135 replies to this topic

[Chico Landi]

Hello to everyone in the Nostalgic Forum!!!
May I introduce myself. I'm a big fan of Chico Landi, the first brazilian driver to drive in F1 (Italian GP 1951). I'm doing a big research about his life, and this may turn into a nice book. I was so glad to find this space in Internet, with people sharing their knowledges about historical racing (and I love historical racing!!!).

Maybe I have too many questions to pose, but I'll better start with the most important ones:

1) Landi won the 1948 Bari GP. I've searched through the whole Internet and never found a result of this race. Does anyone have it? Also, does anyone have a few lines about this race?

2) Landi drove Bugattis in the 30's, mostly in the Gavea GPs. Does anyone know a site or a good book where I can find more information about this cars?

Thanks in advance!

[Vitesse2]

Welcome to the Nostalgia Forum Chico!

Bari GP 1948

1 Chico Landi (Ferrari)
2 Felice Bonetto (Cisitalia)
3 Achille Varzi (Cisitalia)

Sorry I only have the first three, but you could try e-mailing Stefan Ornerdal, who is compiling a Formula 2 website and probably has the details:

mailto:stefan.ornerdal@minmail.net

For links to various Bugatti sites try:

http://www.racer.demon.nl/mrh

and

http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman

Best of luck with your searches!!!

[Marcor]

The 1948 Bari GP was a F2 race, held on 30 May.

1- Landi Ferrari 166 I, 321 km, 108.633 km/h
2- Bonetto Cisitalia D46
3- Varzi Cisitalia D46

Tazio Nuvolari started the race with the Ferrari 166 #6. Because of his health and the hot heat, he was replaced after some laps by Franco Cortese. They eventually finished 4th.

I can add two no-finishers: Piero Taruffi (Cisitalia D46) and S. Besana (Ferrari 166 C 004C)


Chico Landi also won the 1952 edition of the race, a sports car race.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

I'm sorry Chico (wonderful pseud!), I do not have anything about the Bari GP 1948, except that it was for Formula 2, and the podium finishers: 1.Landi, 2.Bonetto, 3.Varzi and Tazio Nuvolari crashed out.

A year ago (or more) there was a very good website about the Bari races, but I can't find it any longer... The site had track maps, grid positions etc. If I remember correct, the site had some connections with "Old Cars Club Bari" and they have a website: http://www.oldcarsclub.org

Try to contact them, and good luck with your research!

Cheers
Stefan

[Michael Müller]

The Ferrari 166 Spyder Corsa # 004C for Soave Besana is correct, the other car of the Besana brothers - # 002C - in fact was driven by Chico Landi. The Scuderia Ferrari itself entered 3 cars for Bari, all 166 SC, # 014I for Nuvolari/Cortese (4th), # 008I for Farina (DNF), and # 012I for Righetti (DNF). Photo below shows Chico Landi with race number 38 behind Nuvolari with no. 6.



It would be interesting to learn more about the Besana-Landi conncetion, Gabriele Besana competed with # 002C in the 1947/48 Temporada, with the last race held at Interlagos on April 11. So the car returned home to Italy just a few days before the Bari event. Is it possible that Besana met Landi in South America, and invited him to Italy to drive his car? Although Landi won the race, this was his only appearance in one the Besana cars.

[Felix Muelas]

Would someone be kind enough to scan page 242 of Sheldon´s Vol 4 and send it to Chico?

I know the race numbers on that are "unknown" but with the contributions from Michael, for example, we now have two known...

OK, if nobody can in the next 24 hours, I´ll do it myself unless instructed otherwise.

Felix

[Michael Müller]

Farina had r/n 8.

[Roger Clark]

[Michael Müller]

Unfortunately again one of the examples of Sheldon's faults in chassis numbers. Ferrari # 006C never existed, it was # 006I (# 004C was the last Spyder Corsa with C designation), and both Scuderia Inter cars - # 006I and #010I - had been at Stockholm that weekend. I also doubt Landi's entry by the SF, as # 002C (as also # 004C) had been a privately owned Besana car.

[Mike Goodell]

Nicola Cherubini? Sounds like a woman's name. Anyone know anything about her?

[Michael Müller]

In Italy "Nicola" is a male name, see also Nicola Larini.

