199 replies to this topic

[engineblock1]

I also would say, rating Kimi Raikkonen among top drivers and that he could be multiple WDC was the point that was smashed into pieces later on.

[Jellyfishcake]

To be fair he was a few points away from being champion in 2003 and a some engine explosions away from in 2005.

That said, I thought he'd be much stronger against Alonso in 2014 that year was an absolute disaster, showed that he was far less adaptable than the greats, the formula had gone in a direction that left him unable to be as good with

 

I know it's already been mentioned, but honestly I thought Vandoorne would have been a much stronger driver, his rookie Formula 3.5 year, then both years in GP2 made me think he was going to hit it off

Possibly a case of wrong team at the wrong time, in a tricky McLaren against a great in Alonso

[ensign14]

CART would succeed and the IRL would eventually fold, and IMS would return to CART. 

 

Well, it sort of has.

[messy]

On Vandoorne, I was the same. I maintain his 2015 GP2 title winning season was the greatest GP2/F2 title campaign ever, above Leclerc, Russell and co. Some of the stuff he did was incredible, not least basically sabotaging himself by needlessly going on the alternate strategy to, I dunno, keep things interesting? Stop him nodding off? He did it and still won in style. He was the real deal.

Moreover, he was coming up against an Alonso on the wane who’d not convincingly outpaced Jenson Button the previous two years. It was the perfect time to face Alonso. He was frustrated with Honda, would probably retire soon, and Vandoorne was going to ‘do a Ricciardo’ on him.

Nope. I mean I guess technically Fernando did retire after two years against him - and it went so bad McLaren didn’t even want to keep Vandoorne despite having two seats open.

Edited by messy, 09 April 2025 - 20:01.

[GrzegorzChyla]

I thought Nelson Piquet (sr) was a nice guy. Years later I found this forum ;-)

[PlatenGlass]

I don't think it was really a bad take for anyone to think Raikkonen was about as good as Alonso while Raikkonen was at McLaren, but I do think it was a bad take for anyone to still think this at the start of 2014!

[Zippel]

I don't think it was really a bad take for anyone to think Raikkonen was about as good as Alonso while Raikkonen was at McLaren, but I do think it was a bad take for anyone to still think this at the start of 2014!

 

In the end, Raikkonen finished up with less wins than Damon Hill, despite a far greater opportunity to accumulate them.

[messy]

Kimi did really well in 2012/13 at Lotus, following his sabbatical. I think most people thought he'd do well in 2014 - better than Alonso maybe not, but well.

I'm glad he got that one final win at Austin in 2018, though. His second Ferrari stint had some good moments that get lost in the 'Ferrari need to replace Kimi' narrative of the time. He wasn't as good as Vettel but he wasn't far behind at times. He made a qualified success out of that second spell I think - but 2014 was terrible.

[Spillage]

Based on what? They were the same level. Fisi was rated by a top 5 driver by fans and team bosses since he debuted until Alonso crushed him. Trulli was never rated as high, and course struggled in races more. Trulli not better than anyone by a long shot.

Trulli was a lot closer to Alonso in 2004 than Fisi was in 2005 or 2006. He was actually ahead of Alonso in the championship when Flavio sacked him after Monza.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Not ‘my’ particular bad take but a lot of people thought Liuzzi was nailed-on for wins and probably a championship when he got into F1.

 

Is that even a bad take though? He won the F3000 championship so I guess it’s a fairly normal prediction?

[PayasYouRace]

Not ‘my’ particular bad take but a lot of people thought Liuzzi was nailed-on for wins and probably a championship when he got into F1.

Is that even a bad take though? He won the F3000 championship so I guess it’s a fairly normal prediction?

Given their track record, anyone predicting F1 wins and championships from an F3000 champion was clearly doing a bad take by default.

[PlatenGlass]

I also think that while people picked out Liuzzi and Vandoorne based on their F3000/GP2 winning campaigns, it's worth noting that they were both in their second year in the series, which arguably matters. Winning in your debut year is arguably more indicative of future success.

 

I don't think it necessarily has to be the case - drivers come to the series with differing amounts of experience in the first place, and some teams presumably do a better job than others etc. - but it is one factor to look at.

[Ultravox]

Trulli was a lot closer to Alonso in 2004 than Fisi was in 2005 or 2006. He was actually ahead of Alonso in the championship when Flavio sacked him after Monza.

