121 replies to this topic

[Bruce]

Recently, in various threads, I have read lots about how badly JV drove in 1997, and I have found myself generally agreeing. But I have begun to think that the criticisms of his 97 season stem from 2 factors; 1) JV fans expected more based on the success of the 96 Williams, and 2) MS fans, disappointed by the terrible manner in which the season ended, vented their anger not only at MS but also at the guy who helped precipitate the event, JV.

Not only that but I think that many felt that JV was getting the "silver spoon" treatment - getting an excellent car too early in his career, or that he simply didn't deserve to be in such a car...

I may be wrong in those assertions, but it doesn't alter the fact that I believe that JV is too frequently criticised for what was, after all, a well won WDC.

Well won? How can I say that?

Well the main criticisms I have read of JV in '97 were that;

a) He was "gifted" some of his wins that year.

b) He had some terrible performances.

c) He failed to utilize the car to it's utmost.

In general I havn't argued with these sentiments in the past, because they all have elements of truth to them. However, a good look at the season reveals several interesting points. On the one hand, yes, he was gifted some of his wins, Notably at the Nurburgring (where MH and DC fell out ahead of him) and Hungary, where DH's car slowed in the final laps. But, how can you criticise JV for this? The criticism assumes that he should have been in front anyway, but thats simply ridiculous - was he supposed to lead every single race? Michael Schumacher was gifted a win that same year at Canada, and I don't hear anybody criticising him for that...

As to b) - yes he did have some poor performances - notably at Hockenheim, Canada and a lacklustre Spa and Monza. Hockenheim and Canada saw him making unforced errors, and Monza and Spa saw him put in uninspired races. (I have left out Monaco as the choice to start on dries was apparently a team decision - MS wouldn't have accepted it, but it is safe to say that with his experience, MS had more sway with Ferrari than JV had with Williams). At any rate, yes he made mistakes. But remember, JV at the time was only in his second season... he was racing his 17th to 33rd F1 race. In the same year, his main competition, MS, was racing his 85th to 102nd races... with 2 WDC under his belt to boot. Who was likely to make more mistakes or to wilt under pressure? On the whole, I think that JV's record in 1997 compares favourably with MS's - MS made the odd unforced error (notably in Argentina) and had the odd uninspiring race like Hungary (qualifying on pole but finishing only 4th) and Monza (qualifying 9th and finishing 6th).

In one sense, I think that the Ferrari was in that sense a bonus of sorts for MS - the same way the BAR was for JV in 2000... a shoddy perfomance was blamed on the car - a good performance was credited to the driver - JV on the other hand had nowhere to hide, being that he was presumed to be in not only the best car, but supposedly the best car by a mile.

Which brings us to the last - he didn't get the best from his car... a hard one to quantify, but let us presume it is true. Even if it is the case, how badly did HHF do that year then? How about MS? was 9th on the grid in Monza the best he could get out of the car? EI was a mere 2/10ths behind him and I think MS is a bit faster than that.... I would agree that MS used the Ferrari more to it's true level of performance, but given his experience and talent, was this not to be expected?

Finally, the record shows that JV won 7 races from 17. If he was handed some, he had others taken from him - Australia, being crashed out by Irvine, Imola - having mechanical failure which cost him the lead and the race, Japan - where he was never going to be racing for a win given the circumstances - Jerez - where he apparently was asked to give the McLarens a bone... Regardless, only four drivers have scored more wins in a season than JV - Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Nigel Mansell and Mika Hakkinen. He is tied with Jim Clark and Alain Prost at 7.

He beat his most important competitor decisively. Remember, many thought that HHF would be showing JV the way before the 1997 season. In the end, JV won 7 races to HHF's 1, Outqualified him 13 to 4 and had 10 poles to HHF's one.

I don't see how it can be argued that it was a poor season for Villeneuve. Could he have done better? Probably, but not likely by a whole lot.

I'll be interested to see you opinions.

[JuanF1]

My opinion is: he won the WC. Then he must be somehow special, otherwise he would have made a "Frentzen", wouldn't he? At the same time he had the best car, something you need to have if you want to be a potential winner. So, IMHO, he did well enough to secure enough points to win the championship.

