25 replies to this topic

[Nemo1965]

I recently watched Lucky!, the documentary about Bernie Ecclestone. There were so many conflicting stories in it about the history of F1, I actually wanted to start a thread about it. But that was exactly the problem: I could not find 'a theme' around which the contradictions centered, so why would I bother.

 

But here is at least one that confused my mind and memory. In the documentary, Bernie taks about the 'watertanks'-scandal of 1982 season. He talks about it scathingly. He points at his coffee-cup and says: 'That is about how much water there was in those famous watertanks.'

Now, this almost drives me crazy. I really, really, think I remember seeing pictures in Grand Prix International of F1 cars with rubber watertanks of at least GALLONS of water placed in the side-pods of the car. The magazine wrote in detail about the tanks, about how they led to the boycot of Imola of 1982 by all the 'non-factory'-teams. I have no doubt that other magazines in the UK or else all over Europa wrote about it as well.

 

So my questions are two-fold.

 

1. Is Bernie deluded in his memory? 

2. If he is lying, why the hell would he forty years after the fact?

[Collombin]

Big tanks with very little water in them was the whole basis of the ploy, so I suppose he's right!

[opplock]

I recently watched Lucky!, the documentary about Bernie Ecclestone. 

 

Same here. It was interesting and some of the footage was well worth seeing. Several of his explanations had me cringing however as it was carefully structured to make Bernie, and Senna, look lilywhite. The water tank saga being one of them. No doubt someone has a Bernie biography ready to hit the printing presses as soon as he is no longer able to sue. The answers to your questions in my opinion are: 1) probably not, 2) trying to get his version into the mainstream before the book is published. 

[chr1s]

Unfortunately for us Bernie has outlived most of the people in a position to write  the warts and all book!

[GreenMachine]

Re the water tanks, isn't/wasn't it the case they could be 're-'filled prior to post-race weighing?

[john aston]

I don't know what Ecclestone is wanging on about . The whole point of the water tanks was to enable a car to start a race at a legal weight by adding water ballast for 'brake cooling ' . The water was then jettisoned as soon as the race  began , enabling the car to run underweight. At the end of the race  fluids could be replenished , thus enabling the car to be 'legal' again . 

[Tim Murray]

Indeed. And there’d have been no point in doing it unless a significant weight of water was involved.

[Nick Planas]

This is a standard BCE tactic - find a topic someone claims to know about and throw in a contradictory line to confuse, and then have the likes of us have a thread going about it ad infinitum. Sometimes it goes too far though, namely Massa's 2008 championship challenge saga.

[Collombin]

Blash and Whiting interview, Motor Sport, Jan 2006:-

"But the brakes just wouldn't run without that cooling. You'd go off at the end of the straight without that water pouring on to them"

"Sometimes it all pumped out before the start of the race. I don't know how the brakes survived"
"It must have been the drivers' skill"

And you topped up fluids at the end of course?
"You had to. That was the regulations!"

Edited by Collombin, 12 March 2025 - 07:44.

[ensign14]

I don't know what Ecclestone is wanging on about . The whole point of the water tanks was to enable a car to start a race at a legal weight by adding water ballast for 'brake cooling ' . The water was then jettisoned as soon as the race  began , enabling the car to run underweight. At the end of the race  fluids could be replenished , thus enabling the car to be 'legal' again . 

Did they ever start with water in them though?  After all, I don't recall any huge puddles appearing on warm-up laps.

[john aston]

Yes - I recall (I think ) seeing the stuff spraying out in early laps. Mind you what would BCE know , didn't he lock himself up in his Bond villain eyrie in the paddock after his Brabham days ?   

[chr1s]

He did a similar thing when talking about the Brabham  Alfa partnership.  He said "Gordon wanted a twelve cylinder engine" instead of "I lumbered Gordon with a twelve cylinder engine!"

[Charlieman]

He did a similar thing when talking about the Brabham  Alfa partnership.  He said "Gordon wanted a twelve cylinder engine" instead of "I lumbered Gordon with a twelve cylinder engine!"

