59 replies to this topic

[Afterburner]

A topic preemptively made in the same fashion as Red Bull's recent management decisions.

 

Despite winning in Japan, the RB21 appears to be a truly difficult car to drive and nowhere near fast enough to take the fight to McLaren. If Hadjar can get the Racing Bulls car into a Top 6 on a slower tyre (yeah it's practice, but we're making decisions like Red Bull management, remember?) surely it's really the closer car to the top of the field, ergo it's in Red Bull's best interest to have their best driver in their best car.

 

So when does it happen, and for how long? Do they swap him between teams as they predict each car's peak performance to change? Are there any consequences to doing this? Should there be?

 

Have at it.

[Benchulo]

I say give Verstappen a go in the Racing Bulls in Saudi Arabia FP1.

[PlatenGlass]

I'd say since winning in Japan it's too much of a risk as he's now announced himself as a championship contender.

[Myrvold]

I do like that the majority have done like I did. Voted "no", "this is nonsense" and "you do whatever it takes"

[Anderis]

LOL, Verstapen has just won a race on merit, surely he's going to swap to a car that has been in the midfield this year any time now.

Edited by Anderis, 11 April 2025 - 16:19.

[Anja]

It would be very deeply embarrassing for the whole Red Bull organization so as fun/interesting as it would be, it's not gonna happen. Their image already took a big hit with the whole Perez/Lawson/Tsunoda saga, they can't afford to make themselves look any more foolish. 

 

And that's assuming the idea even has any merit, which it probably doesn't 

Edited by Anja, 11 April 2025 - 16:23.

[Ali623]

It obviously won't happen, but I'd love to see it just out of curiosity. In Australia, Tsunoda was only 2 tenths behind Verstappen in qualifying. Hadjar was only 2.5 tenths behind him in China and 6 tenths behind in Japan (where Verstappen pulled out a mighty lap).

 

I reckon due to the car being way more compliant than the Red Bull, he wouldn't have the same massive gap compared to his teammate but you could easily argue he'd at least perform similarly in it in qualifying, if not better.

[Fortymark]

If no team were allowed to make any setup changes whatsoever during the weekend, it´s possible that the Racing bull could be near the RedBull

But C´mon, after the team in Milton Keynes has spent an awful lot of time in the simulator and the engineers have figured out how to setup the car, 

it´s clearly a faster car than the RacingBull at the end of the race weekend. 

[garoidb]

Could he do an FP1 at some race to gauge the differences between the two cars? He is going to have to hand over his Red Bull car for an FP1 at some stage this year, so you could kill two birds with one stone.

[SophieB]

I don’t think they’d do it on political grounds, not worth the grief in making it clear that they have four cars to play with.

[garoidb]

I don’t think they’d do it on political grounds, not worth the grief in making it clear that they have four cars to play with.

 

That's true and a good point. If they even did it once, they (and we) would never hear the end of it. 

[Colbul1]

Could you imagine the scene at Monaco, Max turns up as a Racing Bulls driver for the race as the car is more compliant in the slower corners. The fall out would be epic.

[Laptom]

I hope they try it once

[SamH123]

They asked Horner today about putting VER in a RB for a practice session to give a 'baseline' and Horner said no in a defensive tone (sort of smirking like it was a stupid question)

Edited by SamH123, 11 April 2025 - 16:44.

[beachdrifter]

The Red Bull is obviously a fantastic car capable of competing for poles and race wins.

 

The Racing Bull isn't.

[rjtart]

I voted no, but I'd love to see it happen.

[Ferrim]

As fun as it would be, it won't happen.

[Mc_Silver]

Christian Horner was asked about this in Japan and he responded with a smile saying they are only using our last year's car components

[Beri]

I once got a warning point for trolling and flamebait. Not wishing it upon someone else, but this thread certainly reeks of this too.

[jonklug]

Don't think they can do it even if they'd want to, because of sponsor commitments.

[le chat noir]

This is why they shouldn’t have paid off Perez. They should have put him in the RB for a true gauge. Lawson doesn’t provide any comparative baseline. And nor does Tsunoda without a stable car comparison to someone else known. Ricciardo wasn’t that either. Shocking how much the messed up their data points. For that alone, it’s worth giving him a test. But would need to be outside of competitive sessions. Just as Schumacher drove a Sauber

[DW46]

Baiting nonsense, no one genuinely believes Minardi is faster then Red Bull, they just have dross in the other 3 seats.

Red Bull is 2nd/3rd fastest track dependent.

[MikeTekRacing]

Red Bull is clearly faster on paper. The window to extract that is way too narrow. 

