27 replies to this topic

[mhno1f]

For once,  the stewards/fia were sensible with George and the DRS issue, but one thing that has been annoying me for a while - is someone like Lando being (potentially) penalized for a failed overtake against Charles - for going off track. 

For me it was marginal as to whether he was given space,  or just forced to run wide - but no issue with a lack of penalty for Charles - but unless I got it wrong, this was the trigger for Lando's black & white flag. He didn't gain an advantage, overtaking is so rare at the moment. The last thing we should be doing is putting drivers off from "giving it a go". 

Edited by mhno1f, 16 April 2025 - 10:10.

[Anderis]

How great it would be to have tracks where staying within track limits is the fastest way to drive an F1 car...

[Beri]

Imagine the same situation only a different outcome:

1) Driver puts in the overtake. Doesnt make it stick. Goes outside the track limits and gets no track limit warning.

2) Driver puts in the overtake. Does make it stick. Goes outside the track limits and gets no track limit warning.

 

Everyone would scream for justice in the second example. Yet it is the one thing that you do propose. You do create a grey area by being lenient in certain occasions and not being lenient or strict all of the time. 

[Beri]

How great it would be to have tracks where staying within track limits is the fastest way to drive an F1 car...

 

Lets put a wall on the edge of the white line. Or how about this; invent some matter that can be installed on the ground next to the track limit. A matter that does not offer grip nor any stable surface to ride upon. A matter that, perhaps, could inflict some damage to the car if a driver doesnt respect the track limits. Perhaps it is also possible to hand this matter the characteristic that it could slow an out of control car down too. And lets call this matter; gravel. 

[7MGTEsup]

Lets put a wall on the edge of the white line. Or how about this; invent some matter that can be installed on the ground next to the track limit. A matter that does not offer grip nor any stable surface to ride upon. A matter that, perhaps, could inflict some damage to the car if a driver doesnt respect the track limits. Perhaps it is also possible to hand this matter the characteristic that it could slow an out of control car down too. And lets call this matter; gravel. 

 

The problem with that is drivers still don't respect it and keep dipping a wheel in it and you end up with a track full of gravel.

 

Make the curbs half the width of a car, with an incline of about 50mm across the width. The other side of the curb is a rain gully about 1/2 meter wide that is 50mm below the level of the curb. If you run wide you trash the under side of the car so the incentive is to stay inside the limit of the curb. They mostly manage it on street tracks with walls so it shouldn't be difficult.

[917k]

Overtaking is hardly (currently) rare…certain tracks have always been difficult but we are still seeing more overtaking at most tracks than at almost any point in our history.

[Stephane]

Part of the runoffs as they are is because old school kerbs, grass and gravel damaged the cars too much, which cost too much.

[Beri]

The problem with that is drivers still don't respect it and keep dipping a wheel in it and you end up with a track full of gravel.

 

Make the curbs half the width of a car, with an incline of about 50mm across the width. The other side of the curb is a rain gully about 1/2 meter wide that is 50mm below the level of the curb. If you run wide you trash the under side of the car so the incentive is to stay inside the limit of the curb. They mostly manage it on street tracks with walls so it shouldn't be difficult.

 

And here we are, discussing an issue like that, whilst for the previous 50 years this never was any issue.

[7MGTEsup]

Part of the runoffs as they are is because old school kerbs, grass and gravel damaged the cars too much, which cost too much.

 

Make the driver pay for the damage?

[7MGTEsup]

And here we are, discussing an issue like that, whilst for the previous 50 years this never was any issue.

 

I think you will find the gravel traps were further from the track and the curbs much more punishing so drivers gave them a wide birth. Just go back and watch an early 90's race from Hockenheim and marvel at the height of the curbs in the chicanes.

[Beri]

I think you will find the gravel traps were further from the track and the curbs much more punishing so drivers gave them a wide birth. Just go back and watch an early 90's race from Hockenheim and marvel at the height of the curbs in the chicanes.

 

I agree. But back then gravel on track after a spin or some other mishap was a thing too. And suddenly it is a major issue now.

[7MGTEsup]

I agree. But back then gravel on track after a spin or some other mishap was a thing too. And suddenly it is a major issue now.

 

Maybe it would be less of an issue if marshals waved the slippey surface flag if someone has gone off and dragged a load of gravel onto the track? 

[Sterzo]

... but one thing that has been annoying me for a while - is someone like Lando being (potentially) penalized for a failed overtake against Charles - for going off track. 

The problem is you are (I think) conflating two things. He wouldn't be penalised for a failed overtaking attempt. He would be penalised for going off track. If Leclerc forced him off, then he would be penalised instead.

 

Looking at it another way, if someone goes off track then someone is to blame. You can't drive around outside the track and say, ah well, nobody's fault.

[PayasYouRace]

I agree. But back then gravel on track after a spin or some other mishap was a thing too. And suddenly it is a major issue now.

Helmut Marko probably would say it was a major issue back then too.

[Myrvold]

Helmut Marko probably would say it was a major issue back then too.

 

He can quite clearly see the issue indeed.

