26 replies to this topic

[balmybaldwin]

Couldn't see a topic for this, but mods please merge if I've missed an older thread

 

New F1 Rules of Engagement have been leaked to the race aparently:

 

https://youtu.be/6gb...qkUdgW-YO4p0H8S

 

Some minor tweaks that explain some of the decisions this year.

 

Overall I think changes for the good, but I don't understand why they are kept behind closed doors

[SophieB]

It is very weird. Why would they not just let the fans know? 

[KWSN - DSM]

It is very weird. Why would they not just let the fans know? 

 

Because the fans would then expect them always to be followed, adhered to and penalized in a consistent manner when/if not followed.

[jonklug]

I agree with the changes, and they make sense. It was silly for the driver on the inside to have to leave room on the outside for the guy he is overtaking. Just hope this is consistently enforced now and it should be nice and tidy.

[PayasYouRace]

Could someone sum up the tweaks please? Can’t YouTube right now.

[JeePee]

I agree with the changes, and they make sense. It was silly for the driver on the inside to have to leave room on the outside for the guy he is overtaking. Just hope this is consistently enforced now and it should be nice and tidy.

F1 overtaking rules makes absolutely zero sense, and ruin side by side racing.

[PayasYouRace]

I agree with the changes, and they make sense. It was silly for the driver on the inside to have to leave room on the outside for the guy he is overtaking. Just hope this is consistently enforced now and it should be nice and tidy.

What? No!

You’re telling me they’re making it acceptable to run your opponent out of road? That’s terrible. You should always have to leave space for a car beside you.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Kind of overregulation IMO. The issue is that the circuits are designed in such a way that it makes a driver have zero issue in running another driver off the track. If there was gravel (or even grass) - we aren't going back to walls of course - then this would happen far less. There are no consequences to running a driver off.

 

If a driver put another into a wall or a gravel trap, they'd be in line for a penalty - this would dissuade them from this kind of driving. The way it is now, it's simply two cars on a patch of tarmac, one is pushed out of the white lines, Croft goes bonkers as usual and we have endless discussion on what should happen next.

[jonklug]

Could someone sum up the tweaks please? Can’t YouTube right now.

 

Here you go:

 

 

[jonklug]

What? No!

You’re telling me they’re making it acceptable to run your opponent out of road? That’s terrible. You should always have to leave space for a car beside you.

 

It's how it always was in karting and such. If you can make the corner and are ahead, then you are entitled to give no room. It is essentially why Piastri wasn't penalized for the incident with Max in Saudi just now and why it didn't matter that Verstappen (the defending car) was slightly ahead at the apex. He was still the defending car, and not the attacking one, and Piastri was entitled to give him no space. Thus cutting the corner and gaining an advantage was a clear cut penalty. If they simply enforce this equally, then it's fair for all.

It would have also prevented Russell's penalty on Bottas in Austin last year. 

[Risil]

Cheers Jon

[PayasYouRace]

It's how it always was in karting and such. If you can make the corner and are ahead, then you are entitled to give no room. It is essentially why Piastri wasn't penalized for the incident with Max in Saudi just now and why it didn't matter that Verstappen (the defending car) was slightly ahead at the apex. He was still the defending car, and not the attacking one, and Piastri was entitled to give him no space. Thus cutting the corner and gaining an advantage was a clear cut penalty. If they simply enforce this equally, then it's fair for all.

It would have also prevented Russell's penalty on Bottas in Austin last year.

I still think it’s a terrible way to do it in terms of giving space.

But I can see that the changes at least clarify things they way they want to run it.

[jonklug]

I still think it’s a terrible way to do it in terms of giving space.

But I can see that the changes at least clarify things they way they want to run it.

 

I think it's at least a step in the right direction of having clearer guidelines that are easier for the stewards to apply in the context of a penalty and for drivers to follow and understand. Will there still be controversies? I am sure, but still feel it's a step in the right direction of making things clearer to judge. 

[Ivanhoe]

Kind of overregulation IMO. The issue is that the circuits are designed in such a way that it makes a driver have zero issue in running another driver off the track. If there was gravel (or even grass) - we aren't going back to walls of course - then this would happen far less. There are no consequences to running a driver off.

 

If a driver put another into a wall or a gravel trap, they'd be in line for a penalty - this would dissuade them from this kind of driving. The way it is now, it's simply two cars on a patch of tarmac, one is pushed out of the white lines, Croft goes bonkers as usual and we have endless discussion on what should happen next.

