20 replies to this topic

[Tech_Nut]

I've seen this topic come up regularly on other forums, (usually threads concerning the comparitive speeds of the 2 types of car). I haven't seen any threads on Atlas so far that cover it. So, can any of you factsters help me out here?

As far as I know, Indy and F1 cars haven't raced on the same circuit in the same season for a looooong time. I think you have to go back to the late 70's or something, when F1 was still using Watkins Glen for the US GP. Also maybe Longbeach has hosted both series in the same season. Not sure. And I haven't forgot the one Indy car race that was hosted here at Brands Hatch, but I don't know if the GP was held at Brands on that year. If the 2 series DID ever race on the same track in the same season, anyone know what the difference in lap times was/were?

Anyway this brings me on nicely to Indianapolis, the new location for the US GP and a question as to whether this particular circuit (the GP course, not the oval) will ever be raced on by either CART or IRL cars? For anyone, like me, who's interested in comparing the relative speed of the 2 types of car, the Indy GP circuit is absolutely perfect, combining as it does both oval and road course sections. Comparing the lap times, cornering speeds and top speeds of the cars would be absolutely fascinating.

But given the odd political situation surrounding Indy, I guess it will never happen.

TN

[LittleChris]

Tech-Nut,

The year at Brands when both ran was 1978. The difference was that F1 used the full circuit and USAC used the short circuit which was then renamed the Indy circuit for obvious reasons. I know that Ronnie Peterson qualified on pole for the GP but can't remember the time ( about 1 min 9 or 10 I'd guess ). I think Danny Ongais had pole for the USAC boys and was lapping in the mid 30 second range during the race. Sadly there's no way to compare the two.

The same year both series raced at Silverstone, F1 for the International Trophy ( won by Keke Rosberg in the Theodore after all the top boys fell off the road - Poleman Ronnie on the warm up lap if I recall rightly and Niki Lauda shortly after) and USAC, I think the week before Brands. Race conditions for both series were appalling, especially the F1 boys. A possible way to compare would be practice times and I have a feeling that USAC may have been quicker in terms of pole , but you'd have to check it out somewhere.

Chris

[BRG]

The nearest that I can think of is when CART took over both Long Beach and Detroit from F1, but in both cases that was in the following season. I reckon Silverstone in 1978 was the last time Indycars and F1 ran on the same track in the same year. But as the weather was dire for both events (I was at both and it was 'orrible) it isn't mich of a comparison. In those days, the Indycars didn't run in the wet very much (if at all?) - indeed, I seem to remember that the Silverstone event wasn't a proper race in the end because of the weather, although I remember AJ Foyt and a few others taking to the circuit more to please the fans than anything. But the Brands event the following weekend was excellent. Before then I was very dismissive of the roundy-round oval racers, but I learnt a lot about them in that visit - about thier far better attitiude towards the paying fans and about the skill needed to drive a car that powerful (this was before the F1 turbo era, remember) on a circuit like Brands Hatch. I have followed CART with respect and interest ever since.

[Dave Ware]

I understand that CART will race at Montreal next year. Should be interesting.

No chance of CART racing on the Indy road course. Tony George would never allow that. Not sure CART would want to, either.

Long Beach didn't host CART until they dropped F1. I believe they got tired of lining Bernie's pockets. And yes, the circuit does seem to change pretty frequently.

[dbltop]

ive read somewhere that circuit g villeneuve(monteal) is going to be modified for the cart race. it seems that both f1 and cart are concerned about unfavourable comparisons!

[ray b]

prewar gp cars ran indy won in 40-41 with a maser
jack b ran a f-1 car in 62 at indy placed 7 or 8 with 2.7 4cyl
irl run ovals only
mo-town or L A only in usa not sure if same track layout
what about canadian tracks?
i wish F-1 would run indy oval

[Skouse]

I had heard also that both series' will race at Montreal next year with a modification to the track. I hope both will race on the same circuit as this will prove once and for all that CART cannot compete with F1. Top speeds in CART are considerable, yes, but with the length of the straights on some Ovals they race on coupled with the reduced downforce on the cars during these races a fair comparison can't happen until Montreal, Hopefully. F1 cars will corner much faster IMO and CART's, from what I've heard, are much heavier. I just can't see a CART getting within 5-8 secs/lap close to an F1. Also the last time they raced together Jimmy Clark clobbered them in a lotus at Indy, I think. cheers.

[Mike Argetsinger]

CART raced at Watkins Glen in 1979, 80, and 81. The United States Grand Prix (F-1) ran consecutively at Watkins Glen from 1961 to and including 1980.

However the two years ('79 and '80) that both races ran - CART used the short course (the course now used by NASCAR - the only change being the "inner-loop" which was added in 1992). The '79 Watkins Glen race being the first ever CART race on a road circuit.

