69 replies to this topic

[Vitesse2]

A stop press item, with a small photo, in the July issue of "Classic & Sports Car" reveals that what is believed to be a P-Wagen (the prototype of the Auto Union Typ A) has emerged from hiding in Scotland after apparently having been smuggled out of Russia by an ex-Lotus mechanic. Full details are promised in the July issue of "Motor Sport". If true, this must be the discovery of the century!

Form an orderly queue at your newsagent now!!!

[Brian O Flaherty]

for those of us here for educational puroposes is there any chance of a brief history of the car it prototyped ? oh ye of monstrous knowledge

[bobbo]

. . .And maybe a photo or five??

Bobbo

[Vitesse2]

The implication in the very small taster in "Classic & Sports Car" is that this may be the first prototype (there is a reference to fabric body panels) but they've obviously put this in just to whet people's appetites for "Motor Sport" (they are both published by Haymarket). Strangely, when I checked back in the June "Motor Sport" the story is mentioned, but only as third lead in 'coming next month' - perhaps things have moved on since that went to press.

As to the P-wagen, probably the best background to it is (inevitably) in Chris Nixon's "Racing the Silver Arrows", repeated in shortened form in his "Auto Union Album". This reveals how a chance meeting between Hans Stuck and Adolf Hitler in 1925 led ultimately to Hitler offering a subsidy to Auto Union to build a GP car for Stuck to drive. Auto Union bought Ferdinand Porsche's P-Wagen design which drew its inspiration from the earlier Benz Tropfenwagen and was based around a V16 engine which Porsche had designed for Prinz Hermann zu Leiningen, the wealthy German amateur.
Hitler agreed the subsidy in May 1933 and Porsche put the finishing touches to his design and Auto Union had built five cars by the time the first one was tested by team manager Willy Walb on the Nurburgring Sudschleife on November 13th - quite an achievement! By January Auto Union were testing at Monza and on the Milan-Varese autostrada (252km/h = 157mph) and in March Stuck set three Class C world records at Avus .. I could go on, but there's plenty been published on the AU-MB story.

And photos, Bobbo? Only wish I could - so far there is one tiny picture in C&SC, about 2 inches by 1, which shows what looks like a Typ A against a background that looks very anonymous. I think we'll have to wait for "Motor Sport", which is due out on June 16th.

[Marco94]

I have read the article and it is really crap. They mention that a former Team Lotus mechanic has found some sort of v-16 engine and chassis. Nothing can be traced as all numbers are erased. The man claims to have been aware of the car for a few dozen years. Restoration is definitely not like the work done for Audi, by ??? That's about it. A yes, forgot the usual **** about how the cars came about and what they did. AKA "Racing the Silver Arrow" in one page, with some news about this particular car included. A real dog of an article.

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by Marco94
some sort of v-16 engine and chassis

As usual, sound basis for a repl.. uhh, .. ground-up restoration.

[David McKinney]

Have to disagree with you Marco. The article was OK. It was the man's story that is highly suspect - and that came across in the article.

[Gary C]

have to agree with you Dave. It all sounds miles too dodgy to me.

[Hans Etzrodt]

This is quite an interesting story but it contains some doubtful statements and not enough questions. What is not mentioned is that the engine could have possibly been assembled in Russia from spare parts, which the Russians had taken in 1945 together with all manufacturing machinery. The whole car could have been made up that way from loose spare parts instead of a complete car having been dismantled in Russia and then shipped part by part as, quote:”….some two years ago the mysterious items began to arrive in Scotland.” unquote.

The story does not say whether Terry Wright, owner of this car, had ever seen it complete in Russia and from the text I conclude, he never saw this car before, just heard about it. We are also being told about all the separate parts shipped and that the wheelbase of this chassis was different from the one used by the original Type P or A cars. But the story gives no measurements about the car's wheelbase, a missed opportunity, and therefore the year of the chassis cannot be traced. Audi Tradition people looked at the car and doubt it is an original.

Finally, I cannot believe that Terry Wright never drove the car, just idled the engine. Come on! Something isn't right.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

As a newbie here on TNF, I've been reading the old posts trying to get up to speed on the various threads. What a great place!

