97 replies to this topic

[pdac]

When I worked on-course for CART in the 1980s and early '90s, especially when I was Black flag captain, I never felt that I had the luxury of time to be looking for numbers. I made sure that I knew every car on visual sighting. When you had a situation like Mears in the yellow Pennzoil Penske and Al Unser in the yellow Hertz Penske, without the air screens at that time, you looked at the driver's helmet for positive ID. For the last 30 years I've applied that system to watching a race.

 

I guess when all casual racing fans are put in the same position, they will probably do the same. But they are casual fans watching racing on TV at home. They are not obsessives that want or need to train themselves to recognise every car.

[pup]

I’ve been an f1 fan for 25 years now and can confidently say that, a) I couldn’t tell you a single driver number current or past, and
b) have never really had a problem telling which driver I was watching. I’ve always thought that if they really want the drivers to be easily identifiable, then they should just allow the teams to run two liveries.

[PayasYouRace]

I found the numbers of great help during yesterday’s Indycar race. First race of the season, lots of new liveries. Often the feed would cut to a car or a few cars in battle and Indycar aren’t great at showing a graphic to tell you who you’re watching. But they do have a timing tower with everyone number next to their name. So it was easy to just refer to that to see who as on screen. This was made easier by the numbers being large and in standard positions on the cars, though still sympathetic to the liveries.

And I still don’t understand why those of you who don’t use the numbers to identify who you’re watching have such a problem with this.

[oli4]

Would like the numbers to be illuminated (since there are a lot of night races) just like the le mans cars. Not only easy to see the numbers but looks rather cool too.

[Stephane]

I guess when all casual racing fans are put in the same position, they will probably do the same. But they are casual fans watching racing on TV at home. They are not obsessives that want or need to train themselves to recognise every car.

 

But do casual know the numbers ? I don't consider myself, and i don't know the numbers (maybe because they are, in fact, useless as not shown clearly on cars, the irony i guess)

[PayasYouRace]

But do casual know the numbers ? I don't consider myself, and i don't know the numbers (maybe because they are, in fact, useless as not shown clearly on cars, the irony i guess)

The TV graphics have generally incorporated the numbers alongside the driver names, though not in every graphic.

 

And of course for the last decade, one hasn’t had to learn many new numbers every season.

[SenorSjon]

The TV graphics have generally incorporated the numbers alongside the driver names, though not in every graphic.

 

And of course for the last decade, one hasn’t had to learn many new numbers every season.

 

So now the helmets change, but not the numbers. 

 

Too bad the numbers are about as big as the gaps in the timing tower on the IndyCar feed last night.

[PayasYouRace]

So now the helmets change, but not the numbers. 

 

Too bad the numbers are about as big as the gaps in the timing tower on the IndyCar feed last night.

Yes. That’s why we’re in this thread about why the numbers should be bigger.

[B Squared]

But do casual know the numbers ? I don't consider myself, and i don't know the numbers (maybe because they are, in fact, useless as not shown clearly on cars, the irony i guess)

Speaking of the casual fan, that is one of my main gripes about race broadcasting is that the announcers usually seem to accommodate the lowest common denominator of fans. In other words, if you're watching baseball, they don't explain the hit and run. If you're watching basketball, they don't go to an in studio basketball court to show you what the pick and roll is. Golf broadcasters don't feel they need to demonstrate the difference between a draw and a fade. I just would like to see the broadcasters talk to true race fans and if you have an interest in it as a casual fan, get on board and learn. Like I did, and probably most here.

[Stephane]

Speaking of the casual fan, that is one of my main gripes about race broadcasting is that the announcers usually seem to accommodate the lowest common denominator of fans. In other words, if you're watching baseball, they don't explain the hit and run. If you're watching basketball, they don't go to an in studio basketball court to show you what the pick and roll is. Golf broadcasters don't feel they need to demonstrate the difference between a draw and a fade. I just would like to see the broadcasters talk to true race fans and if you have an interest in it as a casual fan, get on board and learn. Like I did, and probably most here.

