112 replies to this topic

[RedFever]

Dennis attacked Arrows saying how pathetic they are for forcing a driver to keep DC behind to get TV exposure. But it looks like Enrique had other motives, totally personal.

"In Monaco I did a race with the fastest guy behind me for more than an hour without making even a mistake. I think that's not being a pay driver," Bernoldi said. "Before maybe no-one here would say I deserve to be in Formula One and now maybe 80 percent say I deserve to be here."

Makes total sense to me.

[squiggle bob]

good way to get noticed i guess.. if you can't keep everyone behind you while you lead, do the next best thing.. keep the guy who would later make the f. lap behind you say "look what i COULD do"..

[Vagabond]

bob, who cares about stars...;)

[Ricardo F1]

Losing more and more ground to the field due to a personal conquest doesn't get much kudos from me. Even Tarso Marques could keep someone behind him at Monaco if he tried. Very sad.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Losing more and more ground to the field due to a personal conquest doesn't get much kudos from me. Even Tarso Marques could keep someone behind him at Monaco if he tried. Very sad.

You echo my thoughts exactly.

[TheDestroyer]

OK... Ignoring the fact he was fighting for position (and everyone seems to be doing this)...

One side benefit is it got his car on television ALOT more - hence, his advertisers got ALOT more airtime...

More airtime = more money for team.

[Peeko]

Losing more and more ground to the field due to a personal conquest doesn't get much kudos from me. Even Tarso Marques could keep someone behind him at Monaco if he tried. Very sad.

So where does it end? 11th place? 10th? 9th? 8th? 7th? What's the point????? Were you shouting for Damon Hill to get out of Schumacher's way in Japan 1998, or were you laughing your freaking head off???

[molive]

Originally posted by RedFever
"In Monaco I did a race with the fastest guy behind me for more than an hour without making even a mistake. I think that's not being a pay driver," Bernoldi said. "Before maybe no-one here would say I deserve to be in Formula One and now maybe 80 percent say I deserve to be here."
[/B]

He was right. He didn´t do anything out of the rule book. He raced his own race, fought for his position, and deserved all the air time he got. Good for him. Much better than Kimi "you first Mr. MS" Haikkonen....;)

[TheDestroyer]

I think it should come down to whether or not Bernoldi was fighting for position. The answer to that is YES, so why should he have moved over for DC, especially at Monaco where there is so much attrition that the difference between, say, 12 & 13th could mean a point?

McLaren & DC are bitching because DC didn't show better and he was incapable of getting around Bernoldi. WAH!

[RedFever]

No, Kimi was intelligent too, because he arrived 4th in that race. Let's not forget that he had only a temporary license and crashing into Schumacher would have given a lot of bullets to those who didn't want him in F1. He had to race intelligently and he did. After all, there is already Montoya taking credit for all the things an F1 driver should never do.......;)

[Ricardo F1]

Actually it must be said he didn't act like a paid driver. He should place an ad in next months F1 Racing "Mobile Chicane for hire" and see how many teams respond.

[Wolf]

Molive- Bernoldi had nothing to lose... Kimi would've lost engine which would disappear from his car for the next race.;)

[gerry nassar]

There are two rights here -

Bernoldi was right to fight for his position no matter who was behind him

and

Kimi was right to let MS through so as to not waste time in holding MS back when he would eventually get passed anyway (plus Ferrari supply engines to Sauber)

[Hooster]

Originally posted by Peeko


So where does it end? 11th place? 10th? 9th? 8th? 7th? What's the point????? Were you shouting for Damon Hill to get out of Schumacher's way in Japan 1998, or were you laughing your freaking head off???

Good point. Damn Hill holding MS up could easily have been make or break for the championship. Did you catch MS fans whining about Damon after the race? I don't think so. Did Jean Todt threaten Damon after the race? No way. Are MacLaren sore losers? Yes.

[obi-one]

I don't understand why people are not getting on DC's case for lounging around for so long.

How early could DC have pitted, taken on a full load of fuel and still made it to the end?

[Hooster]

Originally posted by obi-one
I don't understand why people are not getting on DC's case for lounging around for so long.

How early could DC have pitted, taken on a full load of fuel and still made it to the end?

If DC had pitted earlier he, his fans and Ron would not have had an excuse to whine so much after the race! That's obvious.