[Boston Killer]

I remember reading one Rissian auto sport magazine which staff considered ONLY of Michael fans.They went out of business,btw.It is hard to be a fan of a German person in Russia...
Anyway, after the Jerez they wrote that "The driver who become champion was never supposed to"

Mostly it's "the insane" part of MS fans against the common sense.

JV did deserve the WDC since he was simply the better of two competing drivers at the moment.
Weather this would repeat now I'm not sure.
Michael really improved.
So did his car, which still remains the best for the last 7 years (including HIS Benettons)

[RedFever]

He had a great season and deserved to win the WDC. We all know JV is not the fastest guy in F1, but he is good, determined and one of the toughest guys out there.

Mentioning his 3-4 luckluster races in the season is nonsense. Schumi last year got involved in two start crashes and allowed Mika, albeit with a faster car, to surprise him in Spa.

Mika made two rookie mistakes in 99 that almost cost him the title, Imola and Monza, while leading in complete solitude. Yet, he deserved to win the title.

As the great Gilles Villeneuve used to say "if you don't have two major shunts in a season, it means you are not pushing to the limit". Every top driver makes 2-3 mistakes a season, it's pretty standard. Senna did, Schumacher did, Prost did. JV is no excpetion, he though had an overall excellent season and deserved the title. Let's not forget he outraced Damon Hill in his very first GP and almost won, that must say something about his abilities.

[Lexiz]

I think that his first two seasons were very impressive for a rookie. To see him in an upper level car now would be quite entertaining I suppose. I think having played both ends of the field, he is a much more mature driver and can be expected to have a little more intelligence.

I think he def. deserved his WC. It does not matter if his car was better, didn't hak/schu both have superior cars over the field? I guess thats what it takes to win these days.

[BARnone]

Bruce -

Just to add something to your research - Villeneuve himself says that he feels he is a much better driver now than he was in 1997.

Personally, I think he AND Williams deserved the WDC in 1997 - although Villeneuve made things more difficult for himself than they needed to be (outspoken against FIA changes, ignoring yellow flags etc).

BARnone.

[Math Soucy]

The criticisms will continue ad infinitum, but the only significance that will endure is that JV joins that lofty master's list of World Champions.

[davy boy]

You should ask the question "If Damon Hill had stayed at Williams in 1997 do you think JV would still be a WDC??"

[BARnone]

Davy Boy:

Yes, I still think Villeneuve would have been WDC. He very nearly beat Hill in 96.

BARnone.

[John B]

That season was perhaps the wildest, as far as little things happening every weekend that affected the points race, that I remember. JV did get a break at the beginning of the year when he won Brazil after going off at the first corner, but the race was redflagged so he restarted from pole, then when Schumacher was involved in a start crash in Argentina the safety car came out leaving him out of the race.

Some mention the Silverstone win as lucky, requiring MS and MH to fall out of the lead, but it was a bungled pit stop that put JV out of the lead and behind the others in the first place.

Towards the end of the year I thought he might have lost his grip on the title, but they responded strongly towards the end from Austria onwards, with the last two race results being screwed up by the yellow flag ban and the Jerez antics.

Overall, a strange career dyamic - 10 wins and WDC in the first two years, then struggling in non-winning equipment for 3+ years.



PS as far as Hill vs JV at Williams in 1997, there would be a difference in motivation, with Hill having just won the title and JV looking to get his. Perhaps a stronger teammate would have improved JV's performance in 1997?

[Yelnats]

There have been numerous criticisims of JV championship year as he apparently was expected to win by a vast margin in a totally superior car as DH had done in 96. But I believe that Jacques did not enjoy as much car superiority as many assumed and had to drive harder for his wins which resulted in more errors and a lower winning percentage.

This is evidenced by the depth of the field in 97 which had 5 different winning drivers whereas 96 was strictly Williams and Ferrari (which owed no little credit to MS's phemomonal skills) ignoring Panis's gifted win at Monaco in 96. In 1997 Damon's car was good enough that everyone knew within a few races that a Williams driver would win. This was not the case in 97 when JV's formerly highly competative team-mate HHF was mired in the pack for much of the season, a further indication that driving a Williams wasn't the cakewalk that it was in 96.

