nigel mansell 1x wdc.
nelson piquet 3x wdc.
you probably heard about them.
are they greats or merely very good drivers?
Were Mansell and Piquet great drivers, or merely good?
Started by
magic
, Jun 13 2001 07:10
17 replies to this topic
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#2
Marcel Schot
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Posted 13 June 2001 - 07:46
Depends on the definition of greatness ;)
But seriously, greatness isn't defined by the number of WDC's. I personally regard non champions Stirling Moss and Gilles Villeneuve higher than these two, but the achievements of both Piquet and Mansell in terms of competitiveness for a longer period of time in a field with Alain Prost, Niki Lauda and Ayrton Senna (just to name a few) are obviously to be admired.
In my book greatness is reserved for very few drivers, maybe 6 or 7 in GP history. Mansell and Piquet are not among those, but that's a matter of personal opinion. Reason? Difficult to say. I guess they didn't rise high enough above the rest high. Sure Mansell's 1992 season was the single most dominant in recent history, but I feel that's to a large extend due to the incredible difference between Williams and the other teams.
But seriously, greatness isn't defined by the number of WDC's. I personally regard non champions Stirling Moss and Gilles Villeneuve higher than these two, but the achievements of both Piquet and Mansell in terms of competitiveness for a longer period of time in a field with Alain Prost, Niki Lauda and Ayrton Senna (just to name a few) are obviously to be admired.
In my book greatness is reserved for very few drivers, maybe 6 or 7 in GP history. Mansell and Piquet are not among those, but that's a matter of personal opinion. Reason? Difficult to say. I guess they didn't rise high enough above the rest high. Sure Mansell's 1992 season was the single most dominant in recent history, but I feel that's to a large extend due to the incredible difference between Williams and the other teams.
#3
BRG
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Posted 13 June 2001 - 12:07
I agree completely with Marcel.
It is not to decry Nelson's or Nigel's achievements - both were top-class drivers and worthy WDCs. But they just don't seem to fit into the "greats" category for some reason. Nor does Mika Hakkinen today, despite his two WDCs.
There is some extra ingredient over and above GP wins and WDCs that turns the good into the great. I doubt if many would claim a status amongst the "greats" for Rosberg, Hunt or Scheckter, yet all were excellent drivers and champions. Yet most (or many) people view Moss and Villeneuve as "greats" despite never being WDC. Is it about charisma and personality as well as driving style and brilliance? Perhaps...
It is not to decry Nelson's or Nigel's achievements - both were top-class drivers and worthy WDCs. But they just don't seem to fit into the "greats" category for some reason. Nor does Mika Hakkinen today, despite his two WDCs.
There is some extra ingredient over and above GP wins and WDCs that turns the good into the great. I doubt if many would claim a status amongst the "greats" for Rosberg, Hunt or Scheckter, yet all were excellent drivers and champions. Yet most (or many) people view Moss and Villeneuve as "greats" despite never being WDC. Is it about charisma and personality as well as driving style and brilliance? Perhaps...
#4
LittleChris
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Posted 13 June 2001 - 12:32
I also agree.
In 92 Mansell had by far the dominant car and a largely subservient team mate in Patrese.
As far as Piquet is concerned, my feelings are:
81 - Should have been Jones' championship but for bad luck
83 - Too many rumours about the legality of the Brabham-BMW ( Remember the heavy wing at Monaco for one )
87 - Had a superior car/engine and was largely outclassed by Mansell ( Although I accept Nelson took a long time to recover from Imola ), who subsequently crashed at Suzuka, thereby handing the championship to Piquet.
I've always felt that Piquet was one of the least convincing champions of all for the reasons above.
In 92 Mansell had by far the dominant car and a largely subservient team mate in Patrese.
As far as Piquet is concerned, my feelings are:
81 - Should have been Jones' championship but for bad luck
83 - Too many rumours about the legality of the Brabham-BMW ( Remember the heavy wing at Monaco for one )
87 - Had a superior car/engine and was largely outclassed by Mansell ( Although I accept Nelson took a long time to recover from Imola ), who subsequently crashed at Suzuka, thereby handing the championship to Piquet.
I've always felt that Piquet was one of the least convincing champions of all for the reasons above.
#5
magic
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Posted 13 June 2001 - 14:00
'83 was prost's loss, piquet's gain.
