23 replies to this topic

[FullThrottleF1]

So Cadillac got confirmed today. Good news to get 2 extra seats in the sport. However, with this news and other news in the past year or so, it seems like every F1 team bar Williams and McLaren is now linked to a manufacturer. For me this is sad, having manufacturers I'm sure is great for newbie fans to connect. But for those of us who remember earlier times, I find this sad. I miss having genuine race teams, your Saubers, Force Indias etc. Am I alone?

[Mark A]

McLaren make cars....

[PayasYouRace]

Do you have any survey data or similar that suggests fans are cheering on the manufacturer teams?

 

Anyway, I think the premise of the OP is a bit false because all the current teams are genuine racing teams that for the most part happen to have been bought by a manufacturer who have put their name above the door.

 

Ferrari of course were racing cars before they started manufacturing road cars to support that activity. Racing is a still a core part of the business.

 

McLaren are a manufacturer, but like Ferrari long before them, the road car business supports the racing.

 

Mercedes just bought the genuine race team that was set up on Tyrrell’s entry by BAT. Alpine did the same but for the team that was once Toleman. Aston Martin are but the latest owners of Jordan (I always laugh when people consider Veejay’s ownership as some sort of genuine racing team, as if he wasn’t just a playboy millionaire plugging his companies). Audi are only doing the same for Sauber.

 

Red Bull’s teams aren’t manufacturer owned. Do engine partners now count as being a manufacturer?

 

Haas are an independent racing team, and so are Williams.

 

So yeah, I don’t really get the OP’s point.

 

Also, “classic race teams” were often directly run by manufacturers for many decades. The garagiste was a relatively modern phenomenon.

[KWSN - DSM]

I am not cheering for more manufacturer involvement, I am cheering for more teams - With Red Bull becoming a de-facto Manufacturer next season we will have.

 

Ferrari

Mercedes

Red Bull

Aston Martin

Audi

Cadillac

Alpine

 

That is 4 cars not getting points each race, Alpine have shown how not to run a factory entry, there is little indication Audi will be looking good in 2026 - How long will a board accept their cars costing a lot, delivering nothing, last season we had a garage team take the WCC, a team starting out as the favorite for both Drivers and Constructors champion 2025.

 

Manufacturer involvement is a bad thing for F1, not a good one - Make engines and sell them to independent teams, unless your name is Ferrari, then you do both.

[JimmyClark]

We probably had this disucssion around 2007/2008. Then the GFC happened, and the manufacturers went running. 

 

I fully expect another global crash to come soon, and we will be back to more privately-run teams. 

[FullThrottleF1]

I am not cheering for more manufacturer involvement, I am cheering for more teams - With Red Bull becoming a de-facto Manufacturer next season we will have.

 

Ferrari

Mercedes

Red Bull

Aston Martin

Audi

Cadillac

Alpine

 

That is 4 cars not getting points each race, Alpine have shown how not to run a factory entry, there is little indication Audi will be looking good in 2026 - How long will a board accept their cars costing a lot, delivering nothing, last season we had a garage team take the WCC, a team starting out as the favorite for both Drivers and Constructors champion 2025.

 

Manufacturer involvement is a bad thing for F1, not a good one - Make engines and sell them to independent teams, unless your name is Ferrari, then you do both.

My thoughts. But F1 wants to court the manufacturers seemingly oblivious to history 

[RedRabbit]

This is a tired argument. For as long as I remember, independent teams used pay drivers, were poorly organised, are the reason we have so little testing and changed ownership quite often.

Pointing at Williams or McLaren as shining examples just shows a lack of knowledge on those teams. Both were HEAVILY reliant on manufacturers in their most successful period, and even after in the 2000s.

The only fully independent team with any credentials and success in the last 30 years is Red Bull Racing.

[PlatenGlass]

I would hardly call Red Bull an independent team anyway. They are a big drinks company that decided to join F1 and buy out Stewart/Jaguar. It doesn't matter whether it's cars or drinks they manufacture. An independent team is an entity that sets itself up as a racing team, not a big company that decides to go racing.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 07 March 2025 - 20:39.

[ensign14]

I am not cheering for more manufacturer involvement, I am cheering for more teams - With Red Bull becoming a de-facto Manufacturer next season we will have.

