59 replies to this topic

[Analog]

To be fair to Lawson, his DRS malfunctioned or he would have been through.

Did he not lift the throttle which made it close?

[Baddoer]

Are you serious.

[Marklar]

it would be interesting for a testing session, but the claim that VCARB is quicker is nonsense anyway. they clearly arent in races and while it's closer in qualifying ultimately the Red Bull has more potential (just more fluctuation). I suspect if Max was to move to VCARB he'd be regulary best of the rest, maybe bothering a underperforming top car, quite likely beating Red Bull if the car traits remain, and his gap to his team mate would be smaller

[MissingApex]

it would be interesting for a testing session, but the claim that VCARB is quicker is nonsense anyway. they clearly arent in races and while it's closer in qualifying ultimately the Red Bull has more potential (just more fluctuation). I suspect if Max was to move to VCARB he'd be regulary best of the rest, maybe bothering a underperforming top car, quite likely beating Red Bull if the car traits remain, and his gap to his team mate would be smaller

So, what’s the average gap between Max and his teammates? Is it 8 tenths?

What if we, just for fun, deduct this from the quickest qualifying time of the RB (I didn’t do the math), where would the RB car be in the last 3 races?

[renzmann]

So, what’s the average gap between Max and his teammates? Is it 8 tenths?

What if we, just for fun, deduct this from the quickest qualifying time of the RB (I didn’t do the math), where would the RB car be in the last 3 races?

It's 7 tenths, but some of that is due to the car's characteristics only he can manage. I'd say it's 2-3 tenths in easier to drive cars with most team-mates, maybe 4 tenths with rookies like Hadjar and Lawson. Still, it adds up. He'd probably qualify higher with a VCARB right now.

 

I agree with Marklar though. Race pace is a different story.

[Seb33]

it would be interesting for a testing session, but the claim that VCARB is quicker is nonsense anyway. 

 

This is F1, things are constantly changing. "Racing Bull" is just a name and not a guarantee for failure. Just because a team has smaller budged, doesn't mean the car is doomed forever and has to perform worse than a RBR. Sometimes "simpler" things just work better.

 

BTW, what is Alpine doing in front? "It's just Alpine", right? According to this logic this should be nonsense as well. Vettel's or Hulkenberg's first poles were probably out of body experiences that had nothing to do with their cars performing better in a given window.

 

Based on performance, Racing Bull had clearly the better car. It's not even a speculation.

 

 

That's why it's a valid question. Sadly they will never allow Max to switch teams, for a good reason. Until now RBR could hide behind Verstappen's performances, as he was masking their problems and incompetence for a very long time. Should he place the sister team comfortably in front, it would be a disaster for Horner and the whole RBR organisation. It could actually cost him his job.

[kumo7]

BS

[Marklar]

 

This is F1, things are constantly changing. "Racing Bull" is just a name and not a guarantee for failure. Just because a team has smaller budged, doesn't mean the car is doomed forever and has to perform worse than a RBR. Sometimes "simpler" things just work better.

 

BTW, what is Alpine doing in front? "It's just Alpine", right? According to this logic this should be nonsense as well. Vettel's or Hulkenberg's first poles were probably out of body experiences that had nothing to do with their cars performing better in a given window.

 

Based on performance, Racing Bull had clearly the better car. It's not even a speculation.

 

 

That's why it's a valid question. Sadly they will never allow Max to switch teams, for a good reason. Until now RBR could hide behind Verstappen's performances, as he was masking their problems and incompetence for a very long time. Should he place the sister team comfortably in front, it would be a disaster for Horner and the whole RBR organisation. It could actually cost him his job.

 

based on what performance? They have a couple of points (okay, partly because their strategy team sucks balls) and Tsunoda just outqualified both cars as well.

It's quite clear Racing Bulls is slower, in races certainly. In qualifying the story is as mentioned more complicated. On peak performance not, on average perhaps.

I also think your comparison doesnt hold water because VCARB is Red Bull's team basically. If their car was better you would bet they would develop into that direction, but they are not, because they know their car is quicker, it just takes the driver to unlock it. Which Max certainly is 95 % of the time.

Edited by Marklar, 13 April 2025 - 15:02.

[Laster]

Racing Bulls finished 14th and 17th. They looked quick in the practice sessions. But it unravelled in qualifying, and well they were never going to make places through strategy. Lawson picking fights with everyone also didn't help.

Red Bull maybe a difficult car but it is blatantly the faster car. It's trouble is it induces a lot of errors - so bad for qualifying when you reallt want to lean on the car. If a driver can hook it up like Max does pretty every weekend, it is clear of the Racing Bulls. Also the gaps are smaller during qualifying so you're more likely to get a driver who hooks up a lap, beating what should otherwise be a faster car.

Come the race the pace of the Red Bull shines through. It maybe a horrible car to drive but it remains faster than any car in the midfield, even a day like today when it was all over the place, and Red Bull fluffed pitstops and made poor choice of tyres. It was still quicker than anything in the midfield, even in Yuki's hands let alone Max's.

[Gravelngrass]

RBR is 3rd in WCC, RB is 8th, not sure how that can be spun as RB having better average results.

It's of course very possible that a top driver like Verstappen would've achieved significantly better results with that Racing Bulls car but I can't see how anyone thinks it would've been better than 2nd, 4th, 1st that he achieved with the Red Bull. Racing Bulls have never been close to such results during the entire existence of their team. Why would anyone think they suddenly have a car like that right now?

Nuance. Ver is a statistical anomaly. Look at the results of the other drivers. Look at what they say about the setup difficulty of the cars.
As far as RB historically not being close to the results of RBR, well, that’s just a fallacious argument.