[revvhead]

DC was simply too sissy to overtake. I've said it elsewhere on the bb and i'll say it again Jos overtook 5 cars in an Arrows ( er, wasnt that the car bernoldi was driving?) in the same race.DC couldnt overtake a car that was slower than him.
The real reason why enrique did it: Dc didnt ovetake him.

[Force Ten]

Originally posted by Hooster
Good point. Damn Hill holding MS up could easily have been make or break for the championship. Did you catch MS fans whining about Damon after the race? I don't think so.

Hooster, yes, we did. On numerous occasions - like a couple of posts in every couple of weeks telling what a wanker Damon was for doing it. I guess it all depends on what side of fence you are...

A certain point of view: Bernoldi didn't let Coulthard through - good, Räikkönen did let Schumacher through - also good, Hill didn't let Schumacher through - suddenly somehow bad.

Or looking from the other side of the fence: Bernoldi didn't let Coulthard through - bad, Räikkönen did let Schumacher through - also bad, Hill didn't let Schumacher through - suddenly somehow good.

I don't have any problem with Bernoldi, what he did didn't make me any happier but that's what he's supposed to do over there. But I find it ludicrous that there are guys that defend Bernoldi for holding a position against Coulthard and at the same time defending Räikkönen for almost driving off the track to let Schumacher by. In this very thread a couple of posts upside you find this spelled out.

[Peter Perfect]

Bernoldi did the right thing, he's a racing driver and he's paid to race.
Mac fans are annoyed that a faster car with a faster driver can't overtake on what is, basically, a one lane scalectrix track.
F1 fans shouldn't be arguing over whether bernoldli should have got out of Coulthards way, the problem is that the track doesn't allow drivers to race each other.
I know Monaco keeps being called the Jewel in the Crown of F1, and yes it takes a lot of skill to do a quick lap and to continuously lap quickly. But it is not a racetrack.
IMO the sooner it goes, the better.

[PeaQ]

Originally posted by Force Ten
Hooster, yes, we did. On numerous occasions - like a couple of posts in every couple of weeks telling what a wanker Damon was for doing it. I guess it all depends on what side of fence you are...

A certain point of view: Bernoldi didn't let Coulthard through - good, Räikkönen did let Schumacher through - also good, Hill didn't let Schumacher through - suddenly somehow bad.

Or looking from the other side of the fence: Bernoldi didn't let Coulthard through - bad, Räikkönen did let Schumacher through - also bad, Hill didn't let Schumacher through - suddenly somehow good.

Verry treu....

[Skouse]

I agree with force ten. Bernoldi was well within the rules to hold up DC, but the continued assertion that DC is a wimp for not passing is absolute BS. I've said before on this BB that if an F1 driver doesn't WANT to let you pass at Monaco, you're not getting passed. Bernoldi was determined not to let DC through and when DC tried under braking, Bernoldi almost cut his nose off. Truth is if you get by at monaco the driver in front of you is well aware that your faster and ,I believe, in most cases will let you through. Do you guys forget last year when DC hunted down MS, caught him and passed him while flipping him the bird. GREAT. I know it wasn't Monaco, but it was a great display of driving. Cheers.

[Viss1]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Actually it must be said he didn't act like a paid driver. He should place an ad in next months F1 Racing "Mobile Chicane for hire" and see how many teams respond.

[TheDestroyer]

Face it... DC has always had a problem making the tougher passes...

[Force Ten]

So does Schumacher...

[TheDestroyer]

Force? If you mean Schumi, then I don't think so.

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by TheDestroyer
Face it... DC has always had a problem making the tougher passes...

Oh dear oh dear! How many grands prix have you watched?? Remember Malaysia '99, Magny-Cours '00, and Silverstone '00? DC is one of the ABSOLUTE BEST overtakers of the current crop of drivers! And please, remember that its a bit riskier to pass a rookie, than say Michael Schumacher.

[TheDestroyer]

race, enough to know that DC can overtake but he does have a problem making the tougher passes - something that goes back to his days at Williams...

I think he's gotten somewhat better but...

[MortenF1]

Maybe I don't understand what you mean? 'Cause the passes I mentioned was really aggressive, and of a "tough" caracter. He wrestled past MS and RB. Yes, he might sometimes be a bit cautios when it comes to lapping, but like I said, its a risk to just dive inside the backmarkers.