#6
Barry Boor
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Posted 13 June 2001 - 20:33
May I respectfully endorse the views vouchedsafe by the honourable members above.
#7
Uncle Davy
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Posted 13 June 2001 - 20:54
"Some are born great; others have greatness thrust into them..."
...not sure where that one came from...might have been Oscar Wilde, or possibly Hugh Hefner...;)
Anyway...neither belong in the pantheon of the greats, IMO, but I have to admit that Nigel's driving style and histrionics had me rooting for him from his '84 Dallas USGP performance through his '93 CART championship...sort of a guilty pleasure. But then I'm easily entertained.
...not sure where that one came from...might have been Oscar Wilde, or possibly Hugh Hefner...;)
Anyway...neither belong in the pantheon of the greats, IMO, but I have to admit that Nigel's driving style and histrionics had me rooting for him from his '84 Dallas USGP performance through his '93 CART championship...sort of a guilty pleasure. But then I'm easily entertained.
#8
Leif Snellman
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Posted 14 June 2001 - 07:26
Originally posted by LittleChris
81 - Should have been Jones' championship but for bad luck
83 - Too many rumours about the legality of the Brabham-BMW ( Remember the heavy wing at Monaco for one )
87 - Had a superior car/engine and was largely outclassed by Mansell ( Although I accept Nelson took a long time to recover from Imola ), who subsequently crashed at Suzuka, thereby handing the championship to Piquet.
80 - Could have been champion if Jones hadn't crashed into him at the Canadan GP forcing him to use the spare car.
86 - The team forced him to do a unnecessary pitstop to check the tyres after Mansell's tyre had exploded. Would have been champion otherwise.
So I think that makes it even.
#9
LittleChris
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Posted 14 June 2001 - 12:46
Leif,
I thought the collision in Montreal 1980 was pretty well 50:50. Neither was prepared to back off. I have to say however that I feel this was Nelson most convincing year.
As for 1986, Mansell had the upper hand pretty well all year. It was only due to his tyre failure that Nelson came into real contention. How do we know that Nelson wouldn't have suffered the same fate if Patrick Head hadn't brought him in ?
Chris
I thought the collision in Montreal 1980 was pretty well 50:50. Neither was prepared to back off. I have to say however that I feel this was Nelson most convincing year.
As for 1986, Mansell had the upper hand pretty well all year. It was only due to his tyre failure that Nelson came into real contention. How do we know that Nelson wouldn't have suffered the same fate if Patrick Head hadn't brought him in ?
Chris
#10
bobbo
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Posted 14 June 2001 - 13:55
Nelson? Maybe.
Nigel? No.
Bobbo
Nigel? No.
Bobbo
#11
luisfelipetrigo
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Posted 14 June 2001 - 17:01
Just to add to what has been said by many of you ...
... this is quite a personal opinion/view/evaluation ...
Mine is exactly 180º from 'bobbo'
Mansell much closer ...
... but Nelson a definite no!
... this is quite a personal opinion/view/evaluation ...
Mine is exactly 180º from 'bobbo'
Mansell much closer ...
... but Nelson a definite no!
#12
bobbo
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Posted 14 June 2001 - 18:27
luisfelipetrigo:
This is EXACTLY what these forums are about!! Being entitled to an opinion and sharing it with someone!
Thanks abd blessings!!
Bobbo
This is EXACTLY what these forums are about!! Being entitled to an opinion and sharing it with someone!
Thanks abd blessings!!
Bobbo
#13
John B
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Posted 14 June 2001 - 18:27
Originally posted by Leif Snellman
80 - Could have been champion if Jones hadn't crashed into him at the Canadan GP forcing him to use the spare car.
86 - The team forced him to do a unnecessary pitstop to check the tyres after Mansell's tyre had exploded. Would have been champion otherwise.
So I think that makes it even.
Like Prost a bit....good fortune in 1986 and 1989 helped balance the losses in 1983 and 1984...
#14
CVAndrw
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Posted 19 June 2001 - 19:37
I won't comment on relative greatness, but:
1. "Il Leone" just won that weird British poll, ahead of Moss, Clark, etc. Make of it what you will.
2. Denis Jenkinson described Piquet as his all-time FAVORITE driver- not the fastest (Senna) but the funniest and best human being.
3. Rob Walker, Niki Lauda and Lee Gaug of Goodyear thought Piquet was the most intelligent with the best work ethic.
4. Piquet remains one of the few people on earth to utterly destroy Bernie Ecclestone in a financial negotiation (Williams contract 1986).