[Hellenic tifosi]

If testing was allowed I bet that Max would have definitely driven a Racing Bull in plain livery by now.

Edited by Hellenic tifosi, 11 April 2025 - 21:24.

[pjv1990]

Anyone who seriously thinks this is an option/could happen is seriously unwell. I’d give more chance to the Danica Patrick lizard people taking over the world and instituting a new religion where we’re all forced to worship unripened avocados and openly declare Ukyo Katayama as the greatest racing driver of all time.

[Gravelngrass]

Don’t know why all the flak. As someone has already said, the average results of the RB are better than that of the RBR and now we have Tsunoda as a benchmark. Granted, the RBR might be more difficult to drive and possibly only Ver is currently capable of extracting the maximum from it, but why not give it a try? It honestly would seem as the RB is a better all round car than the RBR. Does Ver want to be a championship contender? Why not give him the best car possible to increase his probability of competing for the WDC?

[Afterburner]

If Red Bull really wanted to go full piranha club they could abandon development of the RB21 and invest all their focus on next year’s car, put Verstappen in the RB, and then have RB go full development on the 2025 car at the expense of 2026.

Then they could sell RB to the highest bidder with it having won the championship so nobody can complain about them having two teams anymore.

[baddog]

Damned sure that back in the 'actually good old' days of open testing Max would have done a bunch of running somewhere in the RB vs the RBR to figure this **** out.

[beachdrifter]

Don’t know why all the flak. As someone has already said, the average results of the RB are better than that of the RBR and now we have Tsunoda as a benchmark. Granted, the RBR might be more difficult to drive and possibly only Ver is currently capable of extracting the maximum from it, but why not give it a try? It honestly would seem as the RB is a better all round car than the RBR. Does Ver want to be a championship contender? Why not give him the best car possible to increase his probability of competing for the WDC?

The Red Bull is obviously an amazing car that beat both McLarens to pole and the race win just a week ago. Verstappen is virtually tied for the lead in the championship (62-61).

 

It makes zero sense to give Verstappen an inferior car now. And yes, they have the data and told us many times.

[renzmann]

There's a lot of reasons that speak against it:

 - Sponsors

 - The morale of the RBR engineers ("OK, Max is driving for the sister team now, but we have faith in you building a superb car for 2026!")

 - Politics (Sophie's point)

 - ...

 

On the other hand, they loose Verstappen if they don't give him a good car, and that may well be happening right now. If the Imola update doesn't get the RB21 back on track and the flexi wing TD doesn't redefine the grid order in Spain, RBR are simply stuck with a car that has no business being on the podium, let alone win races. For 15 long races. In this painful scenario (which is very realistic IMO), it comes down to Verstappen. If Verstappen claims the VCARB, all of the reasons above are no longer a priority.

 

Ultimately, I voted "no", because I can't see Verstappen begging for a VCARB and it's just too weird generally. But it certainly is a "legitimate question"!

 

BTW, you forgot to add the question whether we'd like to see it happen. I want it to happen so bad

Edited by renzmann, 12 April 2025 - 06:28.

[UncleSam]

Max would find the Racing Bulls car to understeer like a pig

[Anderis]

Don’t know why all the flak. As someone has already said, the average results of the RB are better than that of the RBR

RBR is 3rd in WCC, RB is 8th, not sure how that can be spun as RB having better average results.

 

It's of course very possible that a top driver like Verstappen would've achieved significantly better results with that Racing Bulls car but I can't see how anyone thinks it would've been better than 2nd, 4th, 1st that he achieved with the Red Bull. Racing Bulls have never been close to such results during the entire existence of their team. Why would anyone think they suddenly have a car like that right now?

[MikeTekRacing]

Max would find the Racing Bulls car to understeer like a pig

Or he would find it nicely balanced, easier to drive but with a lower ceiling.

[PayasYouRace]

The answer is obvious. Hadjar would be leading the championship in that Red Bull.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I don’t think they’d do it on political grounds, not worth the grief in making it clear that they have four cars to play with.

This is one of the reasons I dislike Red Bull owning two teams. People can theorise all they want about on-track ‘orders’ to the junior team, but it certainly gives them some wriggle room in situations like this.

 

Say VCARB some how produced a car that leads the field even with lesser drivers…they could easily move Verstappen over to guarantee a championship. I’m not a fan of that thought.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Is it within the rules for a driver to drive for two teams during the weekend, anyway? For example giving Max an FP1 in the RB.

 

There’s probably an embarrassingly obvious case but I can’t think of one.

[renzmann]

This is one of the reasons I dislike Red Bull owning two teams. People can theorise all they want about on-track ‘orders’ to the junior team, but it certainly gives them some wriggle room in situations like this.