As to Jacques giving the win away in Jerez 97, it was not as simple as it seems either. Anyone willing to take the time should review the final laps of that race and would see that on the the cool-down lap Jacques steering wheel was violently shaking and his tires were an absolute mess. If jacques had continued to fight to keep the lead under those conditions he would have be very foolish with the title in the bag whereas earlier in the season this would probably have been another win for Jacques.

[AcidIce]

It's so easy to critize Jacques' 97 season, but it means forgetting how fast he was in 1996, against a driver who's been praised a lot of times, Damon Hill. In 1997 he outperformed HHF, who's also regarded as an excellent driver, even more after the 1999 season.

So, hell, JV is an excellent driver, faster than most F1 drivers, and he deserved the WDC. A WDC isn't deserved though, it's won. And Jacques won it.

[Todd]

I guess this season is too fresh in everyone's memory to pretend that Jacques isn't driving like a 2nd rater. The only avenue left it to try selling the idea that he wasn't borderline worthless in 1997. The funny thing is that in 1997 we were all sad that he was failing miserably to deliver on the promise he showed in 1996.

There is one thing I have in common with Jacques. His level of respect for Jacques Villeneuve fans:

On 2001-06-13 05:06, foster wrote at DailyF1:
After bragging all last week that I had reservations at Newtown on Friday night, someone asked me to review my meal here on the board. Well, here it is.
Friday was warm in Montreal, and Crescent St. on Friday night was even warmer. Me and Cindy fought our way through the crowds, 30 minutes early. Who would we see there? Julia Roberts? She was in town as Jacques' guest. So was Nicolas Cage. So were several other stars. Maybe we'd run into Jacques His Royal Self?
And what would we eat? We planned to pull out all the stops -- money would be no object. And after supper, perhaps drinks in Jacques' bar and dancing in his lounge?
Our excitement verged on giddiness.
I'd seen his menu, and it was extraordinary. Perhaps we'd mix and match -- I'd go for meat, Cindy for fish. And a nice Merlot for me and something in a white wine for my lady friend, garcon! (Or as Homer Simpson puts it so eloquently: "A bottle of your second least expensive wine, my good man!")
I'd planned to start with shrimp salad with Champagne vinegar sauce, then maybe move on to the Newtown filet with gratin dauphinois potatoes and sweet corn flan.
Perhaps Cindy would whet her appetite with the seared foie gras, with sweet corn cake cooked with an apple juice reduction, moving on to the sauteed Dover sole with asparagus, pine nuts, tomatoes and poached potatoes.
And what of desert? Maybe some crepes with pastry cream and Grand Marnier sauce for me, and maybe a beggar's purse of goat cheese and dry fruits for my favourite woman on the planet.
We decided to enter, even though we were still well ahead of our reservation time.
A big goon met us at the dining room door, which is on the second floor.
"I have reservations for 6:30," I said. "The name's Foster."
The big goon begged to differ.
"No, you don't have reservations," he said.
"Uh, yes I do," I insisted.
"No, you don't. Come back Sunday," he said.
I informed the good chap that I had taken the trouble to make reservations, drive 1,000 km, get all dressed up like a flippin' pimp, and now I wanted something to eat. He was unmoved.
"Come back Sunday."
"So, if you won't let me in tonight, why did the guy on the phone take my reservations," I demanded.
"Come back Sunday," he repeated.
So there you have it, folks: my exciting and wonderful visit to Newtown.
A word of advice. Don't bother making reservations. Just come back Sunday.
FOSTER
P.S. No, we didn't go back on Sunday. F#uck Jacques and restaurant. But it didn't matter. According the Montreal Gazette, Newtown's dining room was closed again on Sunday so Jacques could entertain his friends. And something tells me I'm not one of his friends.