1. "Il Leone" just won that weird British poll, ahead of Moss, Clark, etc. Make of it what you will.
2. Denis Jenkinson described Piquet as his all-time FAVORITE driver- not the fastest (Senna) but the funniest and best human being.
3. Rob Walker, Niki Lauda and Lee Gaug of Goodyear thought Piquet was the most intelligent with the best work ethic.
4. Piquet remains one of the few people on earth to utterly destroy Bernie Ecclestone in a financial negotiation (Williams contract 1986).
#15
magic
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Posted 19 June 2001 - 21:44
CVAndrw
4. Piquet remains one of the few people on earth to utterly destroy Bernie Ecclestone in a financial negotiation (Williams contract 1986).
---------------
he was underpaid for 7 seasons and then jumped ship.
where is the destroying?
4. Piquet remains one of the few people on earth to utterly destroy Bernie Ecclestone in a financial negotiation (Williams contract 1986).
---------------
he was underpaid for 7 seasons and then jumped ship.
where is the destroying?
#16
ebe
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Posted 20 June 2001 - 07:31
Mansell:
A good racer, famous, very popular.
Stumbled over his own feet most often.
I cannot call him a 'great'
Piquet ?
For the reasons already mentioned here in this thread what happened in 81 and 83, at home we called him a 'legacyhunter'.
But he is more than that of course.
A good qualifier, natural talent (as NM had), much speed.
But still not a great.
A good racer, famous, very popular.
Stumbled over his own feet most often.
I cannot call him a 'great'
Piquet ?
For the reasons already mentioned here in this thread what happened in 81 and 83, at home we called him a 'legacyhunter'.
But he is more than that of course.
A good qualifier, natural talent (as NM had), much speed.
But still not a great.
#17
birdie
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Posted 20 June 2001 - 10:36
2. Denis Jenkinson described Piquet as his all-time FAVORITE driver- not the fastest (Senna) but the funniest and best human being.
I've always liked him for pretty much the reasons above. I agree with most of you, he's not one of the greats, but he seems such an interesting person.
#18
CVAndrw
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Posted 20 June 2001 - 23:25
Well, yeah, Nelson thought he'd been overworked and underpaid for seven years, too, and finally decided to do something about it. He, Lauda, Rosberg and Prost tried to form a cartel to insure they were all paid what they considered fair market value (this was not long after Lauda and Ron Dennis became lifelong enemies over Niki's success in prying $2 million out of Marlboro's pockets that Dennis thought should have gone into his and John Barnard's), but the whole cartel scheme fell apart because the first three couldn't quite agree on whether to believe anything Prost might say.
So Nelson had to go up against Bernie alone, and Bernie quite naturally assumed that nobody, least of all Frank Williams, had $3.5 million sitting around with Nelson's name on it, and that Nelson could just bloody well sit and rot until Christmas. Well, Frank might not have had the scratch, but the Honda Motor Company did, and come next year there was Bernie scatching his head wondering why Derek Warwick and Elio de Angelis were lying down in Gordon Murray's BT55 Kippercar staring at the ceiling and realizing just why Piquet had been laughing so hard when he told them just how much fun they were going to have trying to turn the steering wheel in the silly thing, let alone drive it.
OK, so just once to come out on top of Bernie in a negotiation, no matter how trivial the issue (with Bernie there are no small issues, anyway) may not be the defining moment in one's life, much less "utterly destroying" him, but in this context I believe there are no small victories.
So Nelson had to go up against Bernie alone, and Bernie quite naturally assumed that nobody, least of all Frank Williams, had $3.5 million sitting around with Nelson's name on it, and that Nelson could just bloody well sit and rot until Christmas. Well, Frank might not have had the scratch, but the Honda Motor Company did, and come next year there was Bernie scatching his head wondering why Derek Warwick and Elio de Angelis were lying down in Gordon Murray's BT55 Kippercar staring at the ceiling and realizing just why Piquet had been laughing so hard when he told them just how much fun they were going to have trying to turn the steering wheel in the silly thing, let alone drive it.
OK, so just once to come out on top of Bernie in a negotiation, no matter how trivial the issue (with Bernie there are no small issues, anyway) may not be the defining moment in one's life, much less "utterly destroying" him, but in this context I believe there are no small victories.