 

Say VCARB some how produced a car that leads the field even with lesser drivers…they could easily move Verstappen over to guarantee a championship. I’m not a fan of that thought.

I agree of course, but to read it as bluntly as you put it here, I wonder what it would do to Verstappen's WDC in terms of legacy. On the one hand, he'd win at another team and in a non-Newey car. Also, he'd be WDC in a freaking Toro Rosso - talk about greatness! However, the fairness aspect might play a role at looking back at such a WDC. Verstappen's critics would remind us that Verstappen had "only won in 2025" because of the unfairness of him having two teams working for him. Maybe that's another reason not go for it.

[Nobody]

Interesting though any other driver in the energy drink's camp is interchangeable at any moment, Max isn't just any driver of course.

[renzmann]

Is it within the rules for a driver to drive for two teams during the weekend, anyway? For example giving Max an FP1 in the RB.

 

There’s probably an embarrassingly obvious case but I can’t think of one.

I think it's a no-go, at least in this case. It would imply a level of coordination between the teams I think simply cannot be legal. Imagine Verstappen returning to RBR on Saturday telling his engineers: "Guys, VCARB does x and that really helps me in the corners!" and lo and behold, two weeks later the RB21 has the same feature.

[jradicals]

Is it within the rules for a driver to drive for two teams during the weekend, anyway? For example giving Max an FP1 in the RB.
 
There’s probably an embarrassingly obvious case but I can’t think of one.

Nyck de Vries drove for Aston Martin in FP1 at Monza 2022 before taking Albon's seat at Williams from Saturday. But I guess he was never an actual entry at the point he drove the AM, just a young driver FP1 fill-in.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Demote or Promote?

[RedRabbit]

This is one of the reasons I dislike Red Bull owning two teams. People can theorise all they want about on-track ‘orders’ to the junior team, but it certainly gives them some wriggle room in situations like this.

Say VCARB some how produced a car that leads the field even with lesser drivers…they could easily move Verstappen over to guarantee a championship. I’m not a fan of that thought.

And yet people are ok with "demoting" other drivers to the sister team. Lawson was demoted and his results improved. Zero outcry. Not even from Zak Brown.

In fact, people are mostly smirking about it.

[RedRabbit]

Interesting though any other driver in the energy drink's camp is interchangeable at any moment, Max isn't just any driver of course.

This. It's a bit hypocritical that it's ok to switch the other drivers around without fuss, but if Max were to do it, it's morally wrong and potentially illegal.

[PayasYouRace]

And yet people are ok with "demoting" other drivers to the sister team. Lawson was demoted and his results improved. Zero outcry. Not even from Zak Brown.

In fact, people are mostly smirking about it.

Do you think it might be the case that people aren’t ok with either?

[IrvTheSwerve]

And yet people are ok with "demoting" other drivers to the sister team. Lawson was demoted and his results improved. Zero outcry. Not even from Zak Brown.

In fact, people are mostly smirking about it.

Indeed. It literally gives Red Bull a ‘subs bench’ when no other teams have one. Of course, teams can replace their drivers, but not with one that is Grand Prix ready.

[ArchieTech]

Teams are limited to a maximum of four drivers per season (ignoring the rookie FP1 appearances.)

Red Bull and Racing Bulls are both at three already, and swapping in Verstappen (presumably with Hadjar) would take them to four. Not sure if they could get an exception after that if someone was sick or injured for a while.

Edited by ArchieTech, 12 April 2025 - 09:25.

[garoidb]

I agree of course, but to read it as bluntly as you put it here, I wonder what it would do to Verstappen's WDC in terms of legacy. On the one hand, he'd win at another team and in a non-Newey car. Also, he'd be WDC in a freaking Toro Rosso - talk about greatness! However, the fairness aspect might play a role at looking back at such a WDC. Verstappen's critics would remind us that Verstappen had "only won in 2025" because of the unfairness of him having two teams working for him. Maybe that's another reason not go for it.

 

Fangio won one of his titles having driven for two different teams in the season, so it would not be unprecedented historically. I realise the underlying circumstances were different but just thought I would mention it.

[beachdrifter]

Both Racing Bulls missed Q3.

 

Both Red Bulls made Q3.

 

Lawson is still slow.

 

No surprises here.

[baddog]

Both Racing Bulls missed Q3.

 

Both Red Bulls made Q3.

 

Lawson is still slow.

 

No surprises here.

To be fair to Lawson, his DRS malfunctioned or he would have been through.

[Gary Davies]

The answer is obvious. Hadjar would be leading the championship in that Red Bull.

Bravo! 

 

I do like a bit of light hearted stirring now and then.