 

 

I have learnt the racing vocabulary so long ago i don't remember how i did. But i know i read loads of paper magazines at the times, so probably there. Now the casuals have the internet, much easier .

 

I am a casual NFL watchers, like 10 gamles a year, and that's how i learnt, a lot of wikipedia. I admit i am curious in life whatever the subject. I am not a real casual of anything for long.

[pdac]

Speaking of the casual fan, that is one of my main gripes about race broadcasting is that the announcers usually seem to accommodate the lowest common denominator of fans. In other words, if you're watching baseball, they don't explain the hit and run. If you're watching basketball, they don't go to an in studio basketball court to show you what the pick and roll is. Golf broadcasters don't feel they need to demonstrate the difference between a draw and a fade. I just would like to see the broadcasters talk to true race fans and if you have an interest in it as a casual fan, get on board and learn. Like I did, and probably most here.

 

Just a guess, but I would say the casual fans are quite a high number compared to other sports. F1 events typically only happen every 2 weeks. I also know of people who don't really watch all of the coverage - they turn on to watch the start and then come back an hour later so see how things are going and watch the finish. F1 followers are definitely different to those who follow other sports, I think. Only a guess, but I think it has something to do with it using machines rather than being humans and a few props.

Edited by pdac, 03 March 2025 - 15:26.

[Stephane]

On the other hand, you have to pay to watch in a lot of places. Not sure that many people are paying to watch casually

[PayasYouRace]

Just a guess, but I would say the casual fans are quite a high number compared to other sports. F1 events typically only happen every 2 weeks. I also know of people who don't really watch all of the coverage - they turn on to watch the start and then come back an hour later so see how things are going and watch the finish. F1 followers are definitely different to those who follow other sports, I think. Only a guess, but I think it has something to do with it using machines rather than being humans and a few props.

I think motorsports in general must have a much higher proportion of fans who haven’t played the sport for real than most sports. You don’t need to explain how football works to the average viewer because the average viewer has probably played some form of football. Same for most sports, I think. However motorsports are in the category of elite sports where much fewer people get to do it for real in any capacity, though I would bet sim racing has made that gap close.

 

I’d be interested to compare the level of explanation in F1 commentary to say, Americas Cup commentary.

[Sterzo]

A few random thoughts:

1. I have never met anyone who describes him or herself as a "casual fan". A concept so woolly as to be pointless.

2. I recognise some people don't look at car numbers. As it happens I like to, especially when watching at the circuit rather than on TV.

3. It's impossible to construct a rational argument in favour of placing illegible numbers on a car.

 

[pdac]

A few random thoughts:

1. I have never met anyone who describes him or herself as a "casual fan". A concept so woolly as to be pointless.

2. I recognise some people don't look at car numbers. As it happens I like to, especially when watching at the circuit rather than on TV.

3. It's impossible to construct a rational argument in favour of placing illegible numbers on a car.

 

1. A casual fan would never describe themselves as such. What they do do is watch the odd race out of interest or because there's nothing better to watch. They will be able to name names like Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen, but not much more. Some will even be surprised if you say that Vettel is no longer driving in F1. There's quite a few of them out there, I think.

2. All official communications from the FIA refer to car numbers rather than driver names. It would also help Croft, who always gets the two drivers in each team mixed up.

3. Absolutely. I think there has been some moaning from the teams about needing all of the visible space to sell to sponsors. But I think that's rubbish. Sponsors are either going to buy space on your car or not. If they are, and they are paying good money, they are going to compare what they are paying to what others are in terms of the relative size of their spot, not the absolute size.

[Stephane]

I don't think anyone said numbers must be invisible, in this thread.

Some, like myself, just say we don't absolutely need them. That's not the same.

[Sterzo]

I don't think anyone said numbers must be invisible, in this thread.