 

But that wasn't a gravel-trap (which in some places are sand).

[Beri]

Helmut Marko probably would say it was a major issue back then too.

Exceptions are always available. And the size of rock of Marko was certainly not a gravel pebble. Fact the matter is that gravel will very very likely not cause any personal injuries anymore to drivers.

[nivoglibina]

No injury, but Alonso spun off in Australia;

 

https://www.racefans...ng-line-alonso/

[Rediscoveryx]

I honestly don't get why coping with some gravel on the track isn't just considered a natural part of the challenge that drivers should be prepared to deal with.

 

Of all of the excuses not to put gravel traps back in, this must be very close to the top of the nonsense-list.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 17 April 2025 - 10:47.

[PayasYouRace]

There’s a slight irony that this discussion is taking place about an incident at the junction with the Outer Circuit at Bahrain, so there wouldn’t be gravel out there anyway.

[RedRabbit]

I am not in favour of a track limit strike for every excursion.

Some context should apply as not each situation is the same. We're on the path to the ridiculous track limit rules of MotoGP at this rate where I have seen riders fall, pick up their bike and still get a strike.

[RedRabbit]

I honestly don't get why coping with some gravel on the track isn't just considered a natural part of the challenge that drivers should be prepared to deal with.

Of all of the excuses not to put gravel traps back in, this must be very close to the top of the nonsense-list.

Track hazard does not equal natural challenge. Such a bizarre argument.

[PlatenGlass]

I am not in favour of a track limit strike for every excursion.

Some context should apply as not each situation is the same. We're on the path to the ridiculous track limit rules of MotoGP at this rate where I have seen riders fall, pick up their bike and still get a strike.

It is ridiculous. A strike should not be for simply going off, but for using the off-track as your racing line.

Obviously this introduces a subjective element but the whole thing is ridiculous anyway. By making it slower off track (gravel etc.) the whole problem can be made to go away.

It's very unsatisfactory watching races / qualifying where laps are deleted and strikes are given. I simply cannot relate to the idea that this makes things better in any way. Worse to watch, presumably worse to compete in and requires more interference in the race.

[Celloman]

I am not in favour of a track limit strike for every excursion.

Some context should apply as not each situation is the same. We're on the path to the ridiculous track limit rules of MotoGP at this rate where I have seen riders fall, pick up their bike and still get a strike.

Then what does that imply? If track limit strikes are not given for every excursion, then naturally drivers are going to take advantage and cut more. There is no other outcome here.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Just design tracks properly. Problem solved.

[Nemo1965]

The problem with that is drivers still don't respect it and keep dipping a wheel in it and you end up with a track full of gravel.

 

Make the curbs half the width of a car, with an incline of about 50mm across the width. The other side of the curb is a rain gully about 1/2 meter wide that is 50mm below the level of the curb. If you run wide you trash the under side of the car so the incentive is to stay inside the limit of the curb. They mostly manage it on street tracks with walls so it shouldn't be difficult.

 

This made me chuckle. Mark Donohue alleged dat his nemesis Parnelli Jones often put the inside front wheel on the INSIDE of the grass verge of the apex and if he really was in a hurry, Parnelli would put the OUTSIDE front wheel on the apex. Donohue: 'Of course that sprays a little dirt and gravel onto the track, but I guess he figured the other cars would have cleaned it off by the time he got back round again.'

 

So you've got a point there.

[sketchy2001]

I honestly don't get why coping with some gravel on the track isn't just considered a natural part of the challenge that drivers should be prepared to deal with.

 

Of all of the excuses not to put gravel traps back in, this must be very close to the top of the nonsense-list.

 

 

Track hazard does not equal natural challenge. Such a bizarre argument.

 

"natural part of the challenge" != "natural challenge".

Sorry couldn't let that straw man go...

 

I agree with the opinion that not every excursion should be a strike but where does the line get drawn?

• If you go too wide (or tight) on your own then it is clear cut.
• If you go wide (or tight) while attempting a pass then when have you legitimately been forced off the track?

Technically the latter shouldn't be a problem as all drivers are required to give "racing room" ...but that doesn't appear to be enforced in most cases.

Maybe ditch the idea that the driver ahead by 1cm has all rights to a corner?

[F1 Mike]

An example of why the tracks with tarmac runoff are not the answer.

Years gone by, someone overtakes on the grass - big balls hero

Today someone overtakes on tarmac runoff - cheat

Everything about tarmac runoff is negative to me.

[jensfan09]

Imagine the same situation only a different outcome:
1) Driver puts in the overtake. Doesnt make it stick. Goes outside the track limits and gets no track limit warning.
2) Driver puts in the overtake. Does make it stick. Goes outside the track limits and gets no track limit warning.

Everyone would scream for justice in the second example. Yet it is the one thing that you do propose. You do create a grey area by being lenient in certain occasions and not being lenient or strict all of the time.

The remedy for 2 is overtaking outside the track which is a separate penalty but if a third party is the reason a car goes off the track during a battle, the driver shouldn’t get a track limits strike, as it could be detrimental to that driver continuing the attack and risking another strike.