95 replies to this topic

[George Costanza]

Mika was unbeatable on his best days, but they did not come often enough.
Michael was a beast regularly

This is 100 percent true.

[Analog]

I think that what we underestimate is how precise F1 is nowadays. It is now fairly common that the top 10 in Q3 are separated with less than a second. Laptimes are measured to the thousands of a second, and it's not coz it looks cool, it is necessary. Still, and this is pretty amazing when you think about it, still the top ten is predictable. All F1 drivers are amazing. Even Lawson. 
 

With this precision, the need for razor sharp slicing through the corners, the millimeter accuracy under braking, even the tiniest changes in an aging body start to matter.  

[George Costanza]

Schumacher was fast over 1 lap over his entire (main) career. Same as Senna.

Yes that is correct. But one lap pace wasn't Schumacher's absolute strength.

[noikeee]

I think that what we underestimate is how precise F1 is nowadays. It is now fairly common that the top 10 in Q3 are separated with less than a second. Laptimes are measured to the thousands of a second, and it's not coz it looks cool, it is necessary. Still, and this is pretty amazing when you think about it, still the top ten is predictable. All F1 drivers are amazing. Even Lawson.

With this precision, the need for razor sharp slicing through the corners, the millimeter accuracy under braking, even the tiniest changes in an aging body start to matter.

Yeah I think this is a pretty critical point. The field is incredibly tight which magnifies any minor adaptability flaws. We're all criticising Sainz for not being ahead of Albon, yet he's been like what, less than a tenth off him most qualy laps? Do you guys have any idea how absurdly small those differences are? Drivers can't even consciously feel them.

[PlatenGlass]

Yeah I think this is a pretty critical point. The field is incredibly tight which magnifies any minor adaptability flaws. We're all criticising Sainz for not being ahead of Albon, yet he's been like what, less than a tenth off him most qualy laps? Do you guys have any idea how absurdly small those differences are? Drivers can't even consciously feel them.

 

I think the thing is drivers in top cars always get overestimated. "The best drivers are in the best cars" etc. This has also been exaggerated by some of the damage being at Red Bull with Verstappen has done to the reputations of some of the midfield drivers, including Albon. There are several drivers sitting in tops cars right now that I'd be very worried for if they moved to Red Bull. People also forget that Hulkenberg beat Sainz as team-mates in 2018.

 

Of course on average I think there's a correlation between good cars and good drivers, but it's not such a clear cut thing.

[vlado]

People also forget that Hulkenberg beat Sainz as team-mates in 2018.

I still think this was the main reason he didn’t go to Audi since in theory Albon was the easier one to deal with, but like you say, Red Bull’s shenanigans might’ve skewed the view on Albon.

As far as I know Albon’s junior career was quite impressive

[noikeee]

As far as I know Albon’s junior career was quite impressive

It was very on/off, bad season good season, bad season good season

Even in his good seasons he wasn't as good as Leclerc or Russell

I wasn't expecting him to do as well as he's done in F1 at all

[MikeTekRacing]

I still think this was the main reason he didn’t go to Audi since in theory Albon was the easier one to deal with, but like you say, Red Bull’s shenanigans might’ve skewed the view on Albon.

As far as I know Albon’s junior career was quite impressive

I think Williams looks more like a today team than Audi. 

And he is right...

 

he just partnered and played 1:1 with Leclerc. Do you think the prospect of Hulk scares him?

[MikeTekRacing]

I think that what we underestimate is how precise F1 is nowadays. It is now fairly common that the top 10 in Q3 are separated with less than a second. Laptimes are measured to the thousands of a second, and it's not coz it looks cool, it is necessary. Still, and this is pretty amazing when you think about it, still the top ten is predictable. All F1 drivers are amazing. Even Lawson. 
 

With this precision, the need for razor sharp slicing through the corners, the millimeter accuracy under braking, even the tiniest changes in an aging body start to matter.  

I was watching this through qualy and looking especially at Leclerc and Hamilton. Splitting hairs with the 3rd decimal, there was not a lot different in those times.

Mighty impressive how close top drivers are today

[Alfisti]

I think that what we underestimate is how precise F1 is nowadays. It is now fairly common that the top 10 in Q3 are separated with less than a second. Laptimes are measured to the thousands of a second, and it's not coz it looks cool, it is necessary. Still, and this is pretty amazing when you think about it, still the top ten is predictable. All F1 drivers are amazing. Even Lawson.