Some, like myself, just say we don't absolutely need them. That's not the same.

 

Agreed, but I sense - rightly or wrongly - that some think it's a non issue because they don't personally use them. Whereas I'd say if numbers are mandated, it follows they should be visible.
 

[August]

It’s kinda funny how F1 wanted to get drivers their personal numbers for marketing purposes, yet teams don’t see enough value in them to properly showcase them.

That being said, the numbers don’t really matter in F1 like they do in sports car racing (to refer to a car driven by multiple drivers) or IndyCar/NASCAR where they are used for the entrant championship. If teams aren’t willing to make the numbers more visible, then at least differentiate the designs of team cars enough to make it easier to know who’s driving the car. Are the colored camera bars anymore a thing?

[Fastpass75]

I tend to identify them by the camera colour. As long as you know your drivers and which is which you're okay. When they're doing 200mph past you on Hangar straight or Kemmel you don't really have time to even focus on a number.

[PayasYouRace]

I tended to find the T-cam colour system more useful prior to 2014 because then the drivers didn't have permanent numbers and the displaying of numbers was even worse than today. As back then teams tended to give their first driver the red camera, and their first driver was normally the one who had finished the previous season higher in the championship, it seemed easier to me to remember who was who.

 

Perhaps because of that, I tend to find it more confusing today. OK, it worked well that Mercedes were running Hamilton with the "second driver" yellow camera, as it matched his helmet and they added other yellow highlights (and the numbers were yellow too) to make a cohesive identifier. But I've also spent the past two seasons misidentifying Fernando Alonso and Lance Stroll because Daddy Stroll has ensured his baby gets the "first driver" black camera, and the actual top driver in the team, has the yellow one. If I need to arbitrarily learn who is who according to their camera, I might as well know which number each driver has (which I already know for the most part) and read of off the front of the car.

[IrvTheSwerve]

This will probably make some people angry - how about putting the three letter surname identifiers somewhere clear on the car, rather than making the numbers bigger? Easier to identify for everyone, experienced or new fans.

[PayasYouRace]

This will probably make some people angry - how about putting the three letter surname identifiers somewhere clear on the car, rather than making the numbers bigger? Easier to identify for everyone, experienced or new fans.

 

You mean like this?

 

 

 

It was allowed in 2017 when the rules were clarified. But it appears that has been taken out of the rules.

 

https://www.fia.com/..._2025-02-26.pdf

 

 

9) CAR LIVERY AND COMPETITION NUMBERS

9.1 Car Livery

a) The provisions of the Code relating to national colours shall not apply to the Championship.

 

b) Both cars entered by a Competitor must be presented in substantially the same livery at every Competition, any significant change to this livery during a Championship may only be made with the agreement of the FIA and the Commercial Rights Holder.

 

c) In order that the cars of each Competitor may be easily distinguished from one another whilst they are on the track, the on-board cameras located above the principal roll structure of the first car must remain as it is supplied to the Competitor and the second car must be predominantly fluorescent yellow.

 

d) The name or the emblem of the make of the car must appear on the front of the nose of the car and in either case be at least 25mm in its largest dimension.

 

e) The name of the driver must appear on the external bodywork of the car and be clearly legible.

 

f) Each car will carry the competition number of its driver as published by the FIA at the beginning of the Championship or the competition number that has been allocated to his replacement in accordance with Article 32.4c). This number must be clearly visible from the front of the car and on the driver’s crash helmet.

 

9.2 Competition Numbers

a) Prior to the start of the 2014 FIA Formula One World Championship competition numbers were permanently allocated to drivers by ballot, such numbers must then be used by that driver during every Formula One World Championship Competition he takes part in throughout his career in Formula 1.

 

b) A driver’s career in Formula 1 will be deemed to have ended if he does not participate in a Competition for two (2) entire consecutive Championships.

 

c) Any new drivers, either at the start of or during a Championship, will also be allocated a permanent competition number in the same way.

