51 replies to this topic

[sniper80]

So could McLaren be using Phase Changing Materials (PCM) in the brake drums?

 

[sniper80]

So could McLaren be using Phase Changing Materials (PCM) in the brake drums? Red Bull should be able to copy this easily?

 

[Bliman]

Maybe interesting.

[jonklug]

So could McLaren be using Phase Changing Materials (PCM) in the brake drums? Red Bull should be able to copy this easily?

 

 

Thanks for sharing, what a nice find. So this individual wrote a thesis on these PCM in Woking, at McLaren? Props to him! 

[BertoC]

Maybe interesting.
https://www.youtube....h?v=L00FHrVFGaU

Very clever!

[f1rules]

Very interesting. AMUS had a big article on the matter talking about redbull and how they are trying to figure out mclarens solution  using thermal cameras during pitstops.

McLaren is apparently the only of all teams, where the drum cover, actually have blueish(colder temps) color when measured with the camera. All other teams were red/orange during the same races. So they are definitly doing something clever

 

 

Maybe interesting.

[Nobody]

brake drums of justice?

[Seb33]

So could McLaren be using Phase Changing Materials (PCM) in the brake drums? Red Bull should be able to copy this easily?

 

 

I don't get it. Red Bull has done water cooling experiments in the past and accused McLaren of using this method. After claiming that they have proof, but not providing it to FIA, they started chasing McLaren with thermal cameras.    Shouldn't they come up with this earlier?

A YouTuber sees the dilemma, feels sorry for them and explains how it's done? Could it be that simple? Next time instead of paying clueless engineers, just ask on YouTube. 

Edited by Seb33, Yesterday, 13:07.

[SenorSjon]

More advanced CPU/VGA-coolers use this to cool the power hungry beasts of today. They have to resolve 200-300W from a tiny surface.

[vlado]

Maybe interesting.
https://www.youtube....h?v=L00FHrVFGaU

Very interesting indeed but I doubt they are doing that because that’s pretty much a heat exchange thing and that’s strictly illegal as far as I’m aware

[Nicktendo86]

Thanks for sharing, what a nice find. So this individual wrote a thesis on these PCM in Woking, at McLaren? Props to him!

Just a theory of course but kinda a big coincidence

[jonklug]

Just a theory of course but kinda a big coincidence

 

In what way? That he made a thesis at Woking? 

[onewingedangel]

Very interesting. AMUS had a big article on the matter talking about redbull and how they are trying to figure out mclarens solution using thermal cameras during pitstops.
McLaren is apparently the only of all teams, where the drum cover, actually have blueish(colder temps) color when measured with the camera. All other teams were red/orange during the same races. So they are definitly doing something clever

It's probably something far simpler, using an extra layer with cool intake air before it reaches the brakes to further insulate the wheels from the brakes heat. Would lose out on the ability to heat the tyres using the brakes to the same extent, and add some drag by making the brake ducts more circuitous but would lower tyre temps.

Edited by onewingedangel, Yesterday, 15:16.

[Seb33]

If this was true and McLaren is using the solution, wouldn't the person contact another top F1 team in private to sell them this info, instead of talking about it online? After all it can't be done that easy, if all the other teams seem to have no clue.

 

Maybe McLaren tested it at some point, but couldn't get it to work and found something else instead. Now they are putting this rumor out for everyone to waste time, energy and deflect from the truth. 

Red Bull, please don't fall for it! Looks like the strategy with thermal cameras works and McLaren is feeling the heat. Maybe it's the water after all. 

[PrinceBira]

Which other legal things could it be?

I don’t think changing tire pressures dynamically is allowed? Nor active suspension. The only way to dynamically change tire temps would be by means of some form of rim cooling?

[jonklug]

If this was true and McLaren is using the solution, wouldn't the person contact another top F1 team in private to sell them this info, instead of talking about it online? After all it can't be done that easy, if all the other teams seem to have no clue.

 

Maybe McLaren tested it at some point, but couldn't get it to work and found something else instead. Now they are putting this rumor out for everyone to waste time, energy and deflect from the truth. 

Red Bull, please don't fall for it! Looks like the strategy with thermal cameras works and McLaren is feeling the heat. Maybe it's the water after all. 