With this precision, the need for razor sharp slicing through the corners, the millimeter accuracy under braking, even the tiniest changes in an aging body start to matter.

I've been saying this in a few threads, it's bang on, there's nothing left on the table.

[ATM]

Yeah, that starts to look like a worrying pattern which we already had back în the 2000s-great qualifying, drivers give it all, edge of your seat stuff-but come race day, bummer, you get a procession because of aero regulation blunders. Whoever is în free air has all the cards.

[RPM40]

Its definitely underestimated now.

 

The cars have thousands of functions on their steering wheel and being fast isn't about necessarily driving on the limit its about understanding how to set the car up and understand tyre prep and how to manage the tyre over the lap.

 

Rookies still should show flashes of talent, but its unreasonable to expect it all to go together without that experience. 

[7MGTEsup]

Did I miss remember that Jacques villeneuve played Grand Prix 2 to learn the circuits back in 1996?

[PayasYouRace]

Did I miss remember that Jacques villeneuve played Grand Prix 2 to learn the circuits back in 1996?

No I think you’re correct. He used the game for some basic circuit familiarisation to help him get up to speed. As the game was released on 23 July 1996, he’d have been able to use it for getting to learn Hockenheim onwards.

I expect he would have been familiar with Monza and Suzuka already.

[PayasYouRace]

If you were to ask the drivers which one they'd rather have, which do you think they'd choose?

Some combination of both is likely best, but I think most would rather being in-car for the majority of their acclimation period rather than in the sim.

It would be interesting to find out more. There are things that the sim allow that would be impossible in real life, such as getting in laps at Melbourne, Monaco, Montreal and all the other temporary circuits.

The feel of current sims is incredible. As long as they are capturing the car behaviour accurately the only real lack of feel is in recreating the G-forces. They do their best to throw the driver around a little to give the inner ear the right signals, but you can’t recreate 5G of braking for very long, if at all. Would that make the sim less tiring for the driver, allowing them to get more laps in?

[Analog]

No I think you’re correct. He used the game for some basic circuit familiarisation to help him get up to speed. As the game was released on 23 July 1996, he’d have been able to use it for getting to learn Hockenheim onwards.

I expect he would have been familiar with Monza and Suzuka already.

The current sims are amazing, as you said in your subsequent post, but GP2 was not really a simulator, it was more a simulator of a simulator  
It did not have a "physics engine" and the cars behavior was basically pre-computed so you calling it a "game" is correct. I doubt Jaques actually gained anything that a study of a track map could not do.
  

Comparing the testing of before is not really relevant since you cannot really do any decent testing with drivers that are not already familiar with the car and while they certainly had the possible to do "driver testing," it was still quite expensive to to run tests. Even in a best case scenario I doubt they'd get more than a few percent of the laps they get in a simulator. And more importantly - they'd get very few chances to do laps in quali trim and 100% commitment.

[PayasYouRace]

The current sims are amazing, as you said in your subsequent post, but GP2 was not really a simulator, it was more a simulator of a simulator
It did not have a "physics engine" and the cars behavior was basically pre-computed so you calling it a "game" is correct. I doubt Jaques actually gained anything that a study of a track map could not do.

I can’t get on with that sort of sim snobbery that a sim has to clear a certain bar to be properly considered a sim. I only called it a game because it was a commercially available video game, but for its time it was a very good sim too. Game and sim are not mutually exclusive terms.

You’d definitely get a bit more than from looking at a track map. You’d get a first person representation of the circuit. I’m sure it would have some value to a driver back then.

[Analog]

I can’t get on with that sort of sim snobbery that a sim has to clear a certain bar to be properly considered a sim. I only called it a game because it was a commercially available video game, but for its time it was a very good sim too. Game and sim are not mutually exclusive terms.

You’d definitely get a bit more than from looking at a track map. You’d get a first person representation of the circuit. I’m sure it would have some value to a driver back then.

It was a game.

[PayasYouRace]

It was a game.

It was also a sim, and a very good one for 1996.

[se7en_24]

It did not have a "physics engine" and the cars behavior was basically pre-computed so you calling it a "game" is correct. I doubt Jaques actually gained anything that a study of a track map could not do.
 

