52 replies to this topic

[le chat noir]

Why don’t we have them?

Don’t need gravel, don’t need concrete walls, don’t need gullies, don’t need damaging kerbs, definitely don’t need disputable penalties and hawk eye cameras.

Plonking a polystyrene wall. Add some advertising. They’ll respect it till they don’t. Replays will be great. Debris but no reconstruction needed. Jobs a good ‘in.

[Afterburner]

[chdphd]

The first chicane at Monza has a few

[FLB]

Emmanuele Pirro, Hockenheim 1989.

[PayasYouRace]

 

It sounds like a good idea, but you'll just end up with endless safety cars to clear up the debris.

[Ali_G]

We do need gravel. Just use more bloody gravel.

[jonpollak]

Isn't that what Tec-Pro barriers are?

 

Jp

[ANF]

Nah, what we need is those good old Monza speed bumps. They'll respect them until they don't!

[le chat noir]

Tec pro is more solid. I’m simply talking about the cut table chicanes and track limit corners. Put up a visual barrier that disappears when impacted. May damage a front wing. Will cause a SC. Clear up, but don’t replace.

Could have a default drive through penalty for anyone that hits it - whether ‘pushed’ off or not.

Therefore carries risk, but no danger. Visual guidance that can be seen. Spectacle on destruction. Advertising when not. Chance of a SC for simple infraction. It’s all in the win column as far as the promoters are concerned and removes silly politics of stewarding.

[SophieB]

Emmanuele Pirro, Hockenheim 1989.

I somehow had never heard about this, thanks. Extraordinary story.

[jee]

Emmanuele Pirro, Hockenheim 1989.

Didn't he just colapse because he thought to have hit solid concrete walls? Maybe they need to be painted in a nicer colour with sweet cartoon figures on them.

[PayasYouRace]

Tec pro is more solid. I’m simply talking about the cut table chicanes and track limit corners. Put up a visual barrier that disappears when impacted. May damage a front wing. Will cause a SC. Clear up, but don’t replace.

Could have a default drive through penalty for anyone that hits it - whether ‘pushed’ off or not.

Therefore carries risk, but no danger. Visual guidance that can be seen. Spectacle on destruction. Advertising when not. Chance of a SC for simple infraction. It’s all in the win column as far as the promoters are concerned and removes silly politics of stewarding.

If you don’t replace it, surely once the first driver has blown it up then there reference, and deterrence, for everyone else is now gone and you’re back to the current situation of policing track limits?

[Sash1]

It has weight, it will be painfull if it flies up and someone hits it at speed. The stuff can burn and when it is self-extinguishing, it will still melt (unless it is the newest, but heavier, Xire EPS) and hot droplets hurt like f. 

[aportinga]

We do need gravel. Just use more bloody gravel.

 

100%

[aportinga]

I somehow had never heard about this, thanks. Extraordinary story.

 

I always thought that was just styrofoam.

[SophieB]

I always thought that was just styrofoam.

As far as I can understand (from just reading about it yesterday!), it was, but in the heat of the moment he *thought* he was going to hit solid concrete and a few minutes after the impact fainted, possibly due to the massive spike of adrenaline.

[mirrorboy]

Emmanuele Pirro, Hockenheim 1989.

 

 

As far as I can understand (from just reading about it yesterday!), it was, but in the heat of the moment he *thought* he was going to hit solid concrete and a few minutes after the impact fainted, possibly due to the massive spike of adrenaline.

 

 

So apparently Pirro thought he was about to crash against concrete walls, which is why he afterwards fainted due to the rush of adrenaline.

 

If so, Pirro's case doesn't apply to preventing the use of polystyrene walls, as current drivers wouldn't think they are about to die when hitting one of those, knowing they aren't made of concrete.

[PayasYouRace]

So apparently Pirro thought he was about to crash against concrete walls, which is why he afterwards fainted due to the rush of adrenaline.

If so, Pirro's case doesn't apply to preventing the use of polystyrene walls, as current drivers wouldn't think they are about to die when hitting one of those, knowing they aren't made of concrete.

I find it hard to believe that the drivers at Hockenheim in 1989 didn’t know they were polystyrene. Pirro’s reaction was no doubt instinctual, but the field would have boycotted the race if they’d have thought those were concrete blocks prior to the start. Prior to FP1 most likely. There were definitely enough safety conscious drivers in that entry.