The other side of that medal is that we would see fewer drivers hanging on the outside if there were gravel or a wall; for the same reason, there are no consequences running off.

[Ali_G]

Shocking if the overtaking driver can just drive the other off the circuit. It was not always this way and certainly not always this way in karting.

This weird form of racing really is only prevalent in the last 20 years.

[jonklug]

Shocking if the overtaking driver can just drive the other off the circuit. It was not always this way and certainly not always this way in karting.

This weird form of racing really is only prevalent in the last 20 years.

 

It's apparently what the drivers themselves asked for

[LiJu914]

What i don´t like about guideline A is its consequence in case of a collision.

 

Let´s assume Driver A is overtaking on the inside and is alongside the mirror of Driver B before and at the apex.

Now Driver A is entitled to leave no space for the rest of the corner, BUT he also is not ahead of driver B at that moment and hasn´t completed the move.

If Driver A now runs into Driver B, it will be regarded as the fault of Driver B even if it´s not a case of him "turning in" on Driver A.

Driver B is basically obliged to run off the track or yield his position beforehand in order to avoid a collision.

Edited by LiJu914, Today, 10:22.

[Stephane]

It's apparently what the drivers themselves asked for

We'll see next time one of them says 'he pushed me off' 😅

[GlenWatkins]

Can't post a link, but Racer has a good write up about the new rules and Max's penalty last week.

In essence, if you are on the inside and your wheel is in front of the mirror of the other car at the apex, the corner is yours and only then can you run the outside car wide.

Edited by GlenWatkins, Today, 10:34.

[Analog]

Well, then the penalty for Max makes perfect sense. It did not (make perfect sense) according to last years guidelines.

Edited by Analog, Today, 11:17.

[RedRabbit]

The other side of that medal is that we would see fewer drivers hanging on the outside if there were gravel or a wall; for the same reason, there are no consequences running off.

This

[pdac]

I've never understood why they don't just paint a line a car-width in from the outside of each corner and say that, when overtaking on the inside, the car must not cross this line.

[ANF]

Could someone sum up the tweaks please? Can’t YouTube right now.

The stewards summed them up pretty well in their letter to the teams' Sporting Directors:
 

February 24, 2025

Dear Sporting Director,

Please find attached the 2025 Formula One Driving Standards Guidelines.

These have been prepared after extensive consultation including the very constructive meeting with the drivers in Qatar in late 2024, and ongoing discussions with the F1 Stewards and particularly the Drivers Stewards.

It must be stressed that this is a “living document” and therefore, as such, it is possible that amendments or adjustments may have to be made during the season.

There are some significant changes to the guidelines as a result of the consultation process.

In particular, and we ask that you draw these to the attention of your drivers, the following are, we believe, noteworthy and we believe that they will encourage safe and fair overtaking.

1. When overtaking on the inside, you no longer are required to give room to the overtaking car from the apex all the way to the exit, PROVIDED you are in control and within track limits.

2. When overtaking on the inside, you now not only have to have your front wheels alongside the mirror of the car you are overtaking, AT the apex, you also need to have been there PRIOR to the apex. Whilst that is not as definitive as previously, it is designed to give the Stewards (based on the advice of the Driver Steward) a better indication if there has been late “diving in”.

3. For Chicanes and S bends, we have added the word “generally” in relation to being given priority on the second turn if you are in front on the first turn, because it is acknowledged that, in some (probably rare) situations, it might be able to execute a fair and safe overtake on the second turn, even if behind on the first.

4. Many of the “caveats” to earning the right to the corner (such as not diving in etc.) have now been incorporated directly into the descriptions on the first page.

It would be greatly appreciated if you could take your drivers carefully through this document. Two of the F1 Steward Chairs and two of the F1 Driver Stewards will be in Melbourne for the first round. We encourage you to contact them on the Thursday if you have any questions or your drivers wish to discuss or clarify the guidlines with them. The door to the Stewards Room is always open.


With kind regards

[ANF]

Plain text bits from the 2025 Formula One Driving Standards Guidelines that can be seen in that video:
 
 

Driving Standards Guidelines

February 20, 2025

V4.1


These are GUIDELINES and NOT REGULATIONS

Many incidents require subjective judgement, and the Stewards are guided by the experience of their Driver Stewards in combination with these guidelines and the FIA Regulations.