[Rene]

Bruce, good post, I guess you noticed what I have been arguing in several threads. That is that many of the anti-jv posters simply have a party line that the '97 Williams was an Uber car, with some people claiming it was 2 seconds a lap faster than everyone else...I posted 7 qualifiing times from that season (got to lazy to go through more to make a point) showing that not only was the '97 Williams not the Uber car, on some tracks it wasn't even the best car.

Lets all remember that the 1997 Williams was essentially the 1996 Williams....so in fairness, the 1996 Williams was really the Uber car, as we saw with both JV and DH competeing for the title. The 1997 car was certainly not the best car by the end of the season. JV drove very well in 1997, and deserved the championship, just as MS deserved it last year, and as I think he deserves it this year.

[ehagar]

I question the assumed superiority of the 97 Williams.

In the beginning (Melbourne) it was indeed superior. Jacques had the pole by two seconds over his nearest rival. Ferrari simply wasn't competitive enough. But as was seen over 97,98,99... Ferrari soon caught up to a competitive level. Jacques got T-boned in Melbourne by Eddie Irvine, saving the field from getting blitzed.

I'm not sure about this, but wasn't the 97 car the last Newey penned car. After Melbourne all the modifications were by someone else.

Jacques made a few mistakes but I seem to recall a few chinks in Williams armor too. Especially when it came to fielding two reliable cars.

There was a period in the mid-season though, where I thought there was something wrong with him. I commented, 'Are you on drugs or something?!?' He was rather eratic around Canada & France.

[BARnone]

Todd:

Are we going to have another rehash of how Villeneuve was a spoiled brat in boarding school too????

BARnone.

[Rene]

Qual times from Austalia 1997

Villeneuve (Williams) 1m 29.369s
Frentzen (Williams) 1m 31.123s

Not quite 2 seconds

hehe but close....for the rest of the season things changed quite a bit...

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Rene
Qual times from Austalia 1997

Villeneuve (Williams) 1m 29.369s
Frentzen (Williams) 1m 31.123s

Not quite 2 seconds

Good enough for government work

[Nikolas Garth]

Here is the qualifying comparison between JV and MS for 97.

The margin one outqualified the other by, is under their name.

_____________JV______MS
Melbourne____2.103
Brazil________0.590
Argentina_____1.300
Imola________0.652
Monaco______________0.329
Spain________1.788
Canada______________0.013
France_______________0.252
Silverstone____0.379
Hockenheim__________0.786
Hungary_____________0.187
Spa__________0.843
Monza________0.411
Austria_______0.752
Nurburgring___0.694
Suzuka_______0.062
Jerez_________0_______0


Both Williams were ahead of Schumacher on the grid in the following races:

Melbourne
Argentina
Imola
Barcelona
Silverstone
Monza
A1
Nurburgring

10 Poles for Villeneuve, 3 for Schumacher
11 Poles for Williams, 3 for Ferrari.



Here are the grid positions for HHF and Irvine in 97.

_____________HHF______EI
Melbourne_____2________5
Brazil_________8________14
Argentina______2________7
Imola_________2________9
Monaco_______1________15
Spain_________2_______11
Canada________4_______12
France________2________5
Silverstone_____2_______7
Hockenheim____5_______10
Hungary_______6_______5
Spa___________7_______17
Monza_________2_______10
Austria________4_______8
Nurburgring____3_______14
Suzuka________6_______3
Jerez__________3_______7


Eddie Irvine never once qualified ahead of Villeneuve in 97.
Eddie only qualified ahead of HHF, on two occasions in 97.
Thus in 15 of the 17 races, both Williams drivers were ahead of Eddie Irvine.

In 2000, Eddie Irvine(Jaguar) outqualified JV(BAR HONDA), 10 times out of 17. In 1997, not once.

[Todd]

Nikolas,

I appreciate the naive sincerity of your effort. I doubt the effectiveness of any attempt to bring JV's mediocrity to the attention of his fans. Try to remember for next time. The '97 Williams was just okay. Zonta had the same equipment as Jacques. The BARs are the worst cars to ever make an F1 grid. Panis is a Mika killer. Jacques never brake tests other drivers. It is okay when he crashes into other cars, because he is trying so hard to make up for the lousy BAR-Hondas. It is also okay when he strangles other drivers, treats his fans and would-be patrons with no consideration, and when he blocks other drivers in qualifying. So what if he really grew up in Monaco. He is Canadian, damn it!

