32 replies to this topic

[tallguy]

Just saw a documentary that made my jaw drop

It was calles Seismic Seconds and deals with the few seconds that change world history.

From reading this bb I thought Senna's steering broke and what killed him was a peice of suspension peircing his helmet ( I swear someone posted a pic of that helmet with the hole in it here )

The doco claimed the steering didn't break as force on the steering was still registered by the computer after controll was lost.

They claim the laps behind the pace car lowered the temp in the tyres which in turn lowered the ride height causing the skidtray to make contact with the track eliminating the much needed under car airflow for downforce.
This is what they say caused the crash !!

I now have no idea what to believe

from http://www.ayrton-se...s/trialidx.html

Then Passarini produced a new video regarding the evidence. The circumference traced from the yellow button was relative to the movements of the chassis, whereas just before the crash the yellow button lowers to the level of the V, which is a deflection of 28mm.

Dominioni introduced a video brought from the factory: the steering of Senna's car showed it had a flexibility of 15mm.

Forghieri exploded: Any pilot would have refused to drive with steering in that condition.

According to this presentation Senna hit the wall at 188km/h against the 216km/h calculated by the experts for the prosecution.

In ideal conditions Senna would have crashed at 167km/h, against the 140km/h estimated by the prosecution.

But in both cases the front right wheel of Senna's car would have become detached hitting his head at the same point and with enough force to kill.

Does ANYONE know what really happened ??

I feel I've been believing a lie..........

[JayWay]

So he was killed by his tyre, not by his wishbone?

[TheD2JBug]

uhm a wishbone through the visor is gonna leave a mark

[AD]

I don't think that we'll ever know what happened to Senna, although a failed steering column seems to be the likely solution. MS said in the post race conference that Senna's car was bottomening severly on the lap he went off and on the lap before that at the Tamburello curve. This probably had an effect as well IMO.

This race and the 1966 Belgian (where Stewart was in a bad accident) gps were probably the 2 most important races ever, as they both darastically improved the safety of F1. F1 can and will never be too safe.

[JayWay]

D2J,

There was a hole through his visor, and the funeral had to be closed coffin because his face was so badly disfigured.

[TheD2JBug]

Hence my comment

[312 PB]

tallguy,

did you tape that proggy???

[tallguy]

nope.....but I've had 3 phone calls from others asking if I did.......damn !

Jayway, does it seem to you that all the details were hushed up regarding HOW he died ?

[kenny]

Originally posted by tallguy

The doco claimed the steering didn't break as force on the steering was still registered by the computer after controll was lost.

Williams clamed on their telemetry that they could see Senna's steering column was still functioning...
Isn't this normal? Since inside the steering column the data cables are located... They DIDN't brake... it was the METAL part that broke...
so the data cables were still functioning, so it is normal that WIlliams saw it was still working (more info about this can be found, not only at the S-Files, but also in Chris Hilton's book, As time goes by)...

[pRy]

This whole issue seems to get tossed into the air every so often and all the same questions are asked again and again. I saw an article in the latest Official F1 Magazine claiming a "new" video of the accident had been released, this happened some 4 years ago!

To clear up the tyre thing, their is no questioning what happened. When his car hit the wall, the front right tyre was forced up against the side of the car, ran up against the side of the cockpit up to the right side of Senna's helmet, at that point one of the suspension rods by chance pierced his visor on the right side, causing a serious head injury. This is undisputed fact. The only "cover up" may have been to try and not shout about what must have been a terrible injury, usually people say "The person died instantly" rather than go into details of injuries.

[kenny]

Originally posted by Tech_Nut
Anyone know if the Williams team ever got the car back? I don't think they did. I think engineers from the team were allowed to examine it just once, and only for a few hours, about a week after the accident. That's all.

All the enquiry report details were written by non-Williams engineers.

Am I wrong or right on this one?

TN

Patrick Head was able to see the car a few months after the accident... but he wasnt allowed to even touch it...
Head told afterwards that due to the fact that they waited for so long, the wreckage was useless and nothing could be done with it anymore...
Head beleived that if Williams would have been able to investigate the wreck Immediatly they would have been 'closer' to the cause of the accident...

One thing which all the 'experts' agree on, is that it wasnt a driver's fault...
I agree too...

[kenny]

Originally posted by Tech_Nut
or is it sealed up in a lock-up garage somewhere in Italy?


TN

yes...Last I heard was that the wreck is locked up in a garage in italy... but it is already full of rust(sp?) and nothing can be done with it anymore...

Of all the theories I heard.. the Steering column failure seems the most logical one..especially when you watch the onboard camera with Senna...
you can see he is turning the steeringwheel, but his front wheels just point straight...!!!