The last CART race at Watkins Glen in 1981 used the full circuit and was run on the traditional date previously occupied by the Grand Prix (the first weekend in October). This would have made a reasonable comparison from the previous year's GP except for the fact that the 1981 race was run in cold and rainy conditions. Mario Andretti won pole on rain tires at 104.653 mph (Bruno Giacomelli had pole for the '80 GP at 130.135). Rick Mears won the race at 108.273 (Alan Jones won the previous year's GP at 126.37).

F-5000 and Can-Am comparisons with Formula 1 GP cars make a more interesting comparison.

In 1969 and 1970 - the last two years of the 2.3 mile circuit (the 1971 renovation lengthened the full circuit to 3.377 miles and created the "short circuit" - discussed above -of 2.428 miles. This short circuit incidentally is essentially the original 2.3 mile circuit with the changes being the move of the pits and start/finish line - the 90 degree right hander which had been the last turn became the first turn - and what had been a flat out left sweeper followed by a quite fast right hander - big bend - became a more abrupt left and right - which are the turns now leading on to the s/f pit straight - all of this meant that the "new" short course was slower than the old 2.3 mile course) races were run for the Can Am series and, of course the USGP (F-1).

Both years the Can Am qualifier was slightly faster than the GP - but in both cases the GP was won at a faster speed. This reflected the greater depth - and hence competitiveness of the race - in the Grand Prix. In the '69 CanAm Bruce McLaren won the pole and race at 133.092 and 125.99 respectively - while the '69 GP pole and race were won by Jochen Rindt at 130.15 and 126.36 respectively. In '70 it was Denny Hulme qualifying at 132.06 mph and winning at 118.56 while in the GP it was Jacky Ickx on pole at 131.28 and Emerson Fittipldi winning at 126.79.

F-5000 debuted at Watkins Glen in 1972 (remember now - by this time we are on the present 3.377 mile circuit) and ran through 1976 (before developing full bodies for '77 and becoming the new Can-Am). F-5000 compared increasingly well with GP cars.

In '72 John Cannon qualified at 115.563 to Jackie Stewart in the GP at 119.610 (CanAm saw Peter Revson at 122.565).

In '73 F5000 fast qualifier Jody Scheckter was at 120.095 to Ronnie Peterson in the GP at 121.990 (CanAm was Mark Donohue 122.989.

'74 Mario Andretti had F-5000 pole at 120.95 with GP pole man Carlos Reutemann at 122.83 (CanAm pole was George Follmer at 121.61).

'75 is a poor comparison because the infamous "Scheckter chicane" was put in place in September just before the GP (thankfully this emasculating - and crash-inducing - device was removed in 1983).
Therefore the F-5000 pole by Brian Redman of 123.65 was significantly faster than Niki Lauda's GP pole of 119.18. (Can-Am had disappeared).

'76 it was Redman again on pole in F5000 with 118.61 and James Hunt on pole for the GP at 117.32.

USAC Champ cars (the CART cars of the time) by and large did not run on road courses but would not have been as fast as F5000 cars if they did. The U.S. F5000 Championship was a joint sanction of the SCCA and USAC in 1974,75, and '76 and was contested by teams from both groups. It was a great era and the high point in this country for F5000. It was also the high point in professionalism for SCCA and USAC. In 1977 an airplane crash killed 7 top people in the USAC cadre. It virtually wiped out the entire top group of race officials and the loss of professionalism was telling. This blow was devastating to the body and it never really recovered. It opened the door for CART to take over the top level of U.S. single seater racing (although they never got to sanction the Indianapolis 500).

Getting back to Watkins Glen it is interesting to note that Davy Jones lapped the 2.45 mile short course (or NASCAR Course if you prefer) at 150.335 mph in 1992 - with the inner loop in place! - in qualifying for the IMSA Camel GTP in a Jaguar XJ4-14. This record still stands. Considering that the 2.45 mile course is substantially slower than the 2.3 mile circuit it is superimposed on -it is interesting to speculate at what speed today's F-1 cars would lap the circuit that was used from 1961 to 1970. (Actually from 1956 but the first USGP was in '61).

So there you go. A whole lot more than you ever wanted to know about comparative lap speeds!

[dbltop]

since f1 cars now have carbon fiber brakes,cart doesn't stand a chance of coming close in a lap time,but i think they will match top speeds on the straight.

[Keir]

Get your seats now for the hairpin turn, you will never see a racecar go as slowly as a CART car!! Can you spell "turbo lag"?????