[KinetiK]

Todd, please for God's sake take your head out of your ass and look at the facts from 96 and 97. JV nearly outdrove a seasoned F1 vet in Hill in 96 as an F1 rookie. This is a comparison of TWO drivers in the same goddamn car ok? JV had the best car at the start of the season in 97 but as others have pointed out this car was on a downhill slide the whole season.

Todd, when you get into an argument and you get cornered with facts and stats that show you to be wrong, you immediately start with personal attacks. Just put up or shut up.

[Nikolas Garth]

Todd,
I am still undecided about JV's relative merits in a way.

I wonder if he was back at a top team who could help him out with his setups a bit more, if he would be more competitive???

Anyway, whilst it is true that the Williams was better at the start of the year, than at the end of it, for those who want to insist that over the course of the year the Williams didn't have a significant advantage over Ferrari, must not give a flying @#$% about their credibility, or have no ability to comprehend.

[Todd]

Originally posted by KinetiK
Todd, when you get into an argument and you get cornered with facts and stats that show you to be wrong, you immediately start with personal attacks. Just put up or shut up.

Did this happen? With my head up my ass, I must have missed it.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by Todd
Did this happen? With my head up my ass, I must have missed it

Apparently so.

[berge]

Villeneuve, overrated. arrogant. big mouth. Left Williams for what, a brand new team run by a ski coach. Is he on drugs? Me thinks he overestimates his own abilities. Verstappen, Fisichella, Trulli, would destroy him if they were his teammates. Villeneuve fans are worse than Montoya and Michael Schumacher fans combined. Talk about blind allegiance. Oh, and about HHF in 97, I have never seen a racing driver have worse luck than he did that year. Unreliable car, bad luck, huge pressure + Patrick Head. That's what happened to HHF in 97.
Now we see the true Villeneuve. Barely beating Panis. Cracking under pressure. Sending out his ski coach with a "he's not performing because he hurt his back" BooHoo.

[JayWay]

I think we see the true Todd, jump to stupid conclusions just to fill in his interior motives. JV is great with fans, both from others stories and my own personal history. After his press conference at Newtown on Thursday he spent nearly a full hour signing autographs for the fans outside. This is inconsiderate? Please Todd, just shutup.

[Manson]

It's common knowledge the Williams team wouldn't let Jacques experiment with his own set-up ideas in 96 until the second half of the season. Surprise, he makes a run at the title making MS look asleep with that awesome pass on the outside at Estoril.
Come 97, he still has the best car, a year's experience and the confidence of the team. He wins the title. Fully deserved.

Now in 2001, he's struggling, but the grids are much more competitive and he certainly does not have the best car. That's F1. There's a lot more going on behind the statistics than meets the eye. Just be glad the guy is out there adding some color to the series. I wouldn't even watch if it was a MS lovefest every time out.

[Manson]

Originally posted by berge
Me thinks he overestimates his own abilities

CART rookie of the year - 1994
CART Champion and Indy 500 Winner - 1995
F1 Rookie of the Year - 1996 (2nd in championship)
F1 WDC - 1997

I would feel pretty good about my abilities with those credentials.

[Hi Test]

I informed the good chap that I had taken the trouble to make reservations, drive 1,000 km, get all dressed up like a flippin' pimp, and now I wanted something to eat. He was unmoved.

I guess the Michael Schumacher cap didn't help the situation.;)

[Bruce]

berge - I seem to remember everybody saying that Frentzen would kill him too... didn't happen though. Yeah, JV isn't having a great year so far, but then he may or may not be racing injured. I still think that he'll ante it up in the second half. You're free to come back and mock when and if he doesn't, though why you would feel the need to is beyond me.

Todd - a disgruntled patron of JV's restaurant is proof of his lousy driving - how? If JV were as mediocre as you infer, then it is passing curious that MS couldn't win the title in 1997, isn't it?