[baddog]

on board cameras always make it look like the front wheels arent turning though.

the telemetry discussed in this program (as I mentioned in my earlier thread on this subject which I guess dropped off the front page and tallguy didnt see it) indicated that truning force was being applied to the lower steering column by the steering wheel right up to impact.. this indicates that it was still attached.

Shaun

[pRy]

Originally posted by Tech_Nut
Anyone know if the Williams team ever got the car back? I don't think they did. I think engineers from the team were allowed to examine it just once, and only for a few hours, about a week after the accident. That's all.

TN

One of the things that always sent a shiver down my spine was a report that said his car had sat in a shed inside the Imola circuit for years.

[Nasty McBastard]

isnt it generally accepted what caused him to die...

but as what made him leave the track... well.. if you watch you DO see some sparks from under the car as he spears off....

from bottoming out? maybe

[Spunout]

I don´t know what really happened but the way he "lost" the front end indeed looked suspicious. At least to me it looked like a steering problem.

[ebe]

I suppose AS was dead or unconscious before he even left the track and hit the gravel at all.

A footage shows his head down while still on the track.
Maybe a heartattack or something like that.

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by ebe
I suppose AS was dead or unconscious before he even left the track and hit the gravel at all.

A footage shows his head down while still on the track.
Maybe a heartattack or something like that.

And THAT is one of the bollocks stories.

[Frans]

find the truth:

click here

[kenny]

Originally posted by ebe
I suppose AS was dead or unconscious before he even left the track and hit the gravel at all.

A footage shows his head down while still on the track.
Maybe a heartattack or something like that.

Before you say something like that... you should look at the FACTS first!!!!!
Telemetry SHOWED Senna braked and shifted back UNTIL THE LAST SECOND!!!!
we all know Senna was good, but even he couldnt have done that unconscious!
Also the autopsy that beside the severe brain damage he suffered bcs of the suspension part he was in PERFECT health. He didnt even break any bones...

Ebe, I know you didnt like Senna, but even for you to conclude something like that is bollocks... pls nxt time check the FACTS,,,

[arcwulf7]

I'd heard the autopsy showed that the piece of debris, in all liklihood a shard of carbon fibre suspension material, pierced and crushed the forehead into the frontal cortex and lobe of the brain. Always fatal, but the basic life mechanisms, heart, lungs can continue for a time as they are regulated from the back and base area of the brain. This type of injury would cause immediate unconciousness, but i have a clear recollection of Senna moving his head up momentarily in the immediate aftermath of the crash. Possibly an autonomic response, or maybe an illusion caused by the jerky helicopter camera.

[kenny]

Originally posted by arcwulf7
I'd heard the autopsy showed that the piece of debris, in all liklihood a shard of carbon fibre suspension material, pierced and crushed the forehead into the frontal cortex and lobe of the brain. Always fatal, but the basic life mechanisms, heart, lungs can continue for a time as they are regulated from the back and base area of the brain. This type of injury would cause immediate unconciousness, but i have a clear recollection of Senna moving his head up momentarily in the immediate aftermath of the crash. Possibly an autonomic response, or maybe an illusion caused by the jerky helicopter camera.

No you're right.. he did move his head briefly.. I think 2 times...
but apparently it was jsut a neve reaction...
accordign to Sid Watkins, he was unconscious immediatly after the impact..

[Ali_G]

Guys I have to add to this Bottoming Out THEORY.

For a start 94 was the first year that the Safety Car was being used.

Senna was highly critical about the safety car. he saw it as a danger for the very reason of cooler tyres and less air pressure.

In the drivers breefing before the race he asked for teh Safety Car not to be used but was ignored.

I can't remember where I saw this. Some article or something.

Niall

[kenny]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Guys I have to add to this Bottoming Out THEORY.

For a start 94 was the first year that the Safety Car was being used.

Senna was highly critical about the safety car. he saw it as a danger for the very reason of cooler tyres and less air pressure.

In the drivers breefing before the race he asked for teh Safety Car not to be used but was ignored.

I can't remember where I saw this. Some article or something.

Niall

I've thought about this one as well.. and it was mentioned in the Senna trial a while ago...
But it was overrules since Senna's lap right before the crash. was one of the fastest driven all race. only bettered by Schumacher and Hill later in the race...
so the tyres seemed good enough...
there is ofcourse the fact that Senna's Williams was very low to the ground, and there were a lot of bumps in tamburello

[leegle]

If Senna had his car running lower then he would have more downforce for that fast lap and anyway the Williams were a better car then at that time.

[ebe]

@ kenny

If I did like Senna or not has nothing to do with it.

Why does a driver look down, really let his head hang down
while driving on the track ?
Why is his left hand NOT on the steering wheel ?

What is so strange saying that he might have had a sudden problem (unconscious or a something like that) ?

As I remember his brain was partly destroyed by the accident,
so it might have been difficult to find out afterwards, if he had
a bursted vein in the brain. This might have caused him hardly to see or be almost unconscious.

