41 replies to this topic

[JL14]

Just a thought that came to my mind... but do you think McLaren could 'forfeit' the WDC to Verstappen? Does it matter enough to them?

 

What I mean with that is the following:

- Last year, McLaren already clearly stated and showed that the WCC is what matters to them as a team. The WDC is, you could say, considered more a bonus to them and nice for the driver.

- Currently, McLaren is the only team that has both a performing car and 2 performing drivers. Bringing home loads of WCC points but who therefore are and will continue to be taking WDC points off of each other.

- Red Bull has started to make a bit of a resurgence it seems, sorting their car out, especially with Max. Max therefore is becoming more and more a WDC contender.

- Red Bull will - for now - definately keep a decent (development) effort in in a bid to secure that 5th WDC in a row for and with Max. But a proper WCC challenge from them is unlikely as they have an enormous points gap to overcome and Tsunoda most likely won't be up there at the sharp end every weekend soon.

- Ferrari doesn't have the peformance in the car atm, and even if they start to sort it out, a proper WCC challenge from them is unlikely. Since it's unlikely they will overtake the McLaren peformance wise and they have an enormous points gap to overcome (and Hamilton might have some difficult weekends still). Also, because of this, it doesn't make sense for them to put too much development into this year's car and compromise 2026.

- Mercedes doesn't have the peformance in the car atm, and even if they start to sort it out, a proper WCC challenge from them is unlikely. Since it's unlikely they will overtake the McLaren peformance wise, they have an enormous points gap to overcome and Antonelli probably will have some difficult weekends still. Also, because of this, it doesn't make sense for them to put too much development into this year's car and compromise 2026.

 

With this in mind and the 2026 rule change, I can see McLaren deciding to not risk compromising 2026 in the slightest way by putting 'unnecessary' development work into this car. Since even if the Red Bull becomes consistently strong enough for Max to mix it with Lando and Piastri every weekend, they don't need to for the WCC - their car is and will remain strong enough to fight at the front and keep bringing home the WCC points with both drivers - and I can see them not wanting to just in a bid to keep Norris and Piastri ahead of the Red Bull of Max to secure the WDC with one of them.

It might even make their life easier if Norris and Pistri slowly start to fade in the WDC fight against Verstappen in terms of internal decisions, relationships, team spirit etc.

 

 

[pacificquay]

No

The recency bias is so strong in this thread

Edited by pacificquay, Yesterday, 21:51.

[kumo7]

how about stop racing?

[KWSN - DSM]

McLaren may say WCC, which is not true.

 

McLaren and all other teams very much would like to win the WCC, every single one of them want to win the WDC more - The WCC means nothing to anyone other a checkbox, it is the WDC and the WDC only which builds the teams story, which is remembered through time.

[jonpollak]

For recency I give you....

 

Penske should have to sell his team to Dale Coyne.

 

Right?

Jp

[Nobody]

Sure, but why would Norris or Piastri want to forfeit it?

Edited by Nobody, Yesterday, 22:06.

[Ben1980]

Im not sure what the actual point is? That Mclaren shouldn't tell the drivers to race? If they beat Max more often than not, he isn't really an issue. If he beats them more often than not, than he beats them.

[Kao18]

Of course it matters to them. There is no doubt in my mind every single team would rather win the WDC.

WCC’s are forgotten, WDC’s not.

[kumo7]

what makes man excited about go racing? certainly not about doing what AI says? AI has statistic data, but it does not make guys excited nor learn things. AI can only learn because the rest just does things and create cases to learn. So the day we stop racing is the day we stop learning, i.e. die…

[mclarensmps]

 

With this in mind and the 2026 rule change, I can see McLaren deciding to not risk compromising 2026 in the slightest way by putting 'unnecessary' development work into this car.

McLaren has decidedly NOT gone into this season with this mentality, because they want BOTH titles. Red Bull had their first big upgrade for this season at Imola. McLaren have not yet brought their first big upgrade. They will not stop developing this car, the whole reason they redesigned a car for this season was because this car has more development scope than last year's design.

The only thing McLaren does that compromises their progress towards the WDC is that they let their drivers fight. But that's why I love this team, and would never want them to change.

[GlenWatkins]

McLaren may say WCC, which is not true.

 

McLaren and all other teams very much would like to win the WCC, every single one of them want to win the WDC more - The WCC means nothing to anyone other a checkbox, it is the WDC and the WDC only which builds the teams story, which is remembered through time.

