23 replies to this topic

[JL14]

With the return of Colapinto also - immediately - resulting in the return of online abuse of other drivers, and drivers, teams and the FIA starting to speak out on it, how should this be handled in your opinion?

 

- Is is simply part of the current world we live in and you can't do anything about it? So Just ignore it the best you can and don't give any attention to it / those people (something the media is then bad at again).

- Should the sports-person (be made to) make a stronger stance by calling them out? 'With behaviour like this I don't consider you a fan", "I don't want you as a fan", "I have no respect for you and your behaviour".

- Should a stance be made by the sport if it's a continuous/returning thing amongst a specific group, like banning the sports-person who - hopefully unwanted - brings those 'fans' along from competing in one or multiple events?

- .....?

 

The first thing I would like to see relates to point 2: that they stop calling them 'passionate fans', and thereby in a way praising them, like Franco for example did in his statement. They are not passionate. They are not fans. They are hooligans with an obsessed single view mind.

If that doesn't help, probably the only way to maybe get through to (a few) of them, is unfortunately to sanction and punish the sports-person. 

 

It's the same with physical abuse. In football (or any other sports), imo, if you repeatedly can't control your fans from creating fights, destroying stuff etc. by handing out and enforcing (stadium-/area) bans, you will face sporting and/or financial repercussions. Yes, those hooligans will probably have the mindset of 'being wronged', 'it's their fault' and 'see, they are against us', but hopefully at some point they start to realise that their actions are harming what (they (believe) they are supporting...

Edited by JL14, Yesterday, 11:15.

[Risil]

Interesting topic. As long as this hooliganism takes place online there aren't the same risks as when it takes place in physical spaces, and I suspect this means that authorities and competitors find it much easier to deflect and deny responsibility. The most significant example in European sports was the ban on English soccer clubs taking part in European competitions in the second half of the 1980s, but would that have happened without the mass death at Heysel caused by fighting in stadiums? No chance, in my opinion. Extreme abuse, intimidation and violence had been a regular feature of European soccer ties for some years but it took an unspeakable tragedy (and as a result the involvement of national governments) to create the conditions for a ban.

 

I think a driver whose fans are behaving awfully to other competitors has some moral responsibility to call them out, but I don't know if it would be worthwhile to compel this.

 

Indycar went through something similar with Agustin Canapino -- what happened in the end there? His fans kept abusing drivers that he came into conflict with, and then he mysteriously lost his drive with Juncos. Was there behind-the-scenes pressure on Canapino, I wonder?

 

I'm leaving aside point 1 -- about whether we should just accept it -- for now. Although it should be pointed out that at some level of intensity verbal abuse can become a criminal threat and nobody should feel like they have to accept those.

[Beri]

Interestingly we have had these discussions before: Motorsport hooliganism - Racing Comments - The Autosport Forums

 

But even more interestingly, it seems like this kind of behavior is not dying out. Only it shows its ugly head once a while. And it seems that the trigger for it this time; is the hiring of Colapinto.

[JimmyClark]

I don't think it can be policed really, and all it will end up doing is driving personalities off social media, which means everyone loses out. Certainly if I was a sportsman I'd likely stay off it entirely.

However, I doubt this will do Argentina's chances of getting back on the calender much good...

[pup]

Are we trying to solve the internet here, or just human behavior?

[Ali623]

 

- Is is simply part of the current world we live in and you can't do anything about it? So Just ignore it the best you can and don't give any attention to it / those people (something the media is then bad at again).

 

 

Pretty much this, there's not much that can be done about it. The internet has given billions of people an anonymous voice to say what they want, without consequences the majority of the time.

 

The solution from the driver's perspective is to let their press manager run their public social media accounts, while perhaps having private/locked accounts for personal use with close friends/family. Which I believe is what many do anyway.

 

Otherwise, it's really an issue for the social media companies to institute harsher punishments and bans for this sort behaviour on a wider scale.

Edited by Ali623, Yesterday, 13:51.

[IrvTheSwerve]

It's not really anything to do with motorsport - the internet in general is full of idiots simply because they are anonymous.

 

The only way it would get safer or more respectful is if you had to register your online activity and link it with your real name, address, etc...an online ID, if you will. Even that would be abused though, probably.

 

What you need to remember is that the vast majority of these idiots who write appalling, threatening comments, wouldn't say a single thing to your face. 

[juicy sushi]

I think it's noteworthy that the main recent instances have been one specific fanbase, suggesting that it is not a part of wider motorsports fan culture in particular, so much as one specific geographic area where this is more endemic.  Not sure what's to be done about it, but I think it's a good reason to ensure that F1 not run events in that country given the fanbase creates these issues.

[ensign14]

Pretty obvious, really.  Port Stanley Grand Prix.