No, I can't really believe that even you think that JV truly had an awful season in 1997. You simply don't win 7 races and get 10 poles if you are medicore as you suggest he is - even if he was in some sort of evil uber-car that crushed everything before it...

A quick example as I have limited time - The 92 and 93 Williams were more dominant by far than the 97 Williams (Proof? On 4 seperate occasions, NM outqualified AS by over 2 seconds, and generally qualified between .75 to 1.5 seconds ahead...) and yet NM won 9 races and AP won 7 races despite all of his vast experience and having the fastest car on the track.

I would agree with you if you stated that MS had the more effective year in 1997, and that he got more out of his car than JV, but that doesn't mean that he deserevd to be WDC (if it did than GV and Moss would have been champions many times over) and neither does the fact that JV may have been less effective than MS mean that he is mediocre, that he had a terrible year or that he didn't deserve the WDC.

Lastly, if the Williams was the better car - who cares? MS could have chosen to be on the Williams team and they probably would have taken him on. Saying he was robbed of the WDC by non drivers in a Newey car is just silly. Nobody held MS's head under water and forced him to go to Ferrari. If the 97 Ferrari was slightly slower, should we blame JV and say he had a crappy season?

[Ross Stonefeld]

He was responsible for Jerez

[Manson]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
He was responsible for Jerez

Surely your joking? Unless you mean MS of course.

[Bruce]

Do you mean JV Ross???

Yeah you're right... JV jumped out of the car and grabbed MS's steering wheel and forced him tohit the Williams.

MS turned into JV - the oft heard argument that JV was going way too fast and would have flown off the track is hilarious - if it is true, than MS should have waved him by and continued on his merry way while JV drove through the kitty litter... but he turned in on him. How is this JV's fault? And if it is JV's faultthen no driver should attempt a pass in F1 - after all, if the driver in front decided to turn in on you it's your own fault....

Please explain exactly how the blame for MS trning in on JV at Jerez can be described as JV's fault.

I apologise if I misunderstood and you were referring to MS....

[Ross Stonefeld]

no I mean jV

having watched last year's attempt on HHF at Indy and Irvine(?) at Austria im now of the angle that JV got desperate and threw it down the inside and if anything MS taking his normal line into the corner prevented JV from overshooting into the gravel

[JayWay]

Ofocurse he threw it down the inside. But how does that put blame on JV for MS turning in? Late braking is a common occurance, you don't see the countering driver turning into the other. And take into consideration that MS had turned in, decided against it, then turned in again and made contact as JV whizzed by.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Im just saying I think MS took his normal line and then JV drove into the side of him

[Manson]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld

if anything MS taking his normal line into the corner prevented JV from overshooting into the gravel

I watched the race again with this in mind, MS actually keeping JV on the racetrack but the arguement is pure rubbish. No offense Ross, but not a chance. You must be reading too many of Todd's postings, take a break man!

[JayWay]

"and then JV drove into the side of him"

Ok I think this part of the discussion is over. Go to sleep Ross, its wise not to post after heavy drinking.

[Smooth]

Dear JV:

You won the 1997 title againt next to no quality opposition. Your nearest rival was handcuffed with a lackluster, though improving, car, and your teammate was a patsy. Winning 7 races in a car that should have won 12 doesn't impress me much. the promise shown in 1996 either dissapeared, or Damon was as bad as many of us thought. Thanks for the attitude, and your fans all preach to me about how brave you are, and how the spirit of your father lingers on in you. I don't buy it, and think you deserve to be where you are today.

You got your WDC, you got your cash and a few choice chickadees.. Now please do us all a favor and go away.

[Todd]

Ross,

You're forgetting Ralf and DC at Canada in 2000 as well.