Thanks, but I disagree.   Constructors is king and = $$ and that's why the teams compete.  Drivers are temporary, teams with the pedigree of McLaren are in it for the long haul.  IMO, a history of WCCs highlights the exceptionalism of the entire organization over time, and shows that the team can repeatably put drivers in a position to be successful.  Even the best drivers would be no where without a good car.

Edited by GlenWatkins, Yesterday, 22:57.

[MikeTekRacing]

Thanks, but I disagree.   Constructors is king and = $$ and that's why the teams compete.  Drivers are temporary, teams with the pedigree of McLaren are in it for the long haul.  IMO, a history of WCCs highlights the exceptionalism of the entire organization over time, and shows that the team can repeatably put drivers in a position to be successful.  Even the best drivers would be no where without a good car.

constructor money come from WCC but sponsorship money and exposure come more from being the WDC (and running no 1). More TV exposure, more fame, more recognition, more money.

[DRSwing]

The main reason why McLaren would say that the WDC is not important is because their drivers are not good enough to beat Max, like last year when they couldn’t seriously challenge for the drivers title despite having the best car for at least two thirds of the season.

 

Every team wants to bring the WDC home more so than the constructors title. 

[zeph]

WCC is $$$, but WDC carries more prestige. I think they can have both this season, why wouldn't they wanna go for it?

 

It just means that come summer they're gonna have to figure out in which basket to put their eggs.

[MikeTekRacing]

under the current cost cap, for the top teams, WCC is more about profit - and the prestige of being the reigning world champion is huge.
Nobody refers this year on any channel to Mclaren as the reigning world champions - but to Max, and the story that he won 4 in a row...

[loki]

constructor money come from WCC but sponsorship money and exposure come more from being the WDC (and running no 1). More TV exposure, more fame, more recognition, more money.

The bulk of the funding comes from series participation.  It’s only the people in this thread that see the driver trophy as more important than the constructor.  Good bragging rights sure.  Money not so much.  Because the WDC comes with no money.

[MikeTekRacing]

The bulk of the funding comes from series participation.  It’s only the people in this thread that see the driver trophy as more important than the constructor.  Good bragging rights sure.  Money not so much.  Because the WDC comes with no money.

https://www.motorspo...rs-really-make/

is 10M really that important for Ferrari or Mclaren? 

 

"only people in this thread" - not, quite the opposite. The fans know about the WCC. The public knows about the champion. And that is one, the driver. And the champion attracts contracts.
Suddenly those 10M look like peanuts.

 

edit: these are sponsorship money Ferrari has https://www.sportcal...uderia-ferrari/

Edited by MikeTekRacing, Today, 00:45.

[loki]

https://www.motorspo...rs-really-make/

is 10M really that important for Ferrari or Mclaren? 

 

"only people in this thread" - not, quite the opposite. The fans know about the WCC. The public knows about the champion. And that is one, the driver. And the champion attracts contracts.
Suddenly those 10M look like peanuts.

 

edit: these are sponsorship money Ferrari has https://www.sportcal...uderia-ferrari/

 

Can you substantiate this “money will come” to the driver’s champ?  Sponsorship os driven by hospitality not personality.

[KWSN - DSM]

1994 - Do we talk about Schumacher WDC or Williams WCC? - Schumacher

1999 - Do we talk more about Hakkinen WDC or Ferrari WCC? - Hakkinen

2008 - Do we talk more about Hamilton WDC or Ferrari WCC? - Hamilton

2021 - Do we talk more about Verstappen WDC or Mercedes WCC? - Verstappen

2024 - Do we talk more about Verstappen WDC or McLaren WCC? - Verstappen

[MikeTekRacing]

Can you substantiate this “money will come” to the driver’s champ?  Sponsorship os driven by hospitality not personality.

Sponsorship is driven by fame and what makes the news.
Max winning 2024 is the story of the media. Not Mclaren for WCC. That's a niche market for enthusiasts. 

[MikeTekRacing]

from Gemini

Generally, the reigning F1 champion (the driver) is more known to the general public than the reigning F1 team champion (the constructor).