I know it's not the same as F1, but when I started club racing in the UK (and Spa) I used TOCA 2 to 'learn' new tracks, and found it really useful. Part of circuit knowledge is knowing the layout, and playing a game is a lot better than reading a book, at least I found.

[B Squared]

I'm quite confident that I remember JV stating that he had learned the Spa circuit with that particular game when he claimed pole in 1996.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Who is this 'Jacques Villeneuve' fella? You guys must mean John Newhouse. 

[IrvTheSwerve]

The current sims are amazing, as you said in your subsequent post, but GP2 was not really a simulator, it was more a simulator of a simulator  
It did not have a "physics engine" and the cars behavior was basically pre-computed so you calling it a "game" is correct. I doubt Jaques actually gained anything that a study of a track map could not do.
  

Comparing the testing of before is not really relevant since you cannot really do any decent testing with drivers that are not already familiar with the car and while they certainly had the possible to do "driver testing," it was still quite expensive to to run tests. Even in a best case scenario I doubt they'd get more than a few percent of the laps they get in a simulator. And more importantly - they'd get very few chances to do laps in quali trim and 100% commitment.

 

Obviously it was nowhere near what is available today, but being able to take a car around a fairly good representation of the whole calendar won't have hurt. We aren't talking about car set up etc. Doing endless laps around each track in your own time back then really was a privilege and an advantage, however small the advantage was. It was better than him rocking up and seeing the circuits for the first time while in an actual F1 car. 

[KWSN - DSM]

I'm quite confident that I remember JV stating that he had learned the Spa circuit with that particular game when he claimed pole in 1996.

 

+1

[Analog]

I know it's not the same as F1, but when I started club racing in the UK (and Spa) I used TOCA 2 to 'learn' new tracks, and found it really useful. Part of circuit knowledge is knowing the layout, and playing a game is a lot better than reading a book, at least I found.

TOCA 2 was quite good, a huuuge step up from GP2. It was also the time when decent controllers (steering wheels and pedals) became available. Jaques did his "practice" on a "on/off" joypad or keyboard and I stand by my opinion that the only thing he got out from it was good story.

There's nothing here that you cannot learn from an onboard video:

[PayasYouRace]

GP2 had full analogue control inputs with the possibility of wheel and pedals. When I played it I had a Logitech Wingman Light analogue joystick.

Also, it wasn’t that easy to just watch onboard videos in 1996. Did Williams have a video archive?

[7MGTEsup]

GP2 had full analogue control inputs with the possibility of wheel and pedals. When I played it I had a Logitech Wingman Light analogue joystick.

Also, it wasn’t that easy to just watch onboard videos in 1996. Did Williams have a video archive?

 

One assumes that all the onboard video footage was owned by the broadcasters and not the property of the teams? It was very rare back then to get complete laps of footage (For the public at least). Were the cameras always recording or were the only recording if the director switched to them? If they were always recording there should be 1000's of hours of footage going back to the mid 80's. I know there are a few videos on youtube of onboard stuff from 1989/90 where there are many laps recorded (Berger at Estoril 1989 springs to mind).

[Stoffel]

Who is this 'Jacques Villeneuve' fella? You guys must mean John Newhouse. 

 

Tell me you're old without telling me you're old 

 

 

*I'm GP2 old as well

[PayasYouRace]

One assumes that all the onboard video footage was owned by the broadcasters and not the property of the teams? It was very rare back then to get complete laps of footage (For the public at least). Were the cameras always recording or were the only recording if the director switched to them? If they were always recording there should be 1000's of hours of footage going back to the mid 80's. I know there are a few videos on youtube of onboard stuff from 1989/90 where there are many laps recorded (Berger at Estoril 1989 springs to mind).

We know from Imola 1994 that the cameras were turned on and off when needed. Thats why Senna’s onboard is missing the final few seconds. The director cut away to activate a different camera just as he lost control.

I think the full race onboard was an exceptional event, and I want to say it was something done by FujiTV.

So unless the teams had archivists who taped every race from the BBC, it’s unlikely they had a catalogue of onboard footage to hand over to their new driver to study. Whereas a £40 copy of the latest groundbreaking F1 sim was easily achievable to run on a 486.