[Smooth]

Was McLaren wrong in complaining? Ask yourself how you would have felt if Eddie Jordan had blown a gasket at DC for holding up Trulli in Canada. Was it just to get TV time, or was it DC's job?


DC should have gotten by. Period. Jos got around cars who were much less than 4 seconds a lap slower. Mika has made competitive passes in Monaco, as has Michael. DC can make some brilliant passes at the front of the grid, at times, but seems to get lost when lapping traffic, or battling with a much slower car.

[PeaQ]

destroyer, you mean MS is a good at overtaking?

Smooth, you can say what you want, but remember it was a Arrows in front of him, and it was in Monaco.
I cant seem to recall that Häkkinen was called a bad overtaker in Malaysia this year??

[TheDestroyer]

race, don't get me wrong... This year's DC is much different than years past. I think he might finally have the character to try and TAKE the WDC - if not this year, maybe next.

smooth, i agree with you too... Yes, it absolutely sucks and must be incredibly frustrating to be stuck behind a slower car on a tough passing course. But DC doesn't get paid to kick back and do fun laps now does he?

Besides, him and McLaren should have just kept their collective mouths shut - at most say it sucked to be stuc behind a slower car and leave it at that... No need to start crying and bitching.

OK, so maybe that's asking a bit much from RD but DC has more character than that (at least I thought so)...

[MortenF1]

Then I think, to some degree, we agree, destroyer.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by PeaQ
Smooth, you can say what you want, but remember it was a Arrows in front of him, and it was in Monaco.
I cant seem to recall that Häkkinen was called a bad overtaker in Malaysia this year??

That Arrows was slower in every single part of the course. So what is the relevance?? DC made a couple of pathetic attempts to stick his nose in, but I never saw a decisive attempt from him: It was if he was waiting for EB to just wave him through instead of pushing the issue.

And waht does Hakki in Sepang have to do with it?? Completely different situation.

[Saltire]

Originally posted by Smooth

Was McLaren wrong in complaining? Ask yourself how you would have felt if Eddie Jordan had blown a gasket at DC for holding up Trulli in Canada. Was it just to get TV time, or was it DC's job?


DC should have gotten by. Period. Jos got around cars who were much less than 4 seconds a lap slower. Mika has made competitive passes in Monaco, as has Michael. DC can make some brilliant passes at the front of the grid, at times, but seems to get lost when lapping traffic, or battling with a much slower car.

Thank you once again for your unbiased opinion :yawn:

Would the fact that DC was carrying nearly 40% more fuel than Bernoldi have anything to do with him being unable to out-brake or out-accelerate the Arrows.

Should that FACT be ignored since it obviously flys in the face of your expert opinion :yawn:

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Saltire


Thank you once again for your unbiased opinion :yawn:

Would the fact that DC was carrying nearly 40% more fuel than Bernoldi have anything to do with him being unable to out-brake or out-accelerate the Arrows.

Should that FACT be ignored since it obviously flys in the face of your expert opinion :yawn:

how was it DC was faster in every speed trap, nearly every lap? And the larger fuel load would still not reduce the performance deficit dramatically.

think about that fact

Or should the Arrows be at the front of the grid every race, based on your fact, as they should easily pass everyone under braking and acceleration??

[PeaQ]

Smooth
So you think he should have dived in infront of Bernoldi, even tho it might have ended his race? Yea, great tactic….

Wasnt Häkkinen (in a McLaren) stuck behind Verstappen (in a Arrows) in Malaysia, even tho Häkkinen was 'faster in every single part of the course'?

[Saltire]

Originally posted by Smooth


how was it DC was faster in every speed trap, nearly every lap? And the larger fuel load would still not reduce the performance deficit dramatically.

think about that fact

Or should the Arrows be at the front of the grid every race, based on your fact, as they should easily pass everyone under braking and acceleration??

The extra weight of fuel has a significant effect on a car's braking ability and acceleration especially early in a race when a car is at its maximum weight.

Speed trap figures have no relevaence to this whatsoever.

[pa]

Originally posted by TheDestroyer
OK... Ignoring the fact he was fighting for position (and everyone seems to be doing this)...