Here's why:

• Individual Heroes: F1, like many individual sports, tends to elevate its top athletes to celebrity status. People connect with the drivers, their personalities, rivalries, and individual achievements. Names like Lewis Hamilton, Michael Schumacher, Ayrton Senna, and Max Verstappen are globally recognized, even by those who aren't avid F1 fans.
• Narrative Focus: Media coverage and fan discussions often center around the drivers' championship battle. The storylines of individual drivers vying for the title are more compelling for a broader audience than the team-focused Constructors' Championship.
• Simplified Understanding: For a casual observer, it's easier to grasp "who is the best driver" than to understand the complex interplay of a team's two drivers contributing to a constructors' points total.
• Historical Legacy: While teams have their legacies, the drivers are often the ones who achieve legendary status and are remembered for their multiple championships.

While the Constructors' Championship is incredibly important to the teams themselves (it determines prize money and prestige within the sport), and hardcore fans follow it closely, the driver's championship typically captures the public imagination more widely

[kumo7]

Sports are about playing games and becoming champions. Sporting events are originally about individuals, so WDC is the nearest sporting champion.

WCC is there because in F1, the teams act as "legal" individuals. 

 

Guys on the street talk about WDC above WCC because this "legal" individual is something not so popular. 

[zeph]

Similarly, I have a bunch of favorite drivers through the ages. From Lauda and Piquet to Senna, Häkkinen, and Alonso .

 

But I have never really had a favorite team.

 

I guess it's different in team sports like soccer or basketball, there are teams that just have a diehard fan base, regardless of which players are there. The only F1 team that has something like that is Ferrari.

Edited by zeph, Today, 03:00.

[George Costanza]

If McLaren aren't careful, this will play out like 1995. But it is extremely early.

[BertoC]

What?! It would only make sense if the WCC was under threat like in 2024. This season it doesnt make sense as the WCC is almost a sure thing. They'll fight the WDC to the end with both drivers, if it doesnt work too bad, but at least they did the right thing.

[Benchulo]

Norris and Piastri are not taking points away from each other, but also from Verstappen. Looking from a different perspective, Verstappen have it more tricky this this year, as he has to focus on beating two drivers for the WDC, in a slower car. 

Edited by Benchulo, Today, 05:49.

[jonklug]

sorry no offense intended, but WHAT? Come on now

[pacificquay]

from Gemini

but what do you think?

 

rather than some lazy AI contribution 

[Mc_Silver]

Some people have very creative imagination really

[JimmyClark]

sorry no offense intended, but WHAT? Come on now

This. To think any team would give up a WDC willingly is madness.

[MikeTekRacing]

but what do you think?

rather than some lazy AI contribution

I wrote several posts saying what I think.
You could have read them before seeing that as a lazy contribution

[RPM40]

Piastri currently has a clear championship lead over Verstappen and has beat him in 3 of the last 4 races?

Yes Verstappen made a very opportunistic move at turn 1 but he’s not going to get that opportunity at every race.

What different could mclaren do? They allowed Norris to take points from their championship leader, but it’s too early to be implementing team orders.

If they had Piastri and a clear, miles off subservient driver it’s not like their points lead would be significantly greater. If the McLaren drivers can lock the front row it will remove Verstappen’s chances too.

[Baddoer]

Are you serious

[Kao18]

McLaren has decidedly NOT gone into this season with this mentality, because they want BOTH titles. Red Bull had their first big upgrade for this season at Imola. McLaren have not yet brought their first big upgrade. They will not stop developing this car, the whole reason they redesigned a car for this season was because this car has more development scope than last year's design.

The only thing McLaren does that compromises their progress towards the WDC is that they let their drivers fight. But that's why I love this team, and would never want them to change.

 

The let their drivers fight is a bit overblown imo and I am not sure it has cost them anything in the WDC this far. What does it mean anyway if they dont, that one driver will always have to move over no matter the circumstances?

 

The problem is that neither driver is really outperforming the other, so they dont have any other option really, would be silly for any team to pick one at this stage.

 

I am pretty sure that once either driver is well ahead and in a close WDC fight 'we let the drivers fight' is thrown out of the window pretty quickly.

Edited by Kao18, Today, 09:57.

[New Britain]

Thanks, but I disagree.   Constructors is king and = $$ and that's why the teams compete.  Drivers are temporary, teams with the pedigree of McLaren are in it for the long haul.  IMO, a history of WCCs highlights the exceptionalism of the entire organization over time, and shows that the team can repeatably put drivers in a position to be successful.  Even the best drivers would be no where without a good car.