 

That individual isn't a former McLaren engineer, nor does he know for sure that THAT is the way McLaren are doing it. He is just exposing what he thinks they are doing/one scenario that could work to achieve what they are achieving. 

[SophieB]

Possibly connected, this story from The hyphen Race:
 
 
 

The Race understands that following questions posed by McLaren's rivals, the FIA has duly taken a closer look at the McLaren brake design at recent races to find out for itself what is going on.
Sources have suggested that after McLaren secured a 1-2 in the Miami GP, a more thorough inspection of the braking system, ducts and drums was conducted by FIA personnel on Sunday night in a bid to finally put the matter to bed. 
There has been no formal documentation about the results of that inspection yet, and if this was part of the extra "extensive physical inspections" that the FIA does on a selected car after each race, then that will not be officially confirmed until the eve of the Emilia Romagna GP later this month.
However, with there being no notification to the team or officials on Sunday night about any problems having been found, then it is almost certain that any forthcoming note will give it the all clear.
And that would mean, as was the case in previous inspections the FIA has conducted, McLaren's design fully complies with the regulations - and that it is simply a clever design.

https://www.the-race...-fia-all-clear/

[brucewayne]

Possibly connected, this story from The hyphen Race:



https://www.the-race...-fia-all-clear/

We will see.

[pacificquay]

We will see.

 

What does that mean?

 

Do you have evidence the FIA has missed?

[mclarensmps]

In GP's own words: There was a lot of whinging... A LOT

[SparkPlug86]

Well done McLaren if true - upto the other teams to catch up or copy.

[MikeTekRacing]

as with any innovation in F1, i am happy to see it. Love to see the challenge and technical brilliance. 

[SparkPlug86]

as with any innovation in F1, i am happy to see it. Love to see the challenge and technical brilliance. 

 

Same. If true, this is up there with Mercedes "push pull" steering, blown defuser and F-duct... 

[Nicktendo86]

One thing for sure, no matter how they are doing it McLaren seem to have the other teams floundering at the moment. Hope it lasts!

[Seb33]

The Race understands that following questions posed by McLaren's rivals, the FIA has duly taken a closer look at the McLaren brake design at recent races to find out for itself what is going on.
Sources have suggested that after McLaren secured a 1-2 in the Miami GP, a more thorough inspection of the braking system, ducts and drums was conducted by FIA personnel on Sunday night in a bid to finally put the matter to bed. 
There has been no formal documentation about the results of that inspection yet, and if this was part of the extra "extensive physical inspections" that the FIA does on a selected car after each race, then that will not be officially confirmed until the eve of the Emilia Romagna GP later this month.
However, with there being no notification to the team or officials on Sunday night about any problems having been found, then it is almost certain that any forthcoming note will give it the all clear.
And that would mean, as was the case in previous inspections the FIA has conducted, McLaren's design fully complies with the regulations - and that it is simply a clever design.

 

One can instantly tell who wrote it, without even looking. Zak himself couldn't have done it better. 

[Seb33]

Same. If true, this is up there with Mercedes "push pull" steering, blown defuser and F-duct... 

 

IF true. Legal innovation is one thing, trusting FIA on the other hand...

[Mc_Silver]

Zak is probably drinking his tire water while reading the comments here

[mclarensmps]

IF true. Legal innovation is one thing, trusting FIA on the other hand...

Yeah because the FIA has a history of being so pro-McLaren 

[TomNokoe]

DRUM-GATE?

[UncleSam]

Just read the article on the-race, how can the writer conclude in the header that they're cleared when in the article itself they only mention that "There has been no formal documentation about the results of that inspection yet". Maybe the FIA tech team want to receive and study the drawings from the insides of the rear drums first before they conclude anything.

Edited by UncleSam, Yesterday, 19:44.

[FirstnameLastname]

Ban it IMMEDIATALY

[Garagista]

The 2019 Ferrari engine was also legal, until in the USA the Ferrari passed from a speed demon to a normal car in the straights.

But Kudos to Mclaren but for me it is sad how terrible the Pirellis are that teams have to work out novel ideas to make them work properly.

[NCB619]

The 2019 Ferrari engine was also legal, until in the USA the Ferrari passed from a speed demon to a normal car in the straights.