The thread on AU/Sokel was highly impressive and very informative.

In reading this thread on the alleged Typ. A that I recalled from an old MotorSport, I noticed the last post on this subject by Hans Etzrodt is almost two years old.

Has anymore info surfaced on this in the intervening two years?

[Brun]

Nah, it was a big scam, if I recall correctly. I've seen the article and the car looked very genuine and impressive, but it turned out to be a fake.

[Vitesse2]

"Alleged P-Wagen" was right.

In short, it wasn't!

Originally posted by Doug Nye, Feb 17th 2002
Just as an aside - my old mentor DSJ would be bouncing off the rev limiter after what's left of his magazine last year published a feature on 'an A-Type Auto Union' rediscovered in Russia and restored in Scotland. It's appears in fact to be a ground up facsimile - and when Audi excitedly sent engineers to examine it they were given the clue when they apparently found its engine and gearbox to be painted wood. The first question one should have asked oneself when hearing that a A-Typead survived would be 'Funny, never heard of a 1934 car being preserved through to the war...?' - secondly 'AU were notoriously strapped for cash, surely year by year they re-cycled and updated virtually everything they could?' - and thirdly, sudden emergence in the low-rent area,in the hands of somebody with previous form for owning cars with debatable history. Sadly 'MS' fell for it hook, line, and sinker... This was disappointing.
DCN

Not that they ever mentioned it again .....

Something that was probably it was offered for sale late last year in Classic & Sports Car.

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=24389
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=36318

[Brun]

Just found the article again. Nice pictures though!

Anyway, this is a nice one for my new article - the 8W overview on all Auto Unions existing today. The real ones, the replicas, the postwar spinoffs and the fakes. With detailed history, of course. Quite a lot of work

By the way, Belgian Audi importer D'Ieteren owns a beautiful Typ A replica, made by C&G of course. We recently saw it at the Amsterdam Motorshow. Wow, loved it more than all the new stuff on display....

And Richard, how come you're always quicker to jump on these AU-threads than I am?

Oh, and before I forget: welcome to the forum, Dennis! You're going to love it here.

[dretceterini]

I'll give them $10, even if it is a replica

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Brun
And Richard, how come you're always quicker to jump on these AU-threads than I am?

Because I spend too much time here! Check my post count I'm now number 40 in the Top 50 list .... and still rising!

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by Brun
Oh, and before I forget: welcome to the forum, Dennis! You're going to love it here.

Thank you Brun. I have had a ball so far.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
Thank you Brun. I have had a ball so far.

And that with only the surface barely scratched!

Keep it up...

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Because I spend too much time here! Check my post count I'm now number 40 in the Top 50 list .... and still rising!

Congratulations Richard, and as a number 40 always with good inputs, informations and questions.


Welcome Dennis, if you like this story about AU, Sokol and so on, than you are right here. In this forum is the power of motorsport history competence. If you want to know more about
teh Typ A, I posted some informations from the UK Audi Magazine in Brunsfirst thread on TNF,


BTW: Brun, do you know more about that Typ A from Belgium. Will the car drive sometimes, somewhere, is there any printed info about the car?

Seems a little bit ingnorred the Typ Aalso in press, perhaps because the car is a replica? I never read a word in German or Swiss car magazines?

[Brun]

Originally posted by Holger Merten

Seems a little bit ingnorred the Typ Aalso in press, perhaps because the car is a replica? I never read a word in German or Swiss car magazines?

Perhaps they don't know where Belgium is

[Brun]

BTW, the P-Wagen was a Porsche development of course. Now, to take a nice detour: I recently came across a translated story by Caracciola. In it, he describes how he started racing in the 1920s (I think?). He also mentions Dr. Porsche working for Mercedes. I didn't know that. Guess I'm just not very well informed about the early Mercedes days? Someone want to tell me more about it?