One side benefit is it got his car on television ALOT more - hence, his advertisers got ALOT more airtime...

More airtime = more money for team.

Let's see - Arrows' anchor sponsor is Orange - their main market is the UK. So, we have an Arrows car driven by a Spaniard in Monaco holding up a Brit who is second in the WDC hunt. Not the kind of exposure I'd like.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Saltire


The extra weight of fuel has a significant effect on a car's braking ability and acceleration especially early in a race when a car is at its maximum weight.

Speed trap figures have no relevaence to this whatsoever.

Yes, but when a car has such an advantage anyway, the extra fuel is only going to reduce it, not eliminate it. At least not in the real world.

And yes, the speedtraps are relevant: There are only short straights in Monaco, and while top speeds are reduced, getting to them shows the acceleration/ braking. How can DC be faster on a straight while being out-accelerated by Bernoldi? And how could he reach a higher top speed and still brake down to cornering speed if Bernoldi was able to outbrake him?

[Smooth]

Originally posted by PeaQ
Smooth
So you think he should have dived in infront of Bernoldi, even tho it might have ended his race? Yea, great tactic….

Wasnt Häkkinen (in a McLaren) stuck behind Verstappen (in a Arrows) in Malaysia, even tho Häkkinen was 'faster in every single part of the course'?

No, DC should have passed Bernoldi.


And no, Hakkinen was slower than Jos in Malaysia in many parts of the course. Jos is a better wet weather driver than Mika, and you obviously missed the fact that the race was run under both wet and changing conditions. Hakki did, however, make a couple of good attempts on Jos, pasing him on one attempt, only to run wide and give Jos back the position. Monaco doesn't allow for as much of those types of position changes, but people who say it is impossible to pass in Monaco obviously don't watch the whole race: There is always a fair amount of overtaking going on, as usual, in the middle and back of the grid.

but because DC couldn't pass a MUCH slower car. (MUCH SLOWER!), it is suddenly the tracks fault.

[TheDestroyer]

pa,

one rule of marketing.... make either a really positive or really negative impression...

either will lead to sales...

[Saltire]

Originally posted by pa


Let's see - Arrows' anchor sponsor is Orange - their main market is the UK. So, we have an Arrows car driven by a Spaniard in Monaco holding up a Brit who is second in the WDC hunt. Not the kind of exposure I'd like.

Damn it never thought about it that way!
As an Orange customer and with a mobile bill of £78.16 for last month - do you think if I refuse to pay unless Tom sacks Bernoldi they will take any heed ;)

[RedFever]

I think too many people are using either selective memory or just would like things to happen in a way that fits their team needs.

The facts are that there are rules that govern the sport. Enrique Bernoldi played his cards according to this rules, which state very clearly that if a driver is being lapped, he must get out of the way. If that driver is fighting for position, he can chose the line of race he sees fit. End of conversation. Enrique did what he is allowed to do by the rules. Every driver and team that competes in F1 has implicity accepted the rules by enrolling in the competition. If they don't like the current rules, they might appeal for future changes, but how things are now, Enrique did his job correctly.

I think a few people can't accept the situation because of the positions involved. Bernoldi holding DC for 16th place kind of got them pissed. However, I didn't hear much complain for Jos, with the same car, holding up Mika in Malaysia. Is it because Jos was in 4th position? yet, Jos just like Enrique knew he could not hold that position, due to fuel needs. But he was haild as a ballsy driver for fighting it out with Mika.

May I remind you that the FIA doesn't make distinctions between fighting for points positions and back-marker positions? maybe you ought to remember that. Last year Jacques Villeneuve held up Schumacher in a Ferrari that was clearly one full second faster for maybe 20-30 laps. I had nothing against JV for doing that, he was doing his job, good for him he was able to keep a faster Schumi trailing him for so long. The same people celebrating JV then are the ones one accusing Enrique of being unsportmanlike. Get a grip on your bias and let the rules govern the races.

Regarding DC. He can be a phenomenal overtaker, he has done some great passes in his career. It seems however, he has a problem to pass slower cars in the back. Maybe when fighting for a top position, he doesn't care about the risks, maybe he feels they are outweighted by the possible returns of a successful pass, also because the other driver also has a lot too lose in case of a crash, while when fighting with a backmarker he is too concerned about the fact he has a lot too lose against a driver who can afford chances because he is behind. The fact of the matter is that while he is brilliant at passing drivers in points positions, he doesn't seem to be as aggressive and determined when passing backmarkers as Mika Hakkinen and Schumacher.