 

Ferrari

Mercedes

Red Bull

Aston Martin

Audi

Cadillac

Alpine

 

It depends on your perspective.  You could also say right now we have:

• McLaren
• Ferrari
• Stewart
• Tyrrell
• Toleman
• Williams
• Jordan
• Sauber
• Minardi
• Haas

Just that a few of them have special title sponsorship deals.

[KWSN - DSM]

It depends on your perspective.  You could also say right now we have:

• McLaren
• Ferrari
• Stewart
• Tyrrell
• Toleman
• Williams
• Jordan
• Sauber
• Minardi
• Haas

Just that a few of them have special title sponsorship deals.

 

But that is really not the case right? As said above, various Manufacturers have paid to have their name on the door, they present the teams as 'their cars', the board see the money spend, Mercedes Board see Mercedes money spend on Mercedes, there will be people on that board who have no idea what or who Tyrrel was.

 

What is being sold is a perception, what is being sold is technology, innovation - At a (huge) cost for the particular Manufacturers.

 

We the fans can ruminate over what was, I still miss Osella, Minardi, Arrows and Ligier - But they are no more in this corporate world.

 

Each Grand Prix the re can be 1 winner, there will be cars not even scoring points, get it wrong and a team can look at presumably 5 years of Alpine like performance, which is not sustainable for multiple teams.

[jonpollak]

I cheer for drivers … nothing else.
Jp

[ensign14]

But that is really not the case right? As said above, various Manufacturers have paid to have their name on the door, they present the teams as 'their cars', the board see the money spend, Mercedes Board see Mercedes money spend on Mercedes, there will be people on that board who have no idea what or who Tyrrel was.

I think it's more the case than not.  Are Red Bulls built in Thailand or Milton Keynes?

[FullThrottleF1]

We probably had this disucssion around 2007/2008. Then the GFC happened, and the manufacturers went running.

I fully expect another global crash to come soon, and we will be back to more privately-run teams.

I hope so, but maybe I'm old school

[lustigson]

I'd argue that the contrary is true. All current F1 teams, perhaps bar Ferrari, are specialist racing enterprises. There are no prober factory teams, again, perhaps bar Ferrari.

Red Bull:
Specialist racing team and race car builder (founded as Stewart in 1997)
Specialist power train builder (based on Honda IP), collaboration with Ford (from 2026)
Owned by auto manufacturer Ford and branded Jaguar (2000-2004)
Owned and branded by main sponsor (since 2005)
Factory team (Renault, Honda) and customer engines (Cosworth, Ferrari, Renault)

Ferrari:
Specialist racing team (since 1929) racing Alfa Romeo cars
Building its own race cars and engines (since 1947)
Owned by auto manufacturer FIAT (since 1969), publicly traded (since 2015)

Mercedes:
Not the same entity as Mercedes factory team (1954-1955)!
Specialist racing team (founded as Tyrrell in 1958) and race car builder (since 1970)
Subsequently owned by British American Tobacco, Honda, and Ross Brawn
Factory team (Yamaha, Honda) and customer engines (Ford, Renault, Honda, Ilmor)
Specialist power train builder with its roots in Ilmor Engineering (since 1993)
Owned by Mercedes, Ineos and Toto Wolff (all 33%)
Branded by one of the owners

Alpine/Renault:
Not the same entity as Renault factory team (1977-1985)!
Specialist racing team (founded as Toleman in 1981)
Subsequently owned by Benetton, Renault, GenII, and Renault again
Power trains manufactured by specialist company Mecachrome (since 1989)
Owned by auto manufacturer Renault and branded after sport marque Alpine
Using customer Mercedes engines (from 2026)

McLaren:
Specialist racing team (founded in 1966)
Buy-out by Project 4 (Ron Dennis) and Marlboro in 1980
Building its own road cars (since 1995)
Helped design and fund TAG-branded Porsche-built engines (1984-1987)
Factory team (Honda, Peugeot, Mercedes) and customer engines (Ford, Renault, Mercedes)

Sauber:
Specialist racing team (founded in 1970; in Formula 1 since 1993)
Owned by BMW (2005-2009) and Audi (partly since 2023; factory team from 2026)
Buy-out by investor Longbow Finance (2016)
Factory team (Mercedes, Ford, BMW, Audi) and customer engines (Ferrari)
Ironically an alliance with Red Bull and Ford (1995-1996)