As another cool side note: my girlfriend recently showed me these albums her grandfather made when he was young. You know, with these little stickers that came with cigars. You could collect a series of a particular subject and buy special albums to keep 'em in. They were from the 1920s too and we browsed through them. Nice series like 'bird pictures', 'Berlin cabaret stars', 'countries of the world', 'famous bridges', 'famous racing drivers', 'world's fastest trains'...

WHOAH

*backbackbackquickgoback* famous racing drivers?

Cool! It featured priceless small color retouches of (amongst others) Caracciola, with small bios to go with it. Told her she could make quite some money putting those on Ebay, but we agreed it would be a shame, being family heritage and such. Think I'll carry a scanner with me though, one day, and digitize them into this forum.

[Ray Bell]

They might make a perfect avatar for you, Brun...

But then, the one you have now is very, very nice... and I knew that Ferdinand Porsche worked for M-B or Mercedes or Benz... didn't he design the Tropfenwagen or whatever it was called?

[Brun]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
They might make a perfect avatar for you, Brun...

But then, the one you have now is very, very nice...

Thank you. I take it through the carwash every saturday That reminds me. Is it this late already? Gotta put on my raincoat, it's wet in the carwash when driving Auto Union

[Doug Nye]

Dr P's prime product for Mercedes-Benz was the S-class, SS, SSK etc - the Benz Tropfenwagen was Dr Nibel's design I seem to recall.

Regarding the Scottish 'P-Wagen' I had an interesting conversation just this week with Terry Wright, the gentleman who says he has restored the car from a chassis, some suspension parts, a gearbox and no fewer than three engines. He managed to get one engine running only for it to blow itself apart on the test-bed, destroying itself quite thoroughly. The engine currently installed in the car is filled with a rigid-setting preservative foam which a new owner could sluice out with solvent in preparation for running.

The 'wooden' story from Audi's visiting engineers is a translation misunderstanding - they saw the original casting patterns and mistook them for what he told them was the rebuilt engine.

What has happened to the damaged bits of the blown-up engine? He threw them away.

When first retrieved from the Ukraine he had some fabric covered body sections but did not recognise them as being part of the car. He did not throw them away but they are consigned to "another project".

He brought the car out as part of a string of deals which also included a Supermarine Spitfire Mark V and another aircraft which he rebuilt and which "sold well enough for me to be able to offer the P-Wagen at a fraction of what it is really worth"...

Finally, he "...has known of the existence and whereabouts of the P-Wagen bits ever since I first saw them in the Ukraine back in 1960 when I was with the RAF...".

Hmm - 1960 - fraught year in Soviet Union/Western relations - RAF serviceman apparently visiting the Ukraine... does a pattern begin to emerge here?

One last thing, Mr Wright comes across as a very pleasant bloke.

DCN

[Vitesse2]

For Brun: a quick resumé of Ferdinand Porsche's career:)

In 1893 he was apprenticed as an electrical engineer at Bela Egger in Vienna. By 1897 he was head of their experimental dept. Engaged by Jacob Lohner to design electric cars - won 1900 Semmering hillclimb on a Lohner-Porsche system car (motors on each wheel). He continued to experiment with this, plus petrol-electric vehicles, until 1918.

Joined Austro-Daimler 1905. First major design the 1910 Prince Henry. Also drove Austro-Daimlers in competition. War work meant A-D abandoned racing, but when they returned Porsche was responsible for the famous Sascha of the early 20s. A-D again withdrew from racing and Porsche moved to Mercedes, perfecting the 1924 Targa Florio model and building the straight 8 2 litre GP car with which Caracciola won the first German GP in 1926. He also built the Model K (Kompressor), which spawned a whole series of supercharged cars and would ultimately lead to the 1930s GP cars. In 1929 he proposed a 3 litre DOHC straight 8 Mercedes GP car, but it was never built.

Porsche left Mercedes in 1929 and spent a year or so at Steyr before setting up his own design bureau in Stuttgart. The economic conditions of the time meant there was no demand for competition cars and the first couple of years were spent on designing what became the KdF-wagen/Volkswagen, originally for Zundapp, who withdrew when motorbike sales picked up again. He went on to work for NSU and Wanderer: thus the AU connection! He worked for a number of manufacturers - German, French, Swedish, Austrian and Italian - and his trailing arm ifs even appeared on later ERAs.

