95 replies to this topic

[pacificquay]

For someone who has been around a while I well remember Estoril 1993 and Mika Hakkinen outqualifying Ayrton Senna in their first race together.

 

It was a fantastic achievement.

 

However, Mika was a) one of the fastest drivers there's ever been and b) had been testing the McLaren all year.

 

In 2025 testing is very limited.

 

We've seen Liam Lawson struggle in Red Bull, we've seen Yuki Tsunoda not find it straightforward too.

 

We've seen Carlos Sainz a bit off it in his move to Williams.

 

So - given how specialist different cars, engines, setups seem to be now it requires a lot longer to get to that final few tenths.

 

Should we be a bit more reasonable in our assessments rather than expecting drivers to be able to just jump in and blow it away?

[chrcol]

Yes because there is more complexity now.

[Fatgadget]

However, Mika was a) one of the fastest drivers there's ever been and

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?

[se7en_24]

Yeah Mika made David Coulthard look like a quick driver on quite a few occasions.

[Risil]

The top guys will adapt quickly. Antonelli is pretty close to Russell immediately, and Russell was pretty close to Lewis.

 

IMHO Sainz and Tsunoda are not top drivers but Sainz has demonstrated that he can work on a difficult car, avoid panic, and learn how to get more out of it. Tsunoda will have to do the same this year.

 

I have no doubt that the absence of testing doesn't help, but that's been the case for a really long time now. The only drivers who experienced the old days are pushing 40 now.

[se7en_24]

That's a good point, all of the rookies have adapted fairly quickly. Is it too easy to get too accustomed to a particular F1 car then that makes moving to another difficult, vs. coming from an F2 car and starting afresh? 

[Alfisti]

I said this last year, switching teams is tough. So let me clarify, I think it is one thing to get close to your teammate, all the rookies this year have done a great job, they all look like they belong and are there or thereabouts. Bravo. But those last tenths, getting on the pace of an established teammate and bettering him, is harder than getting 95% of the way there. 

[Myrvold]

That's a good point, all of the rookies have adapted fairly quickly. Is it too easy to get too accustomed to a particular F1 car then that makes moving to another difficult, vs. coming from an F2 car and starting afresh? 

 

Considering that F3 cars are more similar to F1 in terms of driving style, it's probably easier to get rid of F2-isms than moving between F1 teams with totally different ideas.

[pacificquay]

However, Mika was a) one of the fastest drivers there's ever been and

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?

 

Everyone who worked with him says so, many of his rivals, including Schumacher said so, people like Mark Hughes who were there from the pre-F1 days onwards, say so.

[SpeedRacer`]

Yeah Mika made David Coulthard look like a quick driver on quite a few occasions.

 

Martin Whitmarsh said about 10-15 years ago that they thought Mika was the fastest driver they ever had. He obviously had other flaws though.

[PlatenGlass]

Martin Whitmarsh said about 10-15 years ago that they thought Mika was the fastest driver they ever had. He obviously had other flaws though.

It's like Charles Leclerc. He'll do a qualifying lap that will wow everyone for two years and no-one will notice the other laps he does in that period.

By fastest over one lap, it's meant very literally. Just the one lap.

[KPower]

The top guys will adapt quickly. Antonelli is pretty close to Russell immediately, and Russell was pretty close to Lewis.

 

IMHO Sainz and Tsunoda are not top drivers but Sainz has demonstrated that he can work on a difficult car, avoid panic, and learn how to get more out of it. Tsunoda will have to do the same this year.

 

I have no doubt that the absence of testing doesn't help, but that's been the case for a really long time now. The only drivers who experienced the old days are pushing 40 now.

 

Both Antonelli and Russell had extensive testing programs before stepping on to the grid as Mercedes drivers. It isn't just about being a "top guy". Despite the sprint win, Hamilton is also having trouble getting 100% out of the Ferrari thus far. 