The story with the undercooled tires is - somehow -
strange.
Yes it is peculiar !

When in Silverstone D.Hill slowed down so much on the
formation lap, that MS passed him - for what he was disqualified later on - did he do that to have cool tires just like Senna in Imola ?

No, way. AS tires were on temperature already long time before the accident.

[kenny]

Originally posted by ebe
@ kenny

Why does a driver look down, really let his head hang down
while driving on the track ?
Why is his left hand NOT on the steering wheel ?

When you look at the onboard camera, his head didnt look down...
he was leaning it over to the left... why? because his car was not stearing in, and this is a natural reaction...
and both is hands WERE on the steeting wheel... and as I said before... He BRAKED and shifted back right up until the last thousand of a second before hitting the wall... so your theory that something physically happened to him can be forgotten...

[kenny]

Ifficial report of the Senna trial:

1997 March 05

Maurizio Passarini tells the court:

"I wish to clarify that I do not attribute any causal significance to the small object on the track."

"An inquiry by experts revealed that no blame can be attached to Ayrton Senna. He had not taken any drugs, he did not make a driving error and he did not pass out - contrary to reports in the British press."

"There was no illness because Senna desperately tried to stop the car until the very end."

Chief prosecutor, Maurizio Passarini, has lodged an appeal against judge Antonio Costanzo's decision to acquit two of the defendants in the Senna trial, namely Patrick Head, technical director at Williams GP and Adrian Newey, former Williams chief designer.

It was Passarini's opinion that Head and Newey were ultimately responsible for the bad design and workmanship of the steering column modifications carried out on Ayrton Senna's Williams-Renault. In his closing statement (at the trial) Passarini had asked that both Head and Newey receive one year suspended sentences.

Although the judge stated that - It was the breaking of the modified steering column that caused Ayrton Senna's Williams-Renault to leave the track at the Tamburello curve - he had found both defendants 'Not Guilty'.

[Kiwi]

I saw this docco as well (only shown in NZ? can't believe that).

The steering column had been lengthend (I can't remember the exact reason why) by welding a new section into the middle of it. The data from the car however (as stated by others) showed that the steering was still working right up to the moment of impact.

The problem was the safety car. It was the first time ever that a safety car had been used in F1 on a dry track. It was very shortly after the safety car went off that the accident occured (not sure exactly, but within 1 or 2 laps). The feeling was that the lower tyre pressures caused by slow laps behind the safety car reduced the ride height to a point where the car bottomed out severley. As the car relied on the flow of air underneath for it's downforce, when the car bottomed the airflow stopped causing the lack of grip & the subsequent impact.

The thought was that Senna was under major pressure at this race. He had scored no points in the championship to before this race in what many thought was the best car. Maybe he pushed too hard too soon after the safety car went in.

The programme did not deal with what exactly killed him - just what may have caused the accident.

Don't flame me - this is the conclusions from the programme

[David J Jones]

From my recollections of the race - which I watched on Eurosport - it seemed that Senna's car had lost steering. The front wheels were all over the place as the car left the road just before impact.

Unlike the BBC broadcast Eurosport stayed with the car when Senna was removed and Sid Watkins was working on him.
It was obvious from the amount of blood around that Senna would be lucky to survive.

I do recall that that the safety car routine was castigated - some thought it had not gone fast enough - certainly if I remember correctly the driver was changed for subsequent races.

Maybe it was partially responsible but the steering column had definately broken and was I believe the major cause of the car leaving the road.

[Elspeth]

Just a few things to add. The suspension rod pierced his visor; if you want the photo of the helmet PM me. And Gerhard Berger said Senna was still alive at the hospital, although unconscious and obviously fatally injured, when he went to say goodbye.

The race coverage I saw did not have onboard from Senna's car, but from MS following. From this view Ayrton's car was going into the turn, then went to the right straight off the track.

[black magic]

I have never been able to understand why anyone would accept that the bottoming out of the car would have been responsible. If ms hadn't made those comments surely it would have been unlikely to have been major supposition. Every time I look at that video i see his car fail to take the corner with no change in its path into the wall.

Do really expect me to believe that the great senna would have been as powerless as the video shows.

If bottoming out was the cause after the safety car why have we never seen a similar incident since?

As far as I can recalll williams have never denied welding the stearing column the night before the accident. sensors showing the wheel turning would be exactly what I'd expect to see if the stearing column had broken as senna realises he has no control over his car. I think people also forget the huge pressure williams and senna were under having failed to score in the season and ms taking full points. Add the suspicion by some that the benetton was elegal and I think it becomes more understandable why a team in desperation may have cut corners.

[Ricardo F1]

ebe - actually as I recall his head did go down before he left the circuit, but he wasn't unconscious or anything of the sort - he was looking down to see what the hell had happened to the steering column. The rest is very well known, unfortunately.