I don’t think Pirro was that blasé either that he never questioned why there were concrete blocks at the end of the fastest straights on the calendar.

[SophieB]

I find it hard to believe that the drivers at Hockenheim in 1989 didn’t know they were polystyrene. Pirro’s reaction was no doubt instinctual, but the field would have boycotted the race if they’d have thought those were concrete blocks prior to the start. Prior to FP1 most likely. There were definitely enough safety conscious drivers in that entry.

I don’t think Pirro was that blasé either that he never questioned why there were concrete blocks at the end of the fastest straights on the calendar.

In the interview I read, it sounds like he *did* know but in the heat of the moment forgot, yes.

[Afterburner]

Tec pro is more solid. I’m simply talking about the cut table chicanes and track limit corners. Put up a visual barrier that disappears when impacted. May damage a front wing. Will cause a SC. Clear up, but don’t replace.

Could have a default drive through penalty for anyone that hits it - whether ‘pushed’ off or not.

Therefore carries risk, but no danger. Visual guidance that can be seen. Spectacle on destruction. Advertising when not. Chance of a SC for simple infraction. It’s all in the win column as far as the promoters are concerned and removes silly politics of stewarding.

The more I think about it the more I actually like all of this, because the fans being pissed at extra SCs from foam debris would make drivers who blew them up unpopular and thus provide additional motivation against doing so.

I also think they could easily paint marks for where they could be replaced after each incident and put them back during the cleanup. Rather than a drive-through, though, I say give a 5-second time penalty for each dislodged block.

[le chat noir]

And if you don’t like polystyrene for this, I’m sure there’s some other simple material that can withstand wind but break on impact.

Like paper. Perforated paper perhaps with polystyrene supports.

Gravel is fine except for the loss of traction and constant need to clean it up.

If we’re doomed to tarmac at these corner cutting zones, I do think a fragile wall is the way ahead. On outer track limit corners, a strip of low grip material or gravel, perhaps polished resin, should be sufficient, but on corners like last weekend a visual barrier cuts through all the nonsense.

Then you don’t need rules about apexes, you just need to get around the track faster than the other guy.

[917k]

Sticky paper strips that adhere to tires…..

[Catalina Park]

Rouen 1973. F2 race. Ronnie Peterson hit the chicane made from polystyrene blocks, broke his steering and launched over an Armco barrier.

[PlatenGlass]

Enjoying the thread regardless of agreement.

[keeppari]

Emmanuele Pirro, Hockenheim 1989.

Watching that crash, I have some doubts about their safety as hitting them seems to be enough to destroy front and rear wings and front suspension on both sides.

Edited by keeppari, 23 April 2025 - 07:13.

[le chat noir]

Watching that crash, I have some doubts about their safety as hitting them seems to be enough to destroy front and rear wings and front suspension on both sides.

36 years later in Formula 1 I reckon they could make them thinner (to prevent launching) and lighter (to limit damage).

I should probably be actually coming up with a design and selling it rather than passing over the millions on a message board. You’d think I’d have learned by now and … be on edge … about sharing such ideas

[LittleChris]

Rouen 1973. F2 race. Ronnie Peterson hit the chicane made from polystyrene blocks, broke his steering and launched over an Armco barrier.

He didn't actually go over the Armco but slid along the top then dropped back trackside otherwise he'd still be down in the ravine outside Turn 2 !! . But your point is valid

Edited by LittleChris, 23 April 2025 - 07:45.

[le chat noir]

Watching that crash, I have some doubts about their safety as hitting them seems to be enough to destroy front and rear wings and front suspension on both sides.

36 years later in Formula 1 I reckon they could make them thinner (to prevent launching) and lighter (to limit damage).

I should probably be actually coming up with a design and selling it rather than passing over the millions on a message board. You’d think I’d have learned by now and … be on edge … about sharing such ideas

[jee]

To enforce track limits and short cutting, they don't need to be as high as the sponsoring boards. Something like 10 or 20cm tall would easily be enough, while being a lot less dangerous.

[le chat noir]

Yes. I think that’s true, but I’d go higher to ensure visibility. Height of a bathtub or so. Height of a drivers helmet but lower than airbox/halo

[Sash1]

They can also make sensor strips, that once you hit or go over them cut back engine power for a few seconds. Can easily be done with the new engine rules. Direct penalty, no damage, no mess, no SC.