Aston Martin:
Not the same entity as Aston Martin (1959-1960)!
Specialist racing team (founded as Jordan in 1991)
Subsequently owned by Midland, Spyker, Force India, and Racing Point
Factory team (Yamaha, Peugeot), customer engines (Ford, Hart, Mugen, Honda, Toyota, Ferrari, Mercedes
Branded by conglomerate that also owns luxury auto manufacturer Aston Martin

Haas:
Odd one, being a quasi-customer team of Ferrari (founded 2016)
Race car design and manufacturing outsourced to Dallara (since 2016)
Owned by CMC machining company Haas and branded as such

Racing Bulls:
Specialist racing team (founded as Minardi in 1979) and race car builder (since 1985)
Bought out by Red Bull (2006)
Effectively customer team of Red Bull (2006-2009)
Quasi factory team (Honda), and customer engines (Motori Moderni, Ford, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Hart, Asiatech (ex-Peugeot), Cosworth)

Williams:
Specialist racing team (since 1977) and race car builder (since 1978)
Majority owned by founder Frank Williams, partly publicly traded (since 2011)
Buy-out by investors Dorilton Capital (2020)
Factory team (Honda, Renault, BMW) and customer engines (Ford, Judd, Mecachrome/Supertec, Cosworth, Toyota, Renault, Mercedes)

[KWSN - DSM]

I think it's more the case than not.  Are Red Bulls built in Thailand or Milton Keynes?

 

It does not matter where they are build, the world at large know Red Bull is a (horrid) beverage, a smaller fraction of the world know Red Bull is a race and championship wining F1 team. All boards funding a F1 will be looking at return on investment - If Mercedes on their budget had the exact same results as Williams the past 10 seasons it would be

 

3rd

5th

5th

10th

10th

10th

8th

10th

7th

9th

 

There is no way Mercedes would have spend billions over those 10 years with that meager a result.

[chr1s]

 there will be people on that board who have no idea what or who Tyrrel was.

 

 

I have no idea what or who Tyrrel was either!

[PlatenGlass]

I have no idea what or who Tyrrel was either!

 

If it was misspelt the other way, someone could at least make a Blade Runner reference, but it's even been misspelt the wrong way!

[mclarensmps]

I'm happy about having an 11th team. I care little about whether it's a manufacturer or not.

[Victor]

As much as I love and admire the teams Enzo Ferrari used to call garagisti, and that have given so much to motorsport and F1, I believe that a genuine racing team is one that builds both its own car and engine. So, manufacters with racing pedigree are very welcome.

Edited by Victor, 09 March 2025 - 21:42.

[Nathan]

If you started watching in the 50's it would be normal.

 

I don't mind the involvement because a) when they bugger off they leave operating teams behind and b) by-and-large they are allowed to operate like independent racing teams run by real racing people.  To me, the Vassuer/Wolff/Horner are on par with Williams/Dennis/Tyrrell, so we still get those types.

[KWSN - DSM]

 

If you started watching in the 50's it would be normal.

 

I don't mind the involvement because a) when they bugger off they leave operating teams behind and b) by-and-large they are allowed to operate like independent racing teams run by real racing people.  To me, the Vassuer/Wolff/Horner are on par with Williams/Dennis/Tyrrell, so we still get those types.

 

 

Sure all those mentioned are better than the Williams also mentioned.

[Ferrim]

They are racing teams linked to big companies, most of them car manufacturers. In the modern F1, with its much more sustainable financial structure, in principle it shouldn't be too difficult to find new owners if a few of the current ones want to get out, as happened last time in 2008-9.

[pdac]

In the past there were people who were rich enough to bankroll an F1 team or people who could find an individual who was rich enough to bankroll an F1 team. Those people are now few and far between. Even those who are rich enough would not want to do it as a hobby - it's not that kind of business anymore.

[kumo7]

F1 as of now is not the level, financial, for an garage racing team, let alone individual to take the entire control of the team.

Stroll is an excellent operator but he still needs his team behind and Aston Martin.

Sauber, is as respectful as Williams or McLaren, at least to me, but it does need car makers to stay on the course.

Obviously, McLaren start selling cars but that after very long racing history.

The money involved in the F1 is at the level that there is nearly nothing else possible.

 

There are lots of talks about break away series, but none came out to impress with this grass route romance on garage racing against car makers.