[PeaQ]

Smooth
Oh, so in malaysia we can consider the difficult conditions that made it hard to overtake, but in Monaco we just are supposed to look at the cars bhp’s and draw our conclusion and screw the conditions? Yes, in that case is Enrique Bernoldi a 10 time better driver than David Coulthard.

[…]pasing him on one attempt, only to run wide and give Jos back the position.

The difference is maybe that if you pass a car in Monaco, only to run wide, you’ll find yourself sitting in the fences…

but because DC couldn't pass a MUCH slower car. (MUCH SLOWER!), it is suddenly the tracks fault.

who's 'fault'(?) is it then?

[Oho]

Ave !!

Smooth, I think you remember Malaysia a bit incorrectly. Yes for the few laps both Hakkinen and Jos were on wets Jos was quicker but Mika had a ton of fuel as he was not refueled when he went for the dries and ran over 2/3rds of the race with a single tank. As soon as they both were on dries Mika was overall quicker dispite the damp track. Mika quickly made his first attempt but lost in the the exit of the last corner as he seemed unable to turn the car due to understeer, he could have forced Jos wide ala Montoya at Brazil but chose not to do it. The second attempt that came much later was in the corner leading to the Janus straight. Mika made a clean pass, he had a clean exit from the corner but was effectively outaccelerated by the Arrows of Verstappen and Jos had the inside line into the last corner well before they even were in the braking area. At that point Mika really had no choices but to cut Verstapen off or to take wider line and lose his position, he chose the latter and actually lost two places.

- Oho -

[PeaQ]

thats how I remeber it too...

[Smooth]

Originally posted by PeaQ
Smooth
Oh, so in malaysia we can consider the difficult conditions that made it hard to overtake, but in Monaco we just are supposed to look at the cars bhp’s and draw our conclusion and screw the conditions? Yes, in that case is Enrique Bernoldi a 10 time better driver than David Coulthard.

The difference is maybe that if you pass a car in Monaco, only to run wide, you’ll find yourself sitting in the fences…


who's 'fault'(?) is it then?

?? You make a compelling case.

[Force Ten]

Originally posted by RedFever
Last year Jacques Villeneuve held up Schumacher in a Ferrari that was clearly one full second faster for maybe 20-30 laps. I had nothing against JV for doing that, he was doing his job, good for him he was able to keep a faster Schumi trailing him for so long. The same people celebrating JV then are the ones one accusing Enrique of being unsportmanlike. Get a grip on your bias and let the rules govern the races.

The Villeneuve thing was my point when I said that so is Schumacher (having problems with overtaking).

May I turn this upside down and say that many (not you, RedFever) that were furious of Jacques or Damon for not letting Schumacher by at Barcelona or Suzuka were the ones here giving high fives to Bernoldi for not letting Coulthard by? It goes both ways in my opinion and is mostly down on what side of the fence we are sitting.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Force Ten
May I turn this upside down and say that many (not you, RedFever) that were furious of Jacques or Damon for not letting Schumacher by at Barcelona or Suzuka were the ones here giving high fives to Bernoldi for not letting Coulthard by? It goes both ways in my opinion and is mostly down on what side of the fence we are sitting.

I don't rember a huge stink over either incident. It was frustrating, but more frustrating that MS didn't make an attempt on JV, than the fact that JV held him up. We are also talking night and day in talent, and ability to make your car wide, between JV and EB.

Damon in Suzuka was a little different. I don't blame Damon for racing for his position, but he chose to do it for reasons other than just keeping his position. the last race, where the WDC was to be decided, is a little different circumstance, though I still belive Damon was not out of line doing what he did.

[pa]

Originally posted by TheDestroyer
pa,

one rule of marketing.... make either a really positive or really negative impression...

either will lead to sales...

Oh? What about Exxon's sales after the Exxon Valdez thingie? And there a good reason nobody bought the Pinto after all those 'splosions. And would you like to be holding Bridgestone stock after all those tire recalls? I could go on, but...