 

Unlike rookies, veteran drivers have to unlearn and relearn any habits they picked up from previous teams. For example, Sainz said the Ferrari had a specific way to gain time on corner entry that the Williams does not respond well to. Now he has to sacrifice corner entry for exit speed, which isn't something drivers just "do". You have to integrate that into your natural driving style.

 

He said it will take at 5 races to figure out the car and maybe as much as 10. I'm giving guys like Hamilton, Hulk, Tusnoda, Ocon, etc the same grace. 

 

Going further on this topic, I think that guys like Leclerc and Verstappen, who have spent most of their careers with one team and driven cars with similar characteristics year after year, would have some initial trouble adapting to new cars with completely different philosophies as well. Eventually they'd figure it out, they're great drivers. But if I put them in a car with a weak front end like say a 2018-2021 McLaren, it would definitely challenge their driving styles.

Edited by KPower, 07 April 2025 - 14:15.

[messy]

However, Mika was a) one of the fastest drivers there's ever been and

======================================================

?

 

Is that really so controversial? Mika was crazy quick. 

 

On topic, yes I think so, in some circumstances, but as ever there are really mixed messages. For every Sainz or Lawson struggling to adapt instantly to different car, there's a Colapinto who adapts so quickly that people think they're the reincarnation of Ayrton Senna until they prove otherwise over a larger sample, or an Ollie Bearman Totally dependent on car characteristics, driving styles, preparation etc etc etc,  but overally I'd say more people struggle/take some time these days than they used to. I think sometimes having a lot of experience of things being a 'certain way' like Sainz is more of a disadvantage in adapting than some F2 kid who jumps in with no F1 experience. The same but different is maybe harder than just totally new.

[Sterzo]

I should imagine there's a big difference between teams, and between different individuals within each team. Some will be brilliant at helping a new driver adapt, others less so. Also, there's that intangible element of building understanding. Some people relate best to consideration and sympathy, others prefer directness. Some can get on with anyone, others are fine with matching personalities but not with opposites.

 

The highest engineering skills don't always go with the greatest interpersonal skills, but you need both in a race engineer. Perfection must be rare.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I should imagine there's a big difference between teams, and between different individuals within each team. Some will be brilliant at helping a new driver adapt, others less so. Also, there's that intangible element of building understanding. Some people relate best to consideration and sympathy, others prefer directness. Some can get on with anyone, others are fine with matching personalities but not with opposites.

 

The highest engineering skills don't always go with the greatest interpersonal skills, but you need both in a race engineer. Perfection must be rare.

And also the language barrier?

[pdac]

Changing teams? Stop whinging and just get on with it.

[TomNokoe]

Bring back in season testing!

[pacificquay]

Ollie Bearman was mentioned upthread - I would actually say because of the difficulty of everything, he is a seriously impressive rookie - a view shared by Haas and Ferrari, incidentally.

[KWSN - DSM]

They test thousands of laps in F1 cars, under the 'old cars' program and they spend untold hours in the simulators. If you are good, you are good, if you are fast you are fast - We are giving way too many excuses to drivers who much as they are very good, are just not great, Does not appear as if an 18 year old highly rated driver is struggling.

[Analog]

Martin Whitmarsh said about 10-15 years ago that they thought Mika was the fastest driver they ever had. He obviously had other flaws though.

I'm not sure we got all of Mika back after his big crash.

[pacificquay]

I'm not sure we got all of Mika back after his big crash.

 

He was much better after his crash - he's spoken about that a few times.

[NewMrMe]

I wonder whether it is getting used to a new car, or the time needed to build a relationship with a new race engineer and for the engineer to understand what the new driver likes.

[Analog]

As a response to the actual question posed in this thread: I think it has never been easier than now. The simulators, the... well everything in F1 is more streamlined and both tools and routines are more similar. As are the cars. And, if I did not mentioned them: The simulators!

[KPower]

They test thousands of laps in F1 cars, under the 'old cars' program and they spend untold hours in the simulators. If you are good, you are good, if you are fast you are fast - We are giving way too many excuses to drivers who much as they are very good, are just not great, Does not appear as if an 18 year old highly rated driver is struggling.