 

Only because Alonso had far more bad luck and a few mistakes in 2004 which flattered Trulli. In terms of pace the gap was the same really.

[messy]

I think Trulli was clearly closer to Alonso on 1-lap pace through 03-04 than Fisichella was in 05-06, I think their h2h was very, very close. I think Trulli and Fisi were always different drivers even though they were often lumped in together. Trulli was incredibly fast, but that was it. Fisi was a better all-rounder, but brittle.

[midgrid]

The surprise for me was how much worse Fisichella was at tyre management than Alonso.

[AlexPrime]

I expected Seb to emulate MSC at Ferrari 

[Spillage]

I think Trulli was clearly closer to Alonso on 1-lap pace through 03-04 than Fisichella was in 05-06, I think their h2h was very, very close. I think Trulli and Fisi were always different drivers even though they were often lumped in together. Trulli was incredibly fast, but that was it. Fisi was a better all-rounder, but brittle.

Yeah, it was the 1 lap pace in an era where overtaking was difficult that helped Trulli. It also got him the win in Monaco - Alonso didn't win a race in 2004, of course. He beat Alonso 8-7 in qualifying in 2004. In 2005, by contrast, Alonso beat Fisichella 14-5. This was race -fuel qualifying, or course, but it's hard to argue with stats like that. Even if Trulli wasn't a better race driver than Fisi, his results were better because he qualified better.

[Myrvold]

I also think that while people picked out Liuzzi and Vandoorne based on their F3000/GP2 winning campaigns, it's worth noting that they were both in their second year in the series, which arguably matters. Winning in your debut year is arguably more indicative of future success.

I don't think it necessarily has to be the case - drivers come to the series with differing amounts of experience in the first place, and some teams presumably do a better job than others etc. - but it is one factor to look at.

Luca Badoer won F3000 in his first season. Beating e.g Barrichello and Coulthard.
The other F3000 rookie title-winners were Stefano Modena, Christian Fittipaldi and Jörg Müller.

[Jops14]

Luca Badoer won F3000 in his first season. Beating e.g Barrichello and Coulthard.
The other F3000 rookie title-winners were Stefano Modena, Christian Fittipaldi and Jörg Müller.

Luca career was a weird one, he should have done better in F1, by the time he got a decent chance he was 40 lol

Fittipaldi also a weird one, his track record was so good in F1 he should have turned up at a better team i think

[Ultravox]

Yeah, it was the 1 lap pace in an era where overtaking was difficult that helped Trulli. It also got him the win in Monaco - Alonso didn't win a race in 2004, of course. He beat Alonso 8-7 in qualifying in 2004. In 2005, by contrast, Alonso beat Fisichella 14-5. This was race -fuel qualifying, or course, but it's hard to argue with stats like that. Even if Trulli wasn't a better race driver than Fisi, his results were better because he qualified better.

 

In 2004, there was friday 1 lap qualifying in reverse championship order. So when Alonso fell behind he always coming out before trulli on friday qualifying on a greener track, which hurt his saturday qualifying. Basically team mates did  not have equal qual track conditions in 2004 so it was not really representative and Trulli was flattered.

[Jackmancer]

Growing up watching J Verstappen, Doornbos, Albers, I never thought we'd see a succesfull Dutch F1 driver.

[PayasYouRace]

In 2004, there was friday 1 lap qualifying in reverse championship order. So when Alonso fell behind he always coming out before trulli on friday qualifying on a greener track, which hurt his saturday qualifying. Basically team mates did not have equal qual track conditions in 2004 so it was not really representative and Trulli was flattered.

That was 2003. In 2004 it was the double qualifying on Saturday. First session to set the order for the second.

What I can’t remember was if it was like 2003 and the first session was in reverse championship order, or like 2005 when it was in reverse finishing order from the last race.

[midgrid]

That was 2003. In 2004 it was the double qualifying on Saturday. First session to set the order for the second.

What I can’t remember was if it was like 2003 and the first session was in reverse championship order, or like 2005 when it was in reverse finishing order from the last race.

 

It was the latter.

[ernestomodena]

Growing up watching J Verstappen, Doornbos, Albers, I never thought we'd see a succesfull Dutch F1 driver.

Thinking of that one. I really thought Albers would do better after his dtm results.