He had no real involvement with the AU GP cars after 1937, being preoccupied with the Volkswagen but in 1939 he produced two very different competition cars. Firstly three aerodynamic versions of the Volkswagen were built for the cancelled Berlin-Rome Rally which was scheduled for September 1939. The second was the Mercedes Benz LSR car which Doug kindly shared pictures of.

During the war I believe he was involved in tank design, among other things - his post-war career you know, of course!

[Holger Merten]

Thanks Richard for the concentrated Porsche biographie. I'd like to add, that Porsche and his son in law Piech (Ferdinand Piech's father) only had one idea. To get work to the Volkswagen company. So they built everything there. There was book published in Germany years ago which discribes the history of VW during the war. And it was not really positiv what Porsche and Piech did during the years.

[dmj]

May I introduce you a place well worth to see? http://www.porschemuseum.at/ Sadly it's been some 8 years since I was there but I see they are having some new stock now so it's certainly worth revisiting...

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Interesting read on the Scottish P-Wagen. Sounds fairly dodgy.

Does anyone know of the final disposition of the original P-Wagen's during the war? Are there any known references on what happened?

On a related note, I recently received a 1/18 scale model of the AU D-Type by CMC. I would highly recommend this to the interested as I thought the craftsmanship was first rate and a good value given the scarcity of larger scale AU's.

[Ray Bell]

Dennis... there's a thread that does discuss this 'disposition' and travel arrangements and things...

Brun and Holger devoted a bit of time to it, but I don't remember which thread it was.

[Holger Merten]

Dennis, what happened to the AUs, a long story. But please keep in mind that after the war more or less 12-18 ( I think 16) Au's went to russia, and there they were tested less professional by the russians. As Ray said: Brun and I spent some time on it (I'm working about AU history since 20 years), and I think I posted some posts here in different threads about the history about the AU-Silverarrows, which are the most excellent cars, depending to their mystery history.


If you want to know more, search through the threads or ask some concrcete questions. But an Typ A doesn't exist any longer. (Without that replica).

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Ray and Holger,

Thanks for the reply. I will do some searching through the threads to learn more. Yes, I'm aware that none of the Typ. A's survived the war. I'm particularily interested to know what happened to them once the Russians took custody.

But I'm sure that I will find the answers in your threads.

Thanks gentlemen.

[Holger Merten]

Dennis, you will find answers. And they are unfortunetly not good. Sometimes I wish the AU's found another way to the west.

[Doug Nye]

Holger - I'd be interested to hear your informed opinion on the likelihood of a 1934-model 'P-Wagen' surviving in reputedly substantially unchanged form until 1945, in order to be commandeered by the Soviets and taken into the USSR?

My impression of Auto Union's racing programme is very much that they maximised useage and minimised cost by a consistent programme of updating, conversion and modification of existing hardware, in addition to what was really as little all-new construction each year as they could get away with.

By 1936 there would have been little use for a large proportion of 'P-Wagen' componentry, never mind an assembled car or fabric-covered body sections. My understanding is that 1934 chassis frames would very probably have been re-used through 1935-36.

Is this consistent with evidence you have found?

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Doug, I must check the old documents, but I think you are right: AU used more or less everything to built up new cars. And there are many differencies between the P-Wagen or Typ A .

And from Typ A to B there are some more differencies in the bodywork, as also in mechanics. Although I have some pictures from 1935 showing the garage, where the cars were built up , and you can find also longtail part s(which were only used two times in 1934) hanging at the wall.

But I'll look into the sources. For me it seems impossible that a really early P-Wagen, or a Typ A, survived until 1945, if I understood your question right?

[Holger Merten]

First of all, I'd like to say, that the P-Wagen for me is the car that was used for the first tests in 1933/1934 until the SRA with Stuck on Avus. Afterwards I'm talking about the Typ A.

From this P-Wagen two were built, one in 1933, the other one in 1934 and it was used for the tests in Monza in january, together with the other one.