[ray b]

canadian gp in 67 at mosport clark lotus 122.4 q time
123.1 fastest race lap
can-am cars d gurney lola 123.1 as track record lap,?
indy's cars frist road race under USAC bobby unser won
in a indy eagle-ford in a two heat format at mosport.
no times given in 11-67 R&T MAG for laps.
same track layout??
indy cars times??
was the indy eagle a gp car or what??

[Yelnats]

I attended a Mosport CAN-AM race in 1966 that featured the first test of a USAC car on a road course. This test was driven by Mario Andretti in an offset chassis rear engined Oval Track racer and was run in the wrong direction to balance the car. This resulted in Mario arriving at a the 30mph Mosses corner at the bottom of a 3/4 mile hill travelling at over 200 mph!!

Not a job for the faint of heart but very entertaining with Mario getting a lot of wheelspin out of the wrong-way corners (right turns) all three of which were highspeed.

I recall a compairison between USAC and F1 made for the St.Jovite Quebec track where the F1 races were run several times. The F1's were 4 secs faster than the USAC cars in the early seventies. The F1 times were from a fews years earlier and had improved several seconds a lap by that time the comparison was made.

[Gerr]

Ray B, Gurneys pole speed 6/14/68 at Mosport was 1:21.55 at 110.362 mph....the track was the same layout. I'll have to dig for the '67 results.

St.Jovite/Mt.Tremblant in 1968:
F1 pole: Rindt,Brabham-Repco 1:33.8....9/22/68
USAC pole: Andretti,Brawner-Ford 1:35.7....8/4/68
The F1 cars had wings at this time,USAC did not.

Yelnats,Mario had won the USAC road course event at the IRP road course in '65,so not exactly the first test,but I am curious about the car. Mario's "Dean Van Lines"Brawner was not offset. For a short time Al Dean owned a Lotus 38 that was offset,could this be the car you saw? Or could the car have been the REV500 #98 Shrike that also did a demo at Westwood BC in 1966 with Rodger Ward? The Dean car would have been #1.

P.S.I have driven Mosport in a full size Ford Wagon(a tow car)at
night(sort of a Midnight Molson/Madness Mechanic Match race).....downhill into Moss.....it was......very sobering!

[Yelnats]

Sorry I can't be more specific and even the year is an estimate. All I can be certain about is that it was a test with a USAC racer and was run in the opposite direction by Mario at Mosport. It was announced as a test before USAC began to participate on road courses but I can't even recall the car's colour.

I do recall that the first race I saw at Mosport featured a Lotus 23b driven by Stirling Moss that lapped at 1:35 and the last F1 race in the mid seventies was lapped a 1:13. Can-Am and F1 cars routinely broke each others lap records in the sixties and seventies.

[ray b]

mid summer to early fall track temps in 68 could be most of 2 sec
diff in f-1 vs indy times if not more as indy had hot track temp.
unless weather was strange that year.

[mhferrari]

Well they will in Montreal next year.

[Keir]

Did anyone see the CART race at Portland??
Did I say "race"??? I meant the "full course caution" parade of incompetence.

Next time some wag compares CART to F1, put the video of this years' Portland parade on the tube and try not to laugh!!!

Let's leave the comparisions to apples and oranges. CART can never be anything other than someone's idea of a contrived race series.

F1 RULES!!!

[ray b]

yes that was something to watch, rain and turbos don't mix very well do they.

[jpf]

Hey everyone- I'm usually over in the technical forum but I was poking around in here. I started a thread over there with the interest of comparing F1 with LMP cars, but a guy named MattPete came up with an interesting comparison of F1 and CART using ALMS as a common standard. He came up with F1 lap times that appeared to be just a few percent shorter than CART. By no means definitive, but still food for thought. In any event, it's based on logical interpretation of hard numbers so that gives it some weight.

Have a look:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=23814

[Yves]

Could somebody give the time improvement year after year of CART best times for one same track ? With same technical rules of course !
In the sixteens, the old front engine CART-Indy cars were totally out of age compared to the european rear engined F1 and this has been demonstrated with Jimmy, Gurney and other G. Hill coming to Indy.
But with the Ford and monocoque chassis generation if it was not equality, it was much balnced.
I think that the F1 continue to permanently enhance cars and performance in an average of 2 secondes per year, despite the reglementation and other chicanes trying to slow down the cars.
CART and Indy regulations looks to be more stables and budgets significantly slower.

Y.

[Yelnats]

Yeves. The speeds at Indy skyrocketed after the introduction of rear engines but this coincided with wings and slicks the the contribution of RE technology would be drowned by these technologies. In a single year improvements in lap speeds of around 10mph were recorded during this period. Before these technologies speeds at Indy only increased by about 1 mph per year and the 150 Mph lap was somewhat of a barrier in the fifties.

This is all from memory and I'm sure some industrious chap will look up the exact data for this era.