To be fair, despite this being Formula 1, there is a difference between 'legal', and 'not getting caught'

[jonklug]

I see some people online saying that PCM would be illegal to use as per the regulation. Is that so? Because if it's illegal and the FIA cleared McLaren's cooling mechanism then it's not PCM that they're using. 

[UncleSam]

FIA did not clear them yet

[Risil]

In what way? That he made a thesis at Woking? 

 

Wonder where he got it printed and bound. Photocopying businesses sometimes offer that as a service, I've heard Woking has a good one.

[pdac]

To be fair, despite this being Formula 1, there is a difference between 'legal', and 'not getting caught'

 

Indeed. The rules are rarely written in a prescriptive way. They are open to interpretation. Something only becomes illegal once the interpretation is challenged and it goes to a higher authority to add clarification to the wording,

 

This is why teams are generally not disqualified for anything and are allowed time to correct things. It's also why there are some of us (me included) who feel that they should word a lot more of the rules so that they are not so open to interpretation by using more definite language and clarifying what is meant when they use vague terms.

Edited by pdac, Today, 10:53.

[rodlamas]

FIA did not clear them yet

You do not need to be cleared of a problem that does not exist and you do not need tk be cleared from a problem invented on the internet or on Christian Horner's sexual fantasies.

[Beggysmalls]

It might explain a couple of years ago when McLaren had that awful start to the season and it was put down to brake ducts. Perhaps it was an early version of this that needed to be developed more and once they have sorted it's a rocketship

[Yoshi]

This is what Formula 1 is all about – creativity and innovation.

Kudos to McLaren

Edited by Yoshi, Today, 11:14.

[chrcol]

Waiting for the inevitable FIA ban.

[1player]

as with any innovation in F1, i am happy to see it. Love to see the challenge and technical brilliance. 

Aside: Even as a McLaren fan I was in awe of Mercedes' DAS system. It was such a low-tech but effective innovation that fully embodies the spirit of F1 engineering. I'm sad it got banned.

Edited by 1player, Today, 11:22.

[1player]

Zak is probably drinking his tire water while reading the comments here

For those that missed it:

[DevilDare]

That water bottle is fantastic!

 

The innovation is pretty clever too, if true. 

[rodlamas]

That water bottle is fantastic!

The innovation is pretty clever too, if true.

They should start selling those.

[basimi]

If I follow his YouTube, Instagram and then website it seems to be this guy (https://www.buchanmotorsport.com/about). I am not sure if legit ofcourse, but according to his bio worked in Woking.

[BertoC]

If I follow his YouTube, Instagram and then website it seems to be this guy (https://www.buchanmotorsport.com/about). I am not sure if legit ofcourse, but according to his bio worked in Woking.

In the video he says he worked at Mclaren, or at least wrote a thesis there (as a student? intern maybe?)

[midgrid]

If I follow his YouTube, Instagram and then website it seems to be this guy (https://www.buchanmotorsport.com/about). I am not sure if legit ofcourse, but according to his bio worked in Woking.

 

According to this, he did write a master's dissertation at McLaren (presumably on a student placement), but it was about the McLaren Applied Technology's Formula E battery development.

[NCB619]

Indeed. The rules are rarely written in a prescriptive way. They are open to interpretation. Something only becomes illegal once the interpretation is challenged and it goes to a higher authority to add clarification to the wording,

 

This is why teams are generally not disqualified for anything and are allowed time to correct things. It's also why there are some of us (me included) who feel that they should word a lot more of the rules so that they are not so open to interpretation by using more definite language and clarifying what is meant when they use vague terms.

Whilst true, the main thing I was pointing out was that in the case of Ferrari, I’m quite certain it was made explicit that the fuel flow could not be exceeded at any point, even though FIA only had one ‘measuring stick’. Just because it passed the test with the singular meter, realistically it doesn’t mean it was legal before that.

[UncleSam]

You do not need to be cleared of a problem that does not exist and you do not need tk be cleared from a problem invented on the internet or on Christian Horner's sexual fantasies.

No need to get so toxic..
All I'm saying is that in the article itself there's an other conclusion than the header: "There has been no formal documentation about the results of that inspection yet"