 

d) The only exception to this allocation process will be for the reigning World Champion who will have the option to use the number one. The competition number that was previously allocated to him will be reserved for him in subsequent Championship if he does not retain the title of World Champion.

 

I don't see why they can't have more specific rules about the numbers, exactly as they do for the car emblem in 9.1 d.

[Stephane]

I alos proposed this a few times in past threads.

 

 

No need then to learn the "driver+number" or "driver+camcolor" combination.

[pup]

This will probably make some people angry - how about putting the three letter surname identifiers somewhere clear on the car, rather than making the numbers bigger? Easier to identify for everyone, experienced or new fans.

Well, there’s a reason the three letter IDs came into existence, and why people tend to use them as shorthand for the drivers, but never their numbers, which is that despite the protestations, no one actually cares about the numbers.

It’s nostalgia and tradition and no more. I have no problem with their existence, but write them in Klingon and put them on the undersides of the front wing in eight point type and I wouldn’t care.

But again, if there is a problem with identifying the drivers - if - then by far the best solution is to allow the teams to run two liveries. It’s the next logical step from the one-off helmets and liveries we have now anyway.

Edited by pup, 05 March 2025 - 12:41.

[PayasYouRace]

Just checking pictures of the 2017 cars.

 

Cars which displayed only the number on the front and sides: Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull

 

Cars which displayed only the abbreviation on the sides and the number on the front: Force India, HAAS, McLaren

 

Cars which displayed both the number and the abbreviation on the sides and the number on the front: Renault, Sauber, Toro Rosso, Williams.

 

For 2018 it was back to numbers only.

[PayasYouRace]

Well, there’s a reason the three letter IDs came into existence, and why people tend to use them as shorthand for the drivers, but never their numbers, which is that despite the protestations, no one actually cares about the numbers.

It’s nostalgia and tradition and no more. I have no problem with their existence, but write them in Klingon and put them on the undersides of the front wing in eight point type and I wouldn’t care.

 

No, some of us do actually care, and we've commented as so in this very thread.

 

I don't see why those of us who do use the numbers should struggle more because people like you don't care.

[Stephane]

What'is in it to care about, really ?

[Sterzo]

What'is in it to care about, really ?

Since you care enough to ask, I find well-displayed numbers give me instant identification. Before anyone says "you can't go back to the old way", I'd point out they are clear on most categories of racing cars - F1 is the exception not the rule. And still, after 77 posts, no-one has come up with a good reason for sticking illegible numbers onto a car. Just: why would you?

 

[pup]

No, some of us do actually care, and we've commented as so in this very thread.

I don't see why those of us who do use the numbers should struggle more because people like you don't care.

Don't worry about me, I don’t want you to suffer. But I think things are as they are because those of you who want the numbers are a great minority. I suspect that most are like me, and really have no strong feelings either way, and as a result the numbers could disappear entirely and we’d probably not notice. And yes, part of the reason for that is the uselessness of the heavily stylized numbers.

In all seriousness, I’d say that if the sport wants to make the numbers a thing, they can’t be wimpy about it. If they wanted to make it work, then they have to go all the way with a sportscar style standardized font, size, background, and backlighting. That is, I think you have to make them so clear that their utility is unmistakable.

But I think doing that would have a heavy influence on the car design.

Edited by pup, 05 March 2025 - 14:14.

[opplock]

This battle was lost more than 40 years ago. I first got to see F1 live in 1981. Circuit commentators at Silverstone complained to FISA/FOCA et al about numbers being illegible and were told that larger numbers would reduce advertising space and they should learn to identify cars by driver helmet colours. That is no longer an option as many of them change helmets more often than they change their underwear. As another ex-flaggie has already said the rot gradually filtered down into club racing. 