[NewMrMe]

 

 

Indycar went through something similar with Agustin Canapino -- what happened in the end there? His fans kept abusing drivers that he came into conflict with, and then he mysteriously lost his drive with Juncos. Was there behind-the-scenes pressure on Canapino, I wonder?

 

 

 

The problem with Canapino was that he didn't say anything against the dubious posts from his "fans" and was later shown to be actually liking the posts. That was the turning point. From then sponsors didn't want anything to do with him and that ultimately cost him his drive.

 

A key thing in my opinion is that drivers and teams, in particular those whose supporters are causing trouble need to be very publicly speaking out against it.

[AlexPrime]

I think that the second option should be used, the competitor should strongly condemns the hooligans. Unless they actually endorse them however, they IMO should get no sporting penalties.

[pdac]

There is only one way to stop it and that's to ban ordinary people from posting comments on the internet. So, it's with us forever now. Just get used to it and take it for what it is.

[CoolBreeze]

friggin delete social media.

[Otaku]

Crystal generation.

[Risil]

I think that the second option should be used, the competitor should strongly condemns the hooligans. Unless they actually endorse them however, they IMO should get no sporting penalties.

 

Thinking about Canapino, I think what we may see happen is that somebody like Colapinto finds it more difficult to secure a drive because the team (and their prospective temamate, if influential) does not want the aggro that comes with him. It's tough, in a way, because you're asking an athlete in his early 20s to negotiate the politics of distancing himself from his more extreme fans while still relying on their wallets (probably not literally the wingnuts but on social media if you're not shouting you're no one) to secure his F1 seat.

[mclarensmps]

This BS comes part and parcel with more mainstream popularity of the sport. It's existed in football from the dawn of time. Motorsports generally catered to a different age and economic demographic to something like Football, which was basically accessible to everyone.

Now that Motorsports is appealing to a wider fanbase, we're seeing more unscrupulous characters joining fandom.

On this very forum, there is a lot of partisanship, but because of excellent moderation, and a generally smaller user group, the situation has never gotten out of control. I mean I, myself, have hurled all sorts at certain current and former drivers, but not to the point of racially or otherwise abusing them.

On a wider social media spectrum, with the sheer volume of participation, it's very difficult to keep things in check. The racists, bigots, trolls, antagonists, whatever you want to call them will keep getting away with it until and unless the government figures out how to deal with online content.

Then we get into the other aspect of this which is how much of an Orwellian state are we willing to accept ourselves in. Long story short, this is a really difficult question to answer, a really difficult problem to solve, but the one thing that we can control, is being an example to others, and showing what we can be like, as fans, to each other. This forum is the only social media I follow for F1, and there is a reason for that.

[William Hunt]

Good post and meaningful topic.

 

The topic is likely far more complex as we realize and I lack the academic knowledge about this specific topic to dive deep in to it.

 

But personally I think (meaning I don't know, an opinion) that it is not really something of 'this time' or 'this era' because... in the past people did not have so many communication tools, let alone online tools / the internet, to spread messages / opinions or to threaten people etc.... And I do know a LOT about threats and abuse since my girlfriend / partner has received massive threats, death threats, racism, abuse as during her job as an investigative journalist for a major newspaper. In particular the racism. It was so bad and started during corona (yep also antivaxxers attacked her) that we needed police protection at one point. It was so bad it became a national news topic on tv so no I will not say her name here.

 

 

So it's a topic that is very important to me and that is also because we have experienced hate, both on and offline and it was hell and she ended up with a burnout and depression because of it and I was close to mental collapse too + had an emerging auto immune illness (that almost killed me last year, well it did kill me but for 3 minutes) at the time, pure terror.

 

So I do think this is an important topic that deserves respectful debate and attention. I find it very alarming that we have seen this behaviour and stalking patterns first in IndyCar and now in F1. But for the exact causes and what we can do to prevent it.... that's food for thought for proffessors or resarchers in behavioural psychology, sociology and people with academic knowledge about mass media etcetera...

But we can talk about it so that we keep in mind how important it is to treat each other with respect. Also keeping in mind that everyone is influenced by different experiences that colour our mind and influence our behaviour.

 

But honestly... I do not know what we can do about this. I have some ideas yes but they're all very very long term and again I'm not a specialist at all in this field of knowledge.

Edited by William Hunt, Yesterday, 20:12.

[absinthedude]

Stop shows like DTS encouraging fans, especially those coming new to F1, from being so partisan and tribal. 

 

I've been saying for years that DTS is actively dangerous. And now we're seeing it in several ways. Fans brought to F1 by DTS and similar presentations expect F1 to be as portrayed in those shows...and are far more likely to be or to become "tribal" in their interactions - much like football fans. F1 had the chance to nip this in the bud but failed to do so. Making up stupid rivalries and conflicts that don't exist just led people to the wrong idea about how to be an F1 fan, and how the drivers, fans and teams view each other. 