If it has been established from points A and B below, that an overtaking driver has priority, it is the responsibility of the defending driver to avoid a collision or forcing off the overtaking driver.

Attention is also drawn to the important note in Point F on page 3, for defending drivers who leave the track whilst defending a position.


A. Overtaking on the INSIDE of a corner:

To be entitled to be given room when overtaking on the INSIDE, the overtaking car must:

i) Have its front axle AT LEAST ALONGSIDE THE MIRROR of the other car PRIOR TO AND AT THE APEX

ii) Be driven in a fully controlled manner particularly from entry to apex, and not have “dived in”.

iii) In the Stewards' estimation, have taken a reasonable racing line and been able to complete the move whilst remaining within track limits.


B. Overtaking on the OUTSIDE of a corner:

Overtaking on the outside will always be viewed as a more difficult manoeuvre to accomplish.

To be entitled to be given room, including at the exit, when overtaking on the OUTSIDE, the overtaking car must:

i) Have its front axle AHEAD OF THE FRONT AXLE of the other car AT THE APEX.

ii) Be driven in a controlled manner from the entry, to apex, and to exit.

iii) Be able to make the corner within track limits.


C. Chicanes and S-Bends:

i) The above guides for INSIDE and OUTSIDE may apply for each element of the combination. Generally, priority will be given to the first corner element.


IMPORTANT NOTES


– – –


v) was there understeer/oversteer/locking?

vi) Did someone position/handle their car in a way that contributed to the incident?

vii) Did the type of corner contribute to the incident? (e.g. camber, kerbs, curve, apexes)

viii) What were the relative tyres/tyre age/grip?


D. Track Limits:

It is considered that respecting track limits is important for both, racing fairness and safety, thus Art. 33.3 of the F1SR will be strictly enforced:

“Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track, but kerbs are not...”

Note(s):

In Free Practice, invalid lap times will only be deleted in circumstances where such FP classification may be needed to set the grid.

In the case of an infringement in Sprint Qualifying or Qualifying, the lap time will be deleted, and the time ...


– – –


Not only will Art. 37.5 of the F1SR be enforced but drivers are reminded of Art. 33.4:

“At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.”


F. Giving back a lasting advantage:

The Procedure in Art. 33.3 will be strictly applied:

“Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the Race Director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.”

Note(s):

If, while defending a position, a car leaves the track (or cuts a chicane) and re-joins in the same position, it will generally be considered by the stewards as having gained a lasting advantage and therefore, generally, the position should be given back, as prescribed in the rules. It will be the sole discretion of the Stewards to determine if the driver of a car is “defending a position”.


G. Moving on the Straight:

Appendix L, Chapter IV, Article 2 states:


– – –

Edited by ANF, Today, 12:27.

[Timorous]

Interesting.

 

The wording of A now makes it clear that Brazil 2021 would be penalised.

 

Also the caveat of 'a reasonable racing line' makes moves like AD 21 lap 1 a foul as well.

 

Seems like the intent is for the overtaking car to be on the brakes such that they can rotate the car around the corners apex rather than braking extra late to be ahead at the apex for the purposes of being able to run the outside car off track even it that means the car does not rotate at all at the apex and rotates a lot later.

 

Lets see how well these rules play out and how well they are enforced going forward.

 

Overall they do seem like a step forward vs the old driving standards that left certain exploits in place.

[Goron3]

These are definitely an improvment from last year and it's a shame they didn't make these changes public.

 

Essentially, even if Max could have made the corner, it's irrelevant, as Piastri was deemed to have won the corner and thus the onus is on the car on the outide to back out. To stop drivers racing to the apex, they judge winning the corner ahead of the apex now as well. This will stop lifting off the brakes to win the corner.

 

If we go back to the original problem the FIA were trying to solve, they wanted to stop drivers half chancing a move around the outside and then claiming they 'were forced off'. I think this does (finally) solve it.

[Mc_Silver]

These are definitely an improvment from last year and it's a shame they didn't make these changes public.

Essentially, even if Max could have made the corner, it's irrelevant, as Piastri was deemed to have won the corner and thus the onus is on the car on the outide to back out. To stop drivers racing to the apex, they judge winning the corner ahead of the apex now as well. This will stop lifting off the brakes to win the corner.

If we go back to the original problem the FIA were trying to solve, they wanted to stop drivers half chancing a move around the outside and then claiming they 'were forced off'. I think this does (finally) solve it.

Well said. This is clear improvement in terms of ruling.