[PayasYouRace]

They can also make sensor strips, that once you hit or go over them cut back engine power for a few seconds. Can easily be done with the new engine rules. Direct penalty, no damage, no mess, no SC.

More expensive but obviously would work.

People tend to get a bit panicky when you talk about cutting power. But frankly, if you’re following another driver off track and aren’t prepared for his car to slow, you deserve the crash you’re about to have.

[PlatenGlass]

More expensive but obviously would work.

People tend to get a bit panicky when you talk about cutting power. But frankly, if you’re following another driver off track and aren’t prepared for his car to slow, you deserve the crash you’re about to have.

He might only go off track by 0.7mm and you're not quite sure. And you've just had a great corner exit and think you've got a good chance at a pass down the straight but you have to back off because the FIA might or might not deliver a brake test.

[PayasYouRace]

He might only go off track by 0.7mm and you're not quite sure. And you've just had a great corner exit and think you've got a good chance at a pass down the straight but you have to back off because the FIA might or might not deliver a brake test.

As if F1 cars can follow that closely through corners.

[le chat noir]

Adding technology for the sake of technology is best avoided when a simple solution is available.

 

See 50/50 power units needing active aero. See Sprint races.

 

Here's a course. Here's a budget. Get two cars around it faster than the others and you win.

[7MGTEsup]

Why not some spring loaded bollards that when hit will fold down but the force required to do so will be enough to damage the front wing. Have enough of them that avoiding them causes you to slow massively so you lose time either way. Going of track should cost you at least 2-4 seconds on your lap time so there can never be an advantage to doing it.

[PayasYouRace]

Why not some spring loaded bollards that when hit will fold down but the force required to do so will be enough to damage the front wing. Have enough of them that avoiding them causes you to slow massively so you lose time either way. Going of track should cost you at least 2-4 seconds on your lap time so there can never be an advantage to doing it.

Monza tyre stacks, 1996.

[Tsarwash]

Sticky paper strips that adhere to tires…..

Chalk.

[Afterburner]

They can also make sensor strips, that once you hit or go over them cut back engine power for a few seconds. Can easily be done with the new engine rules. Direct penalty, no damage, no mess, no SC.

This works until George Russell’s car gets an electronics glitch.

[RedRabbit]

This works until George Russell’s car gets an electronics glitch.

Cuts every corner, laps the whole field twice and wins "legally" because the sensors never registered him off track hahaha

[RedRabbit]

It is amazing how F1 history is littered with examples of practical solutions to keep cars on track.

[jee]

Monza tyre stacks, 1996.

Just dig in tyres half way around the track edges and paint them white for better visibility.

[PayasYouRace]

Just dig in tyres half way around the track edges and paint them white for better visibility.

I always wondered. Were those whole tyres buried in the tarmac, or half tyres bolted to it?

[7MGTEsup]

Monza tyre stacks, 1996.

 

Damon loved them...

 

They tend to rebound onto the track but no one will ever cut the corner and gain from it.

[PlatenGlass]

Have the track raised by 30cm or so with a vertical drop either side so if you go off you can't get back on until you get to a designated point but you have to drive further to get there, or maybe through the pits.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 23 April 2025 - 14:39.

[PayasYouRace]

Have the track raised by 30cm or so with a vertical drop either side so if you go off you can't get back on until you get to a designated point but you have to drive further to get there, or maybe through the pits.

Spinal injuries aren’t fun.

[LittleChris]

60 cm walls / single layer armco either side of the track. It worked for Siracusa in the 50's and 60's 

 

CAN168 BRITAIN'S JOHN SURTEES WINS SYRACUSE GRAND PRIX IN A FERRARI

[PlatenGlass]

Spinal injuries aren’t fun.

The non-circuit bit is made from sponge.

[jee]

If it is made from sponge, will porpoising be back because the track is getting sucked into the floor?

[PayasYouRace]

I knew I’d seen this idea on here before:

 

Put polystyrene markers at exactly one cars' width outside of the white lines. If cars leave the track entirely then the markers will explode and the driver gets an automatic drive thru unless somebody forced them off. In which case they get the drive thru.