In my documents I found that in 1934 5 cars were built and in 1935 7 cars were built (3 of them from Typ A components), the other 4 cars were completly new ones.

I I had a look at the 1934 season, I think that AU started racing with the modified P-Wagen (bodywork/engine) as Typ A - three cars for Stuck, Momberger and Leiningen. Afterwards they built up three other cars, so we have the 5 cars for 1934, one is from 1933. And if I have a look at the calendar and the diary of the racing dept. than it was always necessary to have one hillclimber, some cars for the races, some cars for testrides. So, if the question would be, if a P-Wagen, or a Typ A (if you like to follow my terminolgy) survided, I would say NO. They needed every part of the cars, to built up the next new "collection" for the next race.

And with Kirchberg I come to the result, although -for example- 5 cars were built in 1934, you never had the chance to see 5 cars completly together, because AU used components and mixed them different bodies with different engines and different gearboxes and so on.

So in my opinion a car from the 1934 season didn't survived: The only chance a car may had, was to survive as a exhibition car, but I never saw picture with a Typ A in an AU dependance or something like this. (Without the Stuck P-Wagen on the German Automonbil Exhibition in 1934 after the SRA.)


BTW: Later AU built up 12 - 14 cars per saison and her it is the same. You never got the chance to see them all together.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
So in my opinion a car from the 1934 season didn't survived: The only chance a car may had, was to survive as a exhibition car, but I never saw picture with a Typ A in an AU dependance or something like this. (Without the Stuck P-Wagen on the German Automonbil Exhibition in 1934 after the SRA.)

Exactly - your findings are more or less the same as ours. Do we both, then, have grave doubts about the perfectly pleasant Mr Wright's machine - fact or fantasy...

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Doug, two weeks ago, I talked to HJ Weise (Schröder &Weise). And he told me a funny story: some years ago they stayed in contact to argentina, where somebody told them he had parts of an AU Silverarrow. As you know, both guys could ask so special questions about parst, that they can decide, if the guy from argentina would know, what he is talking about. So Schröder & Weise arranged evrything to visit argentina, pay th guy, and flew the parts out with the plane of the German ambassador (truly they arranged that). Whe they came to argentina (with MONEY) they saw.......NOTHING.

Schröder told me that there is always a good story arround the AU's, cause this means Money, but he only believes, what he has seen. And that's not so much in the last 30 years, therefore:My answer would be fake, by all I know since 20 years about the Silverarrows.

BTW: In the last month I was in contact with so much people from Zwickau, Chemnitz, about the Sokol (Let's say Typ 650 History and asked them BTW about the Silverarrows from Zwickau, so I got a deeper impression about the Race dept. and how it works.)


If I know a picture about one silverarrow (Typ A) in one of the AU dependances in 30s, I would make a question mark. But I have seen so many pictures to decide which one came into the Audi written and published History "Im Zeichen der Vier Ringe" (500 pages for the early 45 years,5 years to work, archives from Washington to russia, a very well done book) from 1992, and I couldn't remember about such a pictures.


But I'd like to know more and see more about that article, may it's possible somebody could scan it for me and mail it. Thanks.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
But I'd like to know more and see more about that article, may it's possible somebody could scan it for me and mail it.

Holger, if you are referring to the article in MotorSport regarding the Scottish P-Wagen, I would be pleased to scan and e-mail to you.

[Holger Merten]

That would be GREAT. Thanks Dennis.

[Holger Merten]

Doug, Dennis more about the situation in the AU racing deptartment in my article on
8W.

Here you can read a concentrate situation about the AU racing dept in the early years.

Here a look into the garage from 1935. This is mechanic Voigt, working for some parts for the Lucca-car:

All parts and components are hanging at the wall and were used to built up new cars, during the season.


If we go back to the start to the 1934 season at Avus, the three cars of Stuck, Leiningen and Momberger were modified cars compared to the P-Wagen, may one or two based on a P-Wagen.