And another one that came up. When I first saw the statistics about how long Ferrari was without a WDC before schumi I would suspects that would never happen again. Well thay still have a view years i guess

[Lennat]

I also would say, rating Kimi Raikkonen among top drivers and that he could be multiple WDC was the point that was smashed into pieces later on.

Same here. He was good, but I don't think he "deserved" more than his single title.

[Lennat]

I think Ricciardo's peaks were higher than Webbers, but his lows were lower.

This!

[loki0420]

Since McLaren Honda was announced in 2013 i predict they’d be 3-4 in qualy come Australia 2015.

[balmybaldwin]

What have been your worst motorsport takes in the past? Either an opinion you once held that now seems ridiculous, or a prediction that turned out to be totally wrong?

 

I fully expected Carlos Sainz to absolutely destroy Alex Albon at Williams this year. There's still time for that to happen but so far we've seen the exact opposite.

 

I thought Valtteri Bottas would be better at Mercedes than Nico Rosberg was, and I was also simultaneously sure that Pascal Wehrlein was the best option for that drive. Clearly, I massively underestimated how good Hamilton and Rosberg were.

I absolutely dispised that horribly arrogant little twerp Sebastian Vettel in his first 5 years or so. He grew in to one of my favourite personalities in the sport, and his driving manners and sportsmanship where superb (if you forget one afternoon in Baku)

[perky]

After 2005 I considered about 4 to 8 further championships for Alonso practically as inevitable. 

[George Costanza]

You mean the 1997 season where JV despite being apparently "no match" for Schumi won the title and Schumi was forced to try and ram him off the road when about to get overtaken for the lead at Jerez? OK.

I'll give you 95, although if Hill was no match for Schumi in general that doesn't explain Suzuka 94.

Given the Williams car advantage which is it was the best car, especially in the first half and given how slow Ferrari was in the first half of the season, yes, Jacques needed that advantage to beat Michael.

[George Costanza]

Based on what? They were the same level. Fisi was rated by a top 5 driver by fans and team bosses since he debuted until Alonso crushed him. Trulli was never rated as high, and course struggled in races more. Trulli not better than anyone by a long shot.

Jarno was faster than Giancarlo over one lap by a huge margin.

Fernando and Jarno were very close on qualifying speed. Race pace, of course was a very different story as Fernando is one of the best ever in that department.

But Jarno has more talent than Giancarlo. And Oliver Panis who was Trulli's teammate at Prost, said Jarno was one of the fastest drivers over a one lap that he has ever seen.

Edited by George Costanza, 11 April 2025 - 04:33.

[George Costanza]

I expected Seb to emulate MSC at Ferrari

To be fair, Seb wasn't going to do that, not with Mercedes being the clear front runner.

[George Costanza]

Yeah, it was the 1 lap pace in an era where overtaking was difficult that helped Trulli. It also got him the win in Monaco - Alonso didn't win a race in 2004, of course. He beat Alonso 8-7 in qualifying in 2004. In 2005, by contrast, Alonso beat Fisichella 14-5. This was race -fuel qualifying, or course, but it's hard to argue with stats like that. Even if Trulli wasn't a better race driver than Fisi, his results were better because he qualified better.

Absolutely agreed here. This is what I was trying to explain about one lap speed.

[TheMidnight]

Nothing overly wild, but a few I've gotten wrong:

 

Davide Valsecchi would come into F1 and be the next Hamilton

 

Heikki Kovalainen & Caterham would score points. Mike Gascoyne promised us :-) 

 

Button wouldn't get a seat for 2009

 

WEC would limp on and die around 2020. After everyone left the top class by the end of 2017 leaving only Toyota, I thought the top class would be gone by the end of 2018 and eventually the series would fold soon after

 

Peugeot would do something/anything since returning to WEC. French team in a French organised series, surely that's a dead cert for a Le Mans win? They're been embarrassingly bad. 

Edited by TheMidnight, 11 April 2025 - 07:58.

[Cornholio]

Sauber should gave gone with Bernoldi over Kimi in 2001.

Fisichella would have the edge over Alonso when he returned to Renault.

Hamilton was this generation's Jacques Villeneuve (circa 2007-09).

[noikeee]

Nothing overly wild, but a few I've gotten wrong:

Davide Valsecchi would come into F1 and be the next Hamilton

That was very very wild. He was pretty damn average as a driver, one of the least impressive champions at that level (GP2), took him years to be any good. Much better as a commentator!