 

Like I said, rookies aren't unlearning. They are a blank slate.

 

Every veteran driver, no matter the talent level, is having to reprogram themselves. Expecting them to be on par with drivers who've been in the same team for 3,5, and even 10+ years isn't realistic. 

[KPower]

As a response to the actual question posed in this thread: I think it has never been easier than now. The simulators, the... well everything in F1 is more streamlined and both tools and routines are more similar. As are the cars. And, if I did not mentioned them: The simulators!

 

Simulators are not a 1:1 replacement for seat time. 

[Analog]

He was much better after his crash - he's spoken about that a few times.

"My brain damage made me faster"? 
 

[Analog]

Simulators are not a 1:1 replacement for seat time. 

Wow man that's deep!

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Personally I don't have any difficulty switching teams. Yesterday I was driving Renault Sport R.S. 01 and today I'm driving Peugeot 9X8.

 

[KPower]

Wow man that's deep!

 

So is claiming simulators make switching teams easier. 

 

The cars and tools obviously aren't more similar if its taking drivers longer to make an impact in new teams.

[PlatenGlass]

He was much better after his crash - he's spoken about that a few times.

 

I always wondered if his lack of consistency was a result of the crash. He was just weirdly not there at some weekends.

[Analog]

So is claiming simulators make switching teams easier. 

 

The cars and tools obviously aren't more similar if its taking drivers longer to make an impact in new teams.

Now take a step back and look at that sentence.

[Spillage]

The lack of testing definitely shows. None of the rookies have done that well so far, although I felt Hadjar and Bearman had impressive weekends in Japan. But you've got to imagine it's harder for rookies than people switching teams.

I've been surprised by how much the experienced drivers switching teams have struggled. Hulkenb is the only one to get the better of his teammate, but his teammate is a rookie. Hamilton looked good in the China sprint but has otherwise struggled next to Leclerc. Lawson and Tsunoda have both been miles off Verstappen. But to be fair to the new drivers at Ferrari and Red Bull they're going up against two of the best drivers on the grid.

The one that's surprised me is how much Sainz has struggled at Williams. I really thought he'd have the beating of Albon. Maybe Alex is just better than I thought, but I'm sure the lack of mileage can't be helping. So far these guys have only had one weekend that wasn't wet or a sprint, after all.

[KPower]

Now take a step back and look at that sentence.

 

If the cars were similar, the impact of switching to different teams on drivers would be minimal. We know that's not the case.

[Analog]

If the cars were similar, the impact of switching to different teams on drivers would be minimal. We know that's not the case.

How do we know that? Are you saying the cars of, say 1997 or 2011 was more similar? 1968? The regulations have, I'm fairly certain, never been tighter than they are now and that automatically make the cars more similar than ever before. 

[MikeTekRacing]

So is claiming simulators make switching teams easier. 

 

The cars and tools obviously aren't more similar if its taking drivers longer to make an impact in new teams.

of course they make it easier than without them. 

Not a silver bullet, but they offer a starting point in understanding the car

[paulb]

No we don't, because we are all experts here on what is needed to drive any current F1 car to its limit.

[KPower]

of course they make it easier than without them. 

Not a silver bullet, but they offer a starting point in understanding the car

 

But it wasn't a comparison of simulation vs nothing. It was today being easier than yesteryear, where there were thousands of miles of in-seat testing available.

[KPower]

How do we know that? Are you saying the cars of, say 1997 or 2011 was more similar? 1968? The regulations have, I'm fairly certain, never been tighter than they are now and that automatically make the cars more similar than ever before. 

 

Over the past few years, drivers have said the ground effect cars are extremely specific in how they have to be driven compared to even the last set of regulations.

 

It would only stand to reason that because of how small the operating windows are and how tight the field spread is, the driving styles have to be even more detailed than before.

