  

I guess we can no longer be trusted to follow the action on our own anymore ;-) 

[BobbyRicky]

Yes, very good - the "I'm alright Jack" argument.

 

IIRC (which I probably don't) there has been an endless discussion about how individual drivers can be identified and there is always this "well numbers don't matter because drivers have distinctive helmets" statement.  Then drivers insisted that they be allowed to wear a different design of helmet every race and we get "well a distinctive helmet doesn't matter as the cars are numbered".

 

It would seem that neither of these is true and the fan is left dependent on broadcasters to identify who is who, which is something they are absolutely great at...  

I guess we can no longer be trusted to follow the action on our own anymore ;-) 

 

How often does the viewer get confused by which driver is where during the race? At the start? Good luck trying to find a number in that huddle no matter how large it is. 

Identifying drivers by the t-cam color is quite simple (unless you are colorblind of course) if you know which driver has which color during the season (which again aint hard to find out for fans of the sport).

 

Casual viewers most likely doesnt have the faintest idea about which number driver x or y is racing with anyways, so mandating humongous numbers on the cars seems like a bit of a moot point. 

 

So, what i dont get is how someone could find it hard to track drivers in 2025 when the viewer has an absurd amount of tools available to do just that hence the "old man yells at clouds"-comment.

[PayasYouRace]

Oh, they are the guys who put their lives on the line, in a demonstration of race craft, skill, tenacity, and bravery. Without them, one may as well watch marble racing. In short they are the human element in this beautiful sport.

That’s a very good argument as to why one shouldn’t have a favourite. They’re all out there putting themselves at risk.

[sketchy2001]

How often does the viewer get confused by which driver is where during the race? At the start? Good luck trying to find a number in that huddle no matter how large it is. 

Identifying drivers by the t-cam color is quite simple (unless you are colorblind of course) if you know which driver has which color during the season (which again aint hard to find out for fans of the sport).

 

 

Oh no! I must have wasted the last 50-odd years of my life - All this time I wasn't a proper fan!

[Stephane]

i remember the old days when teams themselves had little things to differentiate the cars. Different colors on "HYPE" on the 97 Williams. Ligier with yellow headrest for Diniz.

 

Even last year, with a Ferrari wit white accent and the other with yellows. Hints are there, you just have to loook out for them.

 

 

 

 

In endurance racing, it's often the mirrors and/or windscreen stickers.

[Frood]

I’m surprised that the teams/FIA don’t allow the drivers to customise the halo colours as an extension of their helmet design. I seem to recall it happening a couple of times in F2/F3 in certain races over the last couple of years.

 

EDIT: Correa did it at Monaco a couple of years ago.

 

Edited by Frood, 28 February 2025 - 13:27.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I’m surprised that the teams/FIA don’t allow the drivers to customise the halo colours as an extension of their helmet design. I seem to recall it happening a couple of times in F2/F3 in certain races over the last couple of years.

 

EDIT: Correa did it at Monaco a couple of years ago.

 

 

Yeah, I said before that they should be able to customise the halo to distinguish the two drivers. I suppose the issue is 1) the cars could look rather garish and 2) the drivers change helmet designs so often.

[sketchy2001]

i remember the old days when teams themselves had little things to differentiate the cars. Different colors on "HYPE" on the 97 Williams. Ligier with yellow headrest for Diniz.

 

Even last year, with a Ferrari wit white accent and the other with yellows. Hints are there, you just have to loook out for them.

 

 

 

 

In endurance racing, it's often the mirrors and/or windscreen stickers.

 

For me, that is a problem.  Why am I required to find/learn/remember the arcane hints that teams put on some random part of the car when there is already supposed to be a simple, standard method to differentiate the cars? :-)

[Frood]

I guess it’s also prime advertising space with the T-cam, so the sponsors probably don’t like it either.

[IrvTheSwerve]

It almost seems to have become tradition to make the numbers as hard as possible to see in F1. We’ve seen a few pretty stupid locations over the years (top of the front wing seemed popular, going right back to the 80s).

Other series don’t seem to have any problems mandating number placement and size. I don’t think it’s quite necessary to go the sports car route of standardised number boxes on every car, but the IndyCar/NASCAR route surely is possible.

Other series aren’t immune from this though. I thought touring cars were pretty good lately, with many series adopting large numbers on the windscreens and side windows, which while obviously not possible in F1, is a good neutral solution that doesn’t interfere with the livery. Then I saw the current Aussie Supercars version of it, with pathetically tiny numbers in the sun screen.

 

I think it was pretty good when we had the airbox 'fin', some teams such as Mercedes and Ferrari made good use of it. I remember the last GP I went to (Spa '17), I was with my father who knows nothing about F1 except for the more famous driver names...it was really easy to tell him who Hamilton/Vettel/Kimi etc. were and it was really easy to see from trackside. Possibly not so much for head-on TV cameras, but we had the helmet colour to see then.

 

 

[Stephane]

For me, that is a problem.  Why am I required to find/learn/remember the arcane hints that teams put on some random part of the car when there is already supposed to be a simple, standard method to differentiate the cars? :-)

 

Because it's part of the fun. At least for me.

[IrvTheSwerve]

How often does the viewer get confused by which driver is where during the race? At the start? Good luck trying to find a number in that huddle no matter how large it is. 