Bruce,

The past season and a half have shown to anyone that is paying attention that Eddie Irvine can get a decent time with a difficult car and that he is at least the match for JV in pace. But look where Eddie was in 1997. The Ferrari and the Williams were not comparable in performance. Only the brilliance of Schumacher and the poor performance of Villeneuve created the illusion of anything like parity, and only for those who wish it were so, after 4 years of revisionist pining. At the time, only someone trying to be sarcastic would have suggested that the cars or the drivers were comparable.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah Canada 2000 is actually a better argument

JV wasnt really close enough to do a classic overtaking under brakes, so MS looks in his mirror, sees JV is still a bit back, and turns in. Then he gets hit by a Williams


And you wonder why he was so pissed afterwards

[JayWay]

People though don't consider that Michael Schumacher played a part in Eddie Irvine not reaping from his full talent in 97. We have already heard the stories about Eddie being demoted to tyre testing on Friday, and we know that his car was atleast not up to par with Schumachers. 1999 showed that the Ferrari crew put in not the same effort to EI's car that they did to MS's. This is probably split between Schumacher having a hold on that team, and Schumacher just being a very good motivational driver, being able to push and extract the most from his team. Schmacher also did the bulk of the testing with Irvine as his teammate, even when Eddie did test he didn't put in the same amount of concentration/effort and time that MS did. Eddie by his own lazyness was not what he could have been.

[JayWay]

Ross,

Again, MS saw him, hence he he had two opprotunities to turn away, the first he took it, the second he went threw with it. Your argument doesn't hold.

[Manson]

Apples and Oranges my friends. Canada 2000 JV hits Ralf, fair enough, bad move. Jerez 97 MS turns into the Williams alongside in a desparate attempt to take out JV. A bad move vs. dirty driving, not at all the same thing.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Actually its called racing, if anything. MS is the leader, he can take the racing line if he wants it. He didnt chop down early, he didnt do anything out of the ordinary. JV wasnt going to make that apex on his own, which is unfortunate for Michael because he would have zipped by him under acceleration

[JayWay]

Your missing the point. MS knew the situation. He had turned away, and JV was going to overshoot the turn..Untill MS changed his mind and turned in again.

[Manson]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Actually its called racing, if anything. MS is the leader, he can take the racing line if he wants it. He didnt chop down early, he didnt do anything out of the ordinary.

C'mon Ross. You can take any line you want unless another car occupies that space! Turning into a car he most definitely saw is certainly out of the ordinary.

[ZZMS]

that's what I told several times in the past:

if you take a look at the damage Williams had you would notice that the FRONT of the left air intake was damages, which means that it was Williams which had hit right front wheel of Ferrari, not the Ferrari hitting Williams' left side.

another proof of this theory is that if you check JV's in-car camera shots:

after BANG he has corrected his car quickly turning ... to the right, which means something has forced his car to the left... Had MS hit his Williams at the side JV would have had to turn the steering wheel in opposite direction. On the other hand hitting Ferrari's wheel with left air intake would force JV to correct to the right, which was exactly the case.

[Bruce]

Todd - I never directly compared MS to JV or vice versa - they're in different cars so it is meaningless. It's almost as silly as comparing Eddie in Jaguar to Eddie in Ferrari to JV in a BAR. You're the one who's saying that the cars are a mile apart, so how could such a comparison have ANY validity.

Smooth - How was HHF a patsy? He was onlt made to look like one by JV.

I'm consistently surprised by the fact that people would take such issue with my being a fan of JV - both Todd and Smooth have felt the need to suggest that I am somehow being duped, am moronic or just am unable to discern talent...

I would hasten to remind these people that being a fan of a driver doesn't necessarily mean that you have to run around screaming he is the best ever bar none, and I have not in this thread - far from it. Of course, such an idea would be foreign tpo you...;)

12 wins smooth? Yeah right. I suppose that would make the 97 Williams the best car ever, and NO driver has that many wins in a season - certainly not a sophomore.... 97 Williams - the best car ever - Now who's being unrealistic?

[Manson]

Originally posted by ZZMS

that's what I told several times in the past:

if you take a look at the damage Williams had you would notice that the FRONT of the left air intake was damages, which means that it was Williams which had hit right front wheel of Ferrari, not the Ferrari hitting Williams' left side.

Gimme a break, did JV turn left. NO. Even FIA(T) couldn't defend Michael. Give it a rest guys.