 

So while the cars, may look the same, drivers that have tailored their driving to a specific car needing a very specific way of being used are having trouble adapting to a different car with their own exacting requirements.

 

Sainz said as much here:

 

 

"I was used to a certain type of car in Ferrari, which made me end up driving - especially since 2022 - in a very specific way, to extract everything about that car," he said ahead of the Japanese Grand Prix.

"And you fall into, let's say, habits in your driving, that then you apply to the next car. It might work in some corners, but in others it makes you very weak. And that's probably a bit of it. The car has completely different strengths and weaknesses to the car I used to be driving for three years, adapted [to] for three years, and that I was so quick with last year," he said.

 

This isn't any different than the past but, I think the lack of seat time today drivers have coupled with these regs makes it more difficult for veterans to jump around even against blank slate rookies and especially vs teammates with experience with a team's design philosophies. 

 

The only true way to adapt is seat time IMO. The simulators give you a baseline, but we know even today's simulators have trouble with this reg set.

Edited by KPower, 07 April 2025 - 18:38.

[Analog]

But it wasn't a comparison of simulation vs nothing. It was today being easier than yesteryear, where there were thousands of miles of in-seat testing available.

You said that simulators are not a 1:1 replacement for seat time but that also holds true for the thousands of miles in-seat testing of the yesteryears. Those tests was not for the drivers to learn how to drive. It is not just the simulators, there's also the telemetry. Senna never heard "you lose a tenth in the hairpin" or "brake a bit earlier in T9". At Suzuka, it was around 1.5 seconds between first and last car in Q1. In 2015 it was 5 seconds, if we remove Rossi's time. 2005 saw almost 9 seconds (I think it was wet) and 1995 it was 10 seconds (Q2). 

 

[Jops14]

Bring back in season testing!

I always think there is a real opportunity to do it at selected races a la abu dhabi.

Pick say 4 “convenient” venues, young drivers only. For example, single day test after Imola, Catalunya, Silverstone and Zandvoort/Monza.

Calendar probs too congested to even pull that off now

[KPower]

You said that simulators are not a 1:1 replacement for seat time but that also holds true for the thousands of miles in-seat testing of the yesteryears. Those tests was not for the drivers to learn how to drive. It is not just the simulators, there's also the telemetry. Senna never heard "you lose a tenth in the hairpin" or "brake a bit earlier in T9". At Suzuka, it was around 1.5 seconds between first and last car in Q1. In 2015 it was 5 seconds, if we remove Rossi's time. 2005 saw almost 9 seconds (I think it was wet) and 1995 it was 10 seconds (Q2). 

 

 

If you were to ask the drivers which one they'd rather have, which do you think they'd choose?

 

Some combination of both is likely best, but I think most would rather being in-car for the majority of their acclimation period rather than in the sim.

[George Costanza]

For someone who has been around a while I well remember Estoril 1993 and Mika Hakkinen outqualifying Ayrton Senna in their first race together.

It was a fantastic achievement.

However, Mika was a) one of the fastest drivers there's ever been and b) had been testing the McLaren all year.

In 2025 testing is very limited.

We've seen Liam Lawson struggle in Red Bull, we've seen Yuki Tsunoda not find it straightforward too.

We've seen Carlos Sainz a bit off it in his move to Williams.

So - given how specialist different cars, engines, setups seem to be now it requires a lot longer to get to that final few tenths.

Should we be a bit more reasonable in our assessments rather than expecting drivers to be able to just jump in and blow it away?

Mika was one of the greatest drivers over one lap. He was faster than Michael was over one lap in the era of 1997-2000.

There aren't going to be many drivers as fast as Mika was, the only two that would compare are, you guess it, Senna and Schumacher of that era.

Edited by George Costanza, 07 April 2025 - 19:13.

[George Costanza]

Martin Whitmarsh said about 10-15 years ago that they thought Mika was the fastest driver they ever had. He obviously had other flaws though.

Because he was. Over one lap; he was.