Then we have the special hillclimber of Stuck at Schauinsland, this is the only car which was specially prepared and used only for hillclimbs (but also and always built up with new components, the 5th car was used for training sessions, but like the others always completly built up during the season and travelling through europe.

Here the hillclimber at Schauinsland 19th august 1934, the car was not ready in the middle of the season:


The only car, which reminds me to the P-Wagen is this one, used at Klausen 5th, august 1934, with modified body:

[Holger Merten]

Doug, Dennis, after I saw that article of the "P-Wagen" I came to just one result. This car must be a fake, it is no P-Wagen, and no Typ A, it is more or less a mix from three years of scanning pictures, Looks like a melange from Typ A/B and C components (engine). But this is what I can by looking on the pictures.


But that such a car should survice from 1934 to 1939 at the AU race dept., impossible.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Holger, sorry for the file size of the scans but I wanted you to have the highest resolution possible of the photos for your review.

It appears to have been useful.

I also read your attachment on the Typ. C obtained by Audi Tradition from Riga. I examined this car at the Riga Motor Museum in the early 90's prior to the deal with Audi Tradition. Of course I am no expert in the field but the car looked to be as original as I have seen at that time. I haven't had the opportunity to see the car after the restoration by C&G but I'm quite sure that Doug has.

As you noted, the Scottish P-wagen appears to be a replica, it would be of interest to know where the key components were obtained by Terry Wright. From Doug's post, it seems rather doubtful that Mr. Wright would be forthcoming in shedding additional light on that subject.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
(...) it would be of interest to know where the key components were obtained by Terry Wright. From Doug's post, it seems rather doubtful that Mr. Wright would be forthcoming in shedding additional light on that subject.

Yes, that would be interesting. Really.

[Doug Nye]

"From the Ukraine" - "...I first saw them in 1960" - where? - "....Oh, the Ukraine" -

There were cars taken to Kharkov, and later left in bits there...was it there? - "Umm, quite near Kharkov, yes..."

A crucial factor is whether or not the engine and gearbox are genuine - Mr Wright maintains that the engine turns over and has compression, "I've had plugs out and you can see the pistons" - but he will not run it and maintains it is now filled with a set-hard preservative foam, a new compound developed for the North Sea oil industry and not available to the general public.

None of the above offers conclusive proof either way - but it is intriguing as a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, wrapped in fantasy, and muddled with some elements of fact. The difficulty lies in identifying which is what...and whether or not one is being mean minded and unjustifiably cynical in harbouring doubts.

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Doug,

just as a comment to what you 've written. I think that's the special mystery the AU's are surrounded with. And everybody wishes, perhaps it's real, a true P-Wagen, impossible over 70 years, and here it is, built by Porsche, driven by Stuck, the body made by mechanic Voigt, Walb steering the car out of Zwickau, and so on.


And afterwards, if it's a fake, all our dreams are gone away and we are disappointed....aren't we. Would be a great moment to find a Typ A - like gold at the Clondike.....

That's what great stories are about......Doug, you know that....that's what journalists interests is made off.;)

[Brun]

BTW, filling an engine with foam to conserve it is the most peculiar thing I've ever heard (I try to refrain from using the arrogant tone of 'complete bollocks' here ;) ). I mean, the thing is made out of METAL. Just drain all the fluids, store the car in a dry garage or cellar with a more or less constant temperature and it'll stay in perfect condition throughout the years.

[Holger Merten]

Brun, the fake is going on..... NO, there is no chance for everything. The car in the the article looks great, but there are some problems. Bodywork, but the most important argument is for me the history compared with the bodywork.

[Hans Etzrodt]

A-Type... P-Wagen... My foot.
It is probably an entertaining yarn but let me raise my flag, which I did not have two years ago when I had posted here.

[Holger Merten]

Yes, Hans, raise the flag. It's not the flag of the start-finish-lane, isn't it?

[Doug Nye]

There's agreement here then - we're all of the same opinion.... ? Short of actually seeing inside that engine and gearbox...

[Ray Bell]

The jury's back?

Mr Wright's convicted with a unanimous vote? Set-hard preservative foam's been banned from use near historic vehicles?