 

Thank you for making these salient points. 

 

I have not been in a Formula One team, but I have been in a team with an international reputation, factory drivers, et al., and I am sure the ethos there was similar to F1.

In an F1 team, 99% of the people working (their asses off) there are not drivers and are not judged by driving, but they are judged by how good the car is and how well the team functions. That is what the WCC is meant to represent (assuming competent - any competent - drivers).

Any given driver may be there today and leave tomorrow. In almost all cases, the reason that the team want him to win has nothing to do with who he is and, rather, is only because he is driving their car.

It should not be forgotten that the teams pay staff bonuses based on where they finish in WCC. Although Verstappen won the WDC last year, Red Bull did not pay their staff bonuses.

 

In the one-off case of Red Bull, McLaren, and the allocation of resources between 2025 and 2026, I suspect that Red Bull will throw as many resources as possible towards developing this year's car because they are desperate to give Verstappen enough reason to stay with them, even though they are not going to win the WCC. McLaren does not have that problem.

 

There is value to the team in winning WDC insofar as it may help to attract sponsorship money although, with the cost cap, that is much less important than it used to be. And Zak Brown and his marketing team have demonstrated that you don't need to have the Drivers' champion in order to bring in loads of new sponsors.

 

The WDC is what gets journalists' and media attention and the drivers are treated like film stars, whilst people who make huge contributions to their teams' success such as Peter Prodromou and Hannah Schmidt are unknown to the vast majority of the audience. One should not however confuse that with what matters inside a team, where the only real recognition they get is finishing high up in the Constructors' Championship.

[danmills]

No chance. The drivers are their for the WDC, any forgeit won't be intentional.

 

Are you suggesting Verstappen will still win more races than Piastri or Norris can when they have the better car?

 

Based on the season so far, nope.

 

It'll be a three or two way fight to the last fifth of the season where it may boil down to two.

[1player]

[7MGTEsup]

1986 and 2007 are proof that letting your drivers fight eachother can result in the loss of the WDC. Piquet and Honda were not happy with Williams in 1986 as they thought Mansell should have played a supporting roll rather than take the fight to Piquet. Similar happened in 2007 Hamilton and Alonso were so focused on eachother they forgot about Kimi. It has probably happened at other times but I can't think of any at the moment.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't fight for the WDC within the team but it does have a potential down side.

[Joseki]

1986 and 2007 are proof that letting your drivers fight eachother can result in the loss of the WDC. Piquet and Honda were not happy with Williams in 1986 as they thought Mansell should have played a supporting roll rather than take the fight to Piquet. Similar happened in 2007 Hamilton and Alonso were so focused on eachother they forgot about Kimi. It has probably happened at other times but I can't think of any at the moment.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't fight for the WDC within the team but it does have a potential down side.

2007 McLaren lost the WDC because Alonso crashed alone in Fuji and Hamilton beached himself in China.

That season is always used as the poster child of "team mates fighting costs the team the title", but it's actually 2 drivers bottling it at the end.

[PrinceBira]

I think ‘forfeiting’ is a weird take.

Why give up something so easily?

Mclaren want both WCC and WDC. The appriach they now have is - slightly - risking WDC. It’s suboptimal.

They seem to accept this. That means - and that is the real question! - they prioritize WCC.

[PayasYouRace]

2007 McLaren lost the WDC because Alonso crashed alone in Fuji and Hamilton beached himself in China.
That season is always used as the poster child of "team mates fighting costs the team the title", but it's actually 2 drivers bottling it at the end.

I guess the argument is that if there had been a clear hierarchy in the team, a mistake like that could be absorbed by the lead driver.

If it was Alonso, he’d have been further ahead in points and he might have got away with his crash in Fuji. Vice versa for Lewis in China.

Even more so, if they hadn’t been racing each other hard, they might not have ended up making those mistakes. Lewis’s off in China was famously because his side of the team were worried about Alonso. They’d have not left him out on such worn tyres if they’d have been willing to swap position later.

The problem is, how do you choose a favourite when your drivers are evenly matched in both skill and points?

[KavB]

McLaren have not won a WDC in nearly 20 years. There is zero chance they would give that up just to have a slightly better chance for the next regulations. It is a huge risk to do that. Just look at BMW in 2008, where they could have won the title but sacrificed their only shot at it for a car which turned out to be dreadful in 2009.