But he obviously wasn't as consistent as Schumacher or Senna or Max is. Different level of consistency.

Edited by George Costanza, 07 April 2025 - 19:19.

[George Costanza]

I'm not sure we got all of Mika back after his big crash.

And I think Mika talked about that in the 2000 season when he lost the championship with Schumacher.

But Mika managed to do it twice (win the championship) after his crash is quite extraordinary.

Edited by George Costanza, 07 April 2025 - 19:24.

[RedRabbit]

Mika was one of the greatest drivers over one lap. He was faster than Michael was over one lap in the era of 1997-2000.

There aren't going to be many drivers as fast as Mika was, the only two that would compare are, you guess it, Senna and Schumacher of that era.

Schumacher was fast over 1 lap over his entire (main) career. Same as Senna.

[PlatenGlass]

Mika was one of the greatest drivers over one lap. He was faster than Michael was over one lap in the era of 1997-2000.

This comes up loads but there isn't any evidence for it. And even if Mika's ceiling was higher, Schumacher would win the head to head. I think 1999 was the only year where Hakkinen qualified well pretty much all year without random slumps.

[Wes350]

Both Antonelli and Russell had extensive testing programs before stepping on to the grid as Mercedes drivers. It isn't just about being a "top guy". Despite the sprint win, Hamilton is also having trouble getting 100% out of the Ferrari thus far. 

 

Unlike rookies, veteran drivers have to unlearn and relearn any habits they picked up from previous teams. For example, Sainz said the Ferrari had a specific way to gain time on corner entry that the Williams does not respond well to. Now he has to sacrifice corner entry for exit speed, which isn't something drivers just "do". You have to integrate that into your natural driving style.

 

He said it will take at 5 races to figure out the car and maybe as much as 10. I'm giving guys like Hamilton, Hulk, Tusnoda, Ocon, etc the same grace. 

 

Going further on this topic, I think that guys like Leclerc and Verstappen, who have spent most of their careers with one team and driven cars with similar characteristics year after year, would have some initial trouble adapting to new cars with completely different philosophies as well. Eventually they'd figure it out, they're great drivers. But if I put them in a car with a weak front end like say a 2018-2021 McLaren, it would definitely challenge their driving styles.

^THIS^

 

In my opinion; This formula is also very tricky for drivers. The cars are heavy, and the ground effect demands they be driven in very specific ways to extract speed.. There's very little room for a driver to impose their style on set-ups.

 

The 2026 cars will be fundamentally different, and it will be interesting to see how things shake out when drivers like Lewis get to drive closer to their natural style again...

[F1Johnny]

This comes up loads but there isn't any evidence for it. And even if Mika's ceiling was higher, Schumacher would win the head to head. I think 1999 was the only year where Hakkinen qualified well pretty much all year without random slumps.

 

Mika was always highly regarded over 1 lap but just never had the car to rack up the stats to show it.  Schumacher had GP winning cars most of his career, whereas Mika had a GP winning car for barely 5 years (1997-2001).  Also the competition from Schumacher in the Ferrari was hot and while Schumacher was the better driver, Mika's 1 lap pace was amazing.

[MikeTekRacing]

Mika was unbeatable on his best days, but they did not come often enough.

Michael was a beast regularly

[George Costanza]

This comes up loads but there isn't any evidence for it. And even if Mika's ceiling was higher, Schumacher would win the head to head. I think 1999 was the only year where Hakkinen qualified well pretty much all year without random slumps.

Over one lap, Mika was quicker when they had similar cars, such as the 1999 season which the Ferrari was on par in terms of speed. I think in 2000, they were equally quick, with the edge on the McLaren, Michael had the edge that season for sure because he was that much better than anyone else in terms of consistency.

Ironically, 1999 wasn't Mika's best season. I would argue that 2000 were better despite not winning the championship in 2000.

But over course of the season Michael had much better consistency.

Edited by George Costanza, 07 April 2025 - 21:12.