[SamH123]

I thought Norris was overhyped in his early career and was just fortunate to come up against a more beatable team-mate than Vandoorne

[Alfisti]

I thought Norris was overhyped in his early career and was just fortunate to come up against a more beatable team-mate than Vandoorne

 

Yeah I never really rated Norris until the 2nd year with Ricciardo, I figured Dan just lost it but gotta say wrong on that one, he's pretty dang quick and adaptable. Still punchable though. Very punchable.

[Beri]

A recent take; after a dominant 2023, I never saw a McLaren resurgence coming. I firmly believed both Verstappen and Red Bull would ease to the 2024 and 2025 championships.

[messy]

Jarno was faster than Giancarlo over one lap by a huge margin.
Fernando and Jarno were very close on qualifying speed. Race pace, of course was a very different story as Fernando is one of the best ever in that department.
But Jarno has more talent than Giancarlo. And Oliver Panis who was Trulli's teammate at Prost, said Jarno was one of the fastest drivers over a one lap that he has ever seen.

To be fair to Fisi I think he was very quick as well, but probably on the slide in that department by 2005. In the late 90s if there was a driver who unexpectedly stuck his midfield car up on the second row of the grid right among the big boys, it was usually Fisi. That's why I found him exciting. Hakkinen and Schumacher are on the front row, fine, hang on Fisichella's Benetton is right behind them. He converted some of those into near wins against all logic too, like Hockenheim '97 and Canada '98. He was brilliant at putting the cat among the pigeons, albeit only occasionally.

[AnttiK]

He converted some of those into near wins against all logic too, like Hockenheim '97 and Canada '98.

I'm afraid Canada '98 was one of those races where Fisi converted a win into a second place against all logic.

[Jellyfishcake]

The fact that 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2000 driving for Jordan first, then Benetton managed to get podiums 4 years in a row is quite remarkable, definitely don't think he was at his peak come 2005 (again someone who suited a different formula to what F1 was in that time) 

But yeah, he was someone who starred outside of that front running pack and really made a career out of it

[Disgrace]

Yeah I never really rated Norris until the 2nd year with Ricciardo, I figured Dan just lost it but gotta say wrong on that one, he's pretty dang quick and adaptable. Still punchable though. Very punchable.

Do you also like to punch teddy bears?

[garoidb]

To be fair to Fisi I think he was very quick as well, but probably on the slide in that department by 2005. In the late 90s if there was a driver who unexpectedly stuck his midfield car up on the second row of the grid right among the big boys, it was usually Fisi. That's why I found him exciting. Hakkinen and Schumacher are on the front row, fine, hang on Fisichella's Benetton is right behind them. He converted some of those into near wins against all logic too, like Hockenheim '97 and Canada '98. He was brilliant at putting the cat among the pigeons, albeit only occasionally.

 

Speed is always relative to who else is around, and the early-to-mid  2000s saw the emergence of Alonso, Montoya, Raikkonen, Button and perhaps Ralf Schumacher (only slightly softened by the departure of the still quick Hakkinen). This is arguably what happened to Jacques Villeneuve too.

[Beri]

Do you also like to punch teddy bears?

No, he doesn't. But puppies on the other hand..

[messy]

I'm afraid Canada '98 was one of those races where Fisi converted a win into a second place against all logic.

No arguments there, in honesty.

I suppose the point is that he at least got himself into the position to let them slip through his fingers. He was very good at finishing second, terrible if he got a sniff of a win. Japan 2005 too.

[Claudius]

No arguments there, in honesty.

I suppose the point is that he at least got himself into the position to let them slip through his fingers. He was very good at finishing second, terrible if he got a sniff of a win. Japan 2005 too.

Don’t forget China 06.

[messy]

He clattered the barriers and spun at Monaco in '98 while catching Hakkinen too, I think.

[Jops14]

I think Fisi was one of those guys who was great in the midfield, but not st the front…

Webber I think didnt have his 1 lap speed by the time he got a good drive. 04/05 Webber in that 09/10 Red Bull wins 1 of those champs

[messy]

I think there are a lot of parallels between Webber and Fisichella not least that both got their big chance at the front at a relatively late point in their careers, at 33-ish. Webber still had the fire, Fisi didn't. He's admitted as much.