[PayasYouRace]

Tell me you're old without telling me you're old


*I'm GP2 old as well

Well for that joke you only need to be be GP3 old.

[PlatenGlass]

I'm GP1 old school (or Formula One Grand Prix as I believe the original was actually called). Was e.g. Michael Schumacher Helmut Becker in 2 and 3 as well?

[PayasYouRace]

I'm GP1 old school (or Formula One Grand Prix as I believe the original was actually called). Was e.g. Michael Schumacher Helmut Becker in 2 and 3 as well?

GP2 had a full list of licensed named drivers. It was the British/German GP entry list. Jacques Villeneuve was the only driver who wasn’t in GP3 because it came out during that phase where he’d trademarked his name and games couldn’t use it. By GP4 his name and likeness was included in the licence.

[DW46]

Tell me you're old without telling me you're old


*I'm GP2 old as well

See I had F1 98 where Williams had 2 drivers;
- Heinz-Harold Frentzen
- Williams Driver Number 1

😂

[Stephane]

Those gp1 names were funny

[Augurk]

If y’all remember GP2, do you also remember GPM2?

To this day I’m fairly sure I’d still consider it the best f1 management game to be released.

[MikeTekRacing]

Yeah both were cool.
I played Gp2 A LOT, loved the Simtek livery with MTV on it

[Jops14]

If y’all remember GP2, do you also remember GPM2?

To this day I’m fairly sure I’d still consider it the best f1 management game to be released.

Very off topic but GPW was the goat, especially after the changes to the design system

[IrvTheSwerve]

See I had F1 98 where Williams had 2 drivers;
- Heinz-Harold Frentzen
- Williams Driver Number 1

F1 97 had that too. 

[Secretariat]

I think one of the factors in this question that has been partly touched upon is the volume of procedures each team has that simply takes time to adapt to, particularly in the era of minimal testing. These days it seems part of the assessment of a driver should be type rating and hours in addition to pace. Pilots get sim time, but it still does not equate to actual flight hours (i.e. seat time).

 

Additionally, in one of the practices this season (I can't remember now), Ruth B on F1TV highlighted in her experience a driver having to modify their style due to some specific parameter and inherent characteristic of the engine for reliability purposes. The little details can add up quickly to loses in performances (i.e. lap time, mistakes and so on) and if we consider how small the differences are, I think some degree of patience is justified.    

[Alfisti]

I am watching races from the 1990's and good god, a second between team mates was not unusual, the margins are so small now, if you're two tenths off like say Sainz is from Albon it was nothing in 1994, now it's 5 places.

[7MGTEsup]

I am watching races from the 1990's and good god, a second between team mates was not unusual, the margins are so small now, if you're two tenths off like say Sainz is from Albon it was nothing in 1994, now it's 5 places.

 

Most of the time there was a couple of seconds covering the top 10 in qualifying, I seem to remeber at the British grand prix in 1992 it was about 5 seconds covering the top 10.

 

Would be interesting to look at the gaps across a season back then between all team mates, bet it was more than 0.5 seconds in most cases.

 

People don't seem to ralise how tight the field is now, only 1 car was lapped at Suzuka in a clean race.

[Alfisti]

Piastri finished 3rd rather than 1st because he messed up by less than one tenth of a second in sector 1. 9/100ths.

[RedRabbit]

Yes that is correct. But one lap pace wasn't Schumacher's absolute strength.

They kept fiddling with the format though to give others a chance. With the current format he would have had many more Poles and that would change the narrative.

[Analog]

Piastri finished 3rd rather than 1st because he messed up by less than one tenth of a second in sector 1. 9/100ths.

And if anyone want to feel how "much" 1/10 is - find a metronome and set it to 600 BPM

[7MGTEsup]

And if anyone want to feel how "much" 1/10 is - find a metronome and set it to 600 BPM

 

Or simply how long it takes you to blink.

[KPower]

I am watching races from the 1990's and good god, a second between team mates was not unusual, the margins are so small now, if you're two tenths off like say Sainz is from Albon it was nothing in 1994, now it's 5 places.

He’s 1 tenth off of Albon as of today. But yes, the margins today are exceedingly small.

It makes the slower of the two drivers look far off when its not really the case.

Edited by KPower, 10 April 2025 - 12:32.