Identifying drivers by the t-cam color is quite simple (unless you are colorblind of course) if you know which driver has which color during the season (which again aint hard to find out for fans of the sport).

 

 

In all seriousness I was thinking of this before my other post - maybe this should be taken into consideration - it is in other sports. For example, in rugby, Wales v Ireland is now never played in red v green for that very reason.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Because it's part of the fun. At least for me.

 

I think when it's more personalised, e.g. the Hype thing or coloured wing mirrors, it makes it easier the remember. When all teams have either one green/yellow or black T cam it makes it harder, IMO.

[sketchy2001]

Because it's part of the fun. At least for me.

 

But we are all individuals (cue mandatory film quote), literally no-one else is you ;-)

[ExFlagMan]

Given all the information that's now available to fans at a track (live timing, big screens etc) - is being able to see a driver number even that important anymore?

 

Pretty important if you are a trackside flag marshal once the pit stops start happening - seem to recall some on here getting really annoyed when someone blue flagged a forum favourite a few years ago.

[SenorSjon]

Given all the information that's now available to fans at a track (live timing, big screens etc) - is being able to see a driver number even that important anymore?

 

Yes, otherwise you could also look at the helmet... oh wait. They change those every other race and with the halo and headrest you see hardly anything. Some teams had drivers with the same top color on the helmet and no name/number on the halo, so the onboards were useless as well.

 

 

 

I’m surprised that the teams/FIA don’t allow the drivers to customise the halo colours as an extension of their helmet design. I seem to recall it happening a couple of times in F2/F3 in certain races over the last couple of years.

 

EDIT: Correa did it at Monaco a couple of years ago.

 

 

 

F2 does it up to 11 with different liveries between teammates depending on driver program. We even had multiple slightly different RB liveried cars from different teams last year.

[PayasYouRace]

So a question for the room. As fans of the sport, what do you lose by having the teams display their numbers more visibly? 

[PlatenGlass]

The fun of this thread.

[Sterzo]

So, what i dont get is how someone could find it hard to track drivers in 2025 when the viewer has an absurd amount of tools available to do just that hence the "old man yells at clouds"-comment.

 

Others of us don't get the logic of putting a number on a car and obscuring it.
 

[NewMrMe]

I don't see anything wrong with making numbers easier to see. It is the most obvious difference. Drivers now frequently change helmet designs and casual fans typically won't keep on top of that. Also, as has already been said, since the introduction of the halo, helmets have been more difficult to see.

 

That said, I do like some of the other little changes teams make to differentiate their cars. In their first stint in F1, Renault had one car with red numbers and the other with blue. Ferrari at one point had fluorescent yellow squares on the wings of one of their cars.

 

Edge case that shows the need for car numbers. Mario and Michael Andretti's time together as teammates at Newman-Haas in Indycar. They had the same helmet design and car livery.

[Stephane]

So a question for the room. As fans of the sport, what do you lose by having the teams display their numbers more visibly?

Nothing

[Sterzo]

.

Edited by Sterzo, 28 February 2025 - 16:33.

[pacificquay]

I think it was pretty good when we had the airbox 'fin', some teams such as Mercedes and Ferrari made good use of it. I remember the last GP I went to (Spa '17), I was with my father who knows nothing about F1 except for the more famous driver names...it was really easy to tell him who Hamilton/Vettel/Kimi etc. were and it was really easy to see from trackside. Possibly not so much for head-on TV cameras, but we had the helmet colour to see then.

 

 

 

At that point Mercedes had clear numbers in a sensible font.

 

Every year since they've been doing them in stupid overlapping fonts and non contrasting colours, while making them smaller.

[Rigoletto]

Mandate minimum size (big), font, colour and locations (nose, sidepods, engine covers and rear wings). One thing I haven't missed about F1 is how difficult they make what should be simple solutions.

[TheFish]

Cars should be slightly less identical to help differentiate between the drivers imo. Like when Merc had Lewis' number in red and George's in blue. Max should have his gold or orange, Lawson a contrasting colour, etc.

[pdac]

Cars should be slightly less identical to help differentiate between the drivers imo. Like when Merc had Lewis' number in red and George's in blue. Max should have his gold or orange, Lawson a contrasting colour, etc.

 

That's exactly what different numbers clearly visible on the cars would do.

[sketchy2001]

So a question for the room. As fans of the sport, what do you lose by having the teams display their numbers more visibly? 

 

I don't think the problem is number visibility so much as being able to differentiate cars/drivers.

Visible numbers would seem to be the easiest way to achieve this.

Pop quiz: "Red 5" - name the driver? 

 

Personally, I feel that I have lost something by having to waste time trying to find a unique feature on a car to determine what I am watching.

Obviously, I could just wait for the commentator to (maybe) tell me what I am actually looking.

 

 

 

[B Squared]

When I worked on-course for CART in the 1980s and early '90s, especially when I was Black flag captain, I never felt that I had the luxury of time to be looking for numbers. I made sure that I knew every car on visual sighting. When you had a situation like Mears in the yellow Pennzoil Penske and Al Unser in the yellow Hertz Penske, without the air screens at that time, you looked at the driver's helmet for positive ID. For the last 30 years I've applied that system to watching a race.