That would be the pupeteer Gordon Murray, responsible for Camberwick Green and Trumpton?

[BRG]

He did a similar thing when talking about the Brabham  Alfa partnership.  He said "Gordon wanted a twelve cylinder engine" instead of "I lumbered Gordon with a twelve cylinder engine!"

A friend of mine and I had an adage back in the day "Never believe anything until Bernie has denied it"

 

Mind you, Gordon does have a bit of a thing for 12 cylinder engines.

 

 

 

Although he prefers V12s, not the flat variety.

[chr1s]

I can see the logic of wanting a twelve cylinder motor at that time, considering Ferraris success with them. My point was that Bernies' primary motivation for the Alfa deal was that the engines were free, any performance gain was a welcome, albeit  secondary consideration. 

[Dick Dastardly]

Bernie & Water.....10 - 15 years back, he wanted water tankers at every circuit to douse the track so every GP would be a wet one !

[Sterzo]

Bernie and water? In the late eighties / early nineties during periods of drought the London Borough of Bexley banned the watering of lawns. Water tanker lorries were seen arriving at a certain address to hose the lawns, totally against the law. Relevance? Mr Ecclestone may not be the most reliable person when discussing the use of water in relation to regulations.

[john aston]

Quel surprise . Why that man is still treated with such reverence  by some is beyond me . 

[BRG]

Well, that is one of the talents of the true con-artist, that some people still believe in them even after they have been exposed as liars and cheats.

[Sterzo]

Quel surprise . Why that man is still treated with such reverence  by some is beyond me . 

Special 75th Anniversary Honouree prize at the recent Autosport Awards. Dictionary.com tells us "To be honored is to be held in high respect by others".

[Glengavel]

The more he spoke of his honour the faster we counted the spoons.

[Henri Greuter]

I don't know what Ecclestone is wanging on about . The whole point of the water tanks was to enable a car to start a race at a legal weight by adding water ballast for 'brake cooling ' . The water was then jettisoned as soon as the race  began , enabling the car to run underweight. At the end of the race  fluids could be replenished , thus enabling the car to be 'legal' again . 

 

 

From what I've understood, the water was never in the cars at the start! Otherwise we should have seen a number of very wet spots on the tracks because  of all those liters of water dumped on the asphalt!

But I can't recall I have ever heard anything about dry races and comments by reporters about seeing wet sports on the tracks early on in the race.

If you see how much area of a road is visibly wet after only a failry small amount of water being dropped on a road or street, then how must the tracks have looked like when at least 10 or so cars dumped at least 10 to 25 liters of water on the tracks????

 

So as far as I know: The water was never in the tanks to begin with! the more while cars were weighted after the race and not before the start. No need to put the water in then.

 

That was, as far as I can see one of the most dirty aspects of the entire trick: The water only got in after the race was held.

 

 

 

EDIT.  Niki Lauda made some comments about that to Heinz Pruller for his book Grand Prix Story 1982.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 14 March 2025 - 15:47.

[Collombin]

It was Bernie's Brabham team that brought refuelling back at around this time - wasn't there some speculation that they have could been running underweight for the first part of races, up until their refuelling pitstop? It seems quite an obvious thing to do for any team that opted to refuel.

Edited by Collombin, 14 March 2025 - 16:04.

[Risil]

When were the cars weighed in those days? Obvs no need to put the water in at all unless you think somebody's going to put your car on the scales.

[Collombin]

When were the cars weighed in those days?

After the race, but initially you were allowed to top up all fluids/coolants etc before being weighed. After the controversy I think it reverted to cars being weighed as they were when they finished.

[ensign14]

After the race, but initially you were allowed to top up all fluids/coolants etc before being weighed. After the controversy I think it reverted to cars being weighed as they were when they finished.

Which accidentally screwed ATS - they lost a point at San Marino because Winkelhock was DQ'd from 6th, because they weren't allowed to add back the brake fluid which had boiled away during the race, and the car was a tad too light without it.

 

Although ATS had only got 2 points earlier in the season after Piquet and Keke were DQ'd so swings and roundabouts.