[pdac]

This battle was lost more than 40 years ago. I first got to see F1 live in 1981. Circuit commentators at Silverstone complained to FISA/FOCA et al about numbers being illegible and were told that larger numbers would reduce advertising space and they should learn to identify cars by driver helmet colours. That is no longer an option as many of them change helmets more often than they change their underwear. As another ex-flaggie has already said the rot gradually filtered down into club racing. 

 

I guess the solution is to mandate more body area so that there will be more space to display the numbers without affecting the amount of space available for advertising.

 

(or just to call that argument bull***t)

[PayasYouRace]

Didn’t know Silverstone had visually impaired circuit commentators in 1981. The numbers were so obvious on those cars back then.

[Bleu]

In the early 1990s when I started watching F1, every team had side number on the rear wing endplate. Except Tyrrell, who had a number in the bargeboard.

 

[SenorSjon]

Well, at least it is a clear font with good contrast.

[ensign14]

Didn’t know Silverstone had visually impaired circuit commentators in 1981. The numbers were so obvious on those cars back then.

It was 1984 when it changed.  I remember Murray Walker being incandescent when a camera showed an abandoned Williams but there was no means of identifying whether it was Keke or Jacques because the number was secreted away.

 

Compare and contrast:

 

 

 

Way more space for a number on the 1984 Toleman...

[Gary Davies]

Here's what should be the mandated number visibility. No ifs, buts or whinges from teams or sponsors. Fixed. On to the next problem. 

 

[B Squared]

Gary, I like it. It should be that easy, but I'm afraid that the next complaint would be some wouldn't like the font.

[Gary Davies]

Well, I'm pretty easy going. Most are okay, but anyone using or advocating any of the Arial font family or Comic Sans should be dropped off on any of the Aleutian Islands with a tent and a large canister of gruel. No shortage of water... just melt the plentiful ice.

 

Oh, and anyone using those impenetrable German atrocities like Fraktur or Blackletter. Them too.

[FirstnameLastname]

This will probably make some people angry - how about putting the three letter surname identifiers somewhere clear on the car, rather than making the numbers bigger? Easier to identify for everyone, experienced or new fans.

I was ready to post this suggestion and then saw your post

With so many new/casual fans… just use the the same signifier as the TV coverage uses. The numbers are for the FIA but does the average viewer really care?

[Beri]

I was ready to post this suggestion and then saw your post
With so many new/casual fans… just use the the same signifier as the TV coverage uses. The numbers are for the FIA but does the average viewer really care?

Drivers care themselves. They brand their number as their identity. So yes; numbers do matter to drivers and thus also to fans.

[FirstnameLastname]

Drivers care themselves. They brand their number as their identity. So yes; numbers do matter to drivers and thus also to fans.

Just because it matters to the drivers, doesn’t mean it matters to the fans… *shrug*

Drivers maybe want to bag some more of those sweet sweet merch sales… but should that take precedence over viewers being able to see which car they are looking at, in the era of the Halo and Generic driver helmets

Actually on that point - drivers have plenty opportunity to distinguish themselves from the other drivers with their helmet design… yet seem to care very little in that regard.

[PayasYouRace]

It matters to the fans, though. Or do we not count?

[pup]

It matters to the fans, though. Or do we not count?

You count, just not well or else you’d realize how few of you there are.
😝

[Stephane]

Drivers care themselves. They brand their number as their identity. So yes; numbers do matter to drivers and thus also to fans.

 

They are forced to care, but then aren't helped by the team to show said number

[PayasYouRace]

Lewis Hamilton cares so much about his number he doesn’t even run the No.1 as a reigning champion. That’s not being forced to care.

[DamonHillOfBeans]

 You'll never beat McLaren's "David" and "Mika" livery. 

[pup]

You'll never beat McLaren's "David" and "Mika" livery.

Truth

[Bleu]

 You'll never beat McLaren's "David" and "Mika" livery. 

 

I recall there was once a warm-up session where DC had to take spare car which was set up for Mika, so both had cars with "Mika" text at the same time.