 

You reap what you sow.

[absinthedude]

I think that the second option should be used, the competitor should strongly condemns the hooligans. Unless they actually endorse them however, they IMO should get no sporting penalties.

 

That would help. Just using Colapinto as an example (because I am sure there are others, so not wishing to single him out)....if he makes it clear that he doesn't approve of the abuse of his fellow drivers, that he respects those drivers and that he doesn't want his fans doing anything other than respecting them too....it will help a little.

 

But you get Max and Lewis saying similar things....then go look at any Facebook or Instagram reel of those two and read the comments....it's pretty depressing. 

[messy]

I think it’s a wider societal issue and I have no idea how to combat it. Quite honestly, ask me ten years ago whether people should ever be prosecuted for anything they posted on twitter, Facebook or whatever and I’d have categorically said no. Freedom of speech, freedom to make mistakes and learn from them. But the world has changed, online abuse/bullying/even more sinister stuff is such a massive problem now and it’s perfectly capable of ruining people’s lives. Vulnerable people especially, people who aren’t fundamentally bad human beings but want somewhere to belong. Neurodiverse people who struggle with social stuff and get pulled into hatred rather than being supported or understood in the ‘real world’. But how do you tell apart the perpetrator from the victim? How do you police any of it fairly? I bloody hate social media personally. Particularly as a parent. It really worries me because it’s a minefield dressed up as something fun and appealing that can and does drag people into very dark places.

Obviously this abusing and death threats etc is abhorrent. It actually makes me not want Colapinto on the grid, but it’s not really his fault. Except - in this case where he’s the subject of this massively OTT, toxic so-called ‘fandom’ I do wonder whether the most powerful thing would be for him to publicly denounce and condemn these people and make it clear that he doesn’t want anything to do with people that do this kind of thing. But I can also understand why that might be quite a dangerous thing for him to do. He’s barely any more than a kid. So I’ve got no idea what to suggest other than endlessly going on about how much I hate social media.

Edited by messy, Yesterday, 20:49.

[Logiso]

Human minds aren't supposed to deal with so many peoples opinions at the same time. Also the way we react to negative emotion is a lot stronger than positive, so social media algorithms then push more content that will cause us to react negatively as the algorithms only goal is to get more interactions with the app. It's easy to judge people who write those awful things, but if you get sucked into looking at those kind of messages day after day everyone has a breaking point in the end. There needs to be a change to how the social media companies manage their algorithms and there needs to be better moderation on those sites as well.

 

With F1 specifically, you get a wide range of cultures mixing together and as sad as it is to say, in some areas of the world it's less unacceptable to say racist comments and stuff. Other than the drivers themselves making it clear to their fans that its not acceptable, there isn't much else to be done. Not really directly related to this situation, but I also feel like the fact Max and Lando have both spent a lot of time one way or another live on twitch has allowed some fans to form deeply unhealthy parasocial relationships with them and the way fans of both would insert themselves to defend their driver from the other one in terms of their human relationship with one another was just really awkward and strange to watch. It's only a matter of time until that blows up again this year with them being involved in a championship battle again. Sometimes I think the F1 community would be much more peaceful if some of the drivers reminded their fans that they are not friends and they have no idea who they are

[Ben1980]

Sport has irrational hatred. The issue being when people try and justify it, or don't accept its irrational.

This forum has it, someone hates someone because they said something, or don't get on with another, or drive for another team, it's all irrational nonsense.

People call soneone a bottle job, or declare anything about anyone without knowing that person. We see split second comments as soon as sonething has happened.

It's the world, unfortunately people think their own opinions are more important than they actually are.

[MikeTekRacing]

Sport has irrational hatred. The issue being when people try and justify it, or don't accept its irrational.

This forum has it, someone hates someone because they said something, or don't get on with another, or drive for another team, it's all irrational nonsense.

People call soneone a bottle job, or declare anything about anyone without knowing that person. We see split second comments as soon as sonething has happened.

It's the world, unfortunately people think their own opinions are more important than they actually are.

the anonimity behind keyboards lets a lot of people vent out their hate, which can be captured from other things in their lives.

We all have problems and we're sometimes jumpier, stuff happens in our lives - but social media just exposes that to a whole new level.

Closed communities, like this one, tend to be better behaved because we have some association with the community. We (at least I) misbehave sometimes, but we come back and we have some sense of belonging and willingness to engage with others. we know each other virtually.

 

On public social media - it's just hell.  If I were a sports psychologist I'd work a lot with the athlete on disconnecting from their online persona. 

[The Passenger]

As social media users, it's up to us to report this behaviour to the social media company.

Social media companies need to act on criminal posts and report the users to the authorities.

Making death threats is a crime, and the people that do this or even think about doing this need to know the internet is part of the real world and online behaviour can have real consequences.