[David McKinney]

The question I've always wanted answered is: what was Landi's connection with Bari? He seemed to race there every year (and with a fair amount of success), but didn't do many other European races

[Michael Müller]

Yes, also next year 1949 his first European appearance seems to be Bari again on June 12. This time with his Ferrari 166 F2/FL monoposto # 04C, which he kept for years. 04C (not 004C!) was a 1948 F1 works monoposto, which then was equipped with a FL engine (2 ltr s/c) and sent to South America to be raced by Farina in the Temporada. It is reported that after the last race at Gavea on 27 March 1949 the SF sold the car to the ACB for Landi or to Landi personally, but I doubt this at this early point. As said before, # 04C, now in F2 version, was raced by Landi at Bari on 12 June 1949, but obviously under the banner of the Scuderia Ferrari, as during the race he had to hand over the car to works driver Luigi Villoresi. 2 weeks later at Monza Landi again drove # 04C, but then he disappeared from the European racing scene again, and with him # 04C. He raced this car in South America with considerable success till 1952, when he switched over to a Ferrari 375. Unfortunately from this period I have only one photo available, showing Landi behind Fangio (in # 013F) at Boa Vista in 1952.



From 1946 to 1948 Landi drove (in South America) an Alfa-Romeo 8C-308, and in the first months of 1949 a Maserati 4CL.

Some questions which hopefully can be answered by our new member Chico:

When exactly in 1949 # 04C was acquired from the SF? Already in spring 1949 in Brazil, or after the Monza race end of June? And by whom? Landi privately, or the ACB, or even the Brazilian government (as gift to Landi) as some sources report?

# 04C was renumbered later to # 0106, this general renumbering action for most of the privately owned monoposti by Ferrari took place somewhere late 1950 / early 1951. Obviously the car was in Maranello where it must have been updated. As found years later it has engine 10 RE, gearbox 166 S 02, rear axle 5 GP 49 and frame F1/F2 0106. However, no European racing appearances of 04C / 0106 known in this period. Anybody knowing more?

What happened to # 04C in 1952 and thereafter? For the Gran Premio de Uruguay at Piriapolis on 23 March 1952 it was given to Francisco Marques, one week later at the GP Montevideo it was again in Landi’s hands, and then the story ends. Where is the car today? As far I know it survived in the hands of a American collector, but I’m lacking details.

Any additional photos available? Especially interested in such from the Landi period, and of the car as existing today.

[Michael Müller]

One word to Landi and the Italian GP 1951. He participated in qualifying, but did not start in the race. With 2'11.2 his training time was considerably slower than that of his Ferrari team mates (1'55.1 - 1'58.2), so may be his car was not in order. Any details known?

[Chico Landi]

First of all: a big THANK YOU to everyone for the information provided. The scanning of the book page was just waht I needed! May someone tell me the name of this book and where I may find it (any Internet bookshop)?

About Landi's connections to Bari. As far as I know, after Landi beat Villoresi and Varzi in a torrential rain at the Gavea GP in 47, he was invited personally by Varzi to go to Europe and possibly drive some races there (Varzi would make the connections). Normally, Landi rented cars at the beggining, but I'm not sure. He drove many races in Europe indeed, specially in 1952, where he (not sure here also) bought three Maseratis A6GCM and founded the "Escuderia Bandeirantes" (Maybe someone keen to Masereti's history could throw us a light here).

Michael, sorry but I really have no clue about the "04C". The one thing I know is that Landi owned a Ferrari 250MM (chassi #0274) and this was probably a gift from Il Commendatore himself. Landi was kind of hired by Ferrari since he won Bari at 48, but never really had a chance at the Scuderia, driving just a few minor races to the official team (or with some support from the official team). When he decided to quit Ferrari (between 51 and 54, I still must find out), Enzo was said to give him a car as a present. Il Comendattore enjoyed Landi very much: when Carlos Pace first entered his office at Maranello, at 72, to receive the invitation to drive for the sportscar team, Enzo's first question was "How is Chico Landi? Send my greetings to this wonderful driver".

About the 51 Italian GP: I believe Landi did started the race, but retired after 1 lap with transmission problems (source: 25 anni de Formula 1 - by Piero Casucci and Tommaso Tommasi - printed in 1975 Arnoldo Mondadori Editore).

[Roger Clark]

I also believe that Landi started the 1951 Italian GP, but retired on the first lap. This is stated by Autosport and Motor Sport. Autocourse showed him on the grid but doesn't mention whether he started. Autocourse also says that he drove a 2.5litre, 4-cylinder car as does Autosport, although Motor Sport says it was a 12-plug early de Dion car. Either car could account for his speed in qualifying.

[Vitesse2]

I've checked four different sources on this one: it's 3-1 in favour of Landi having started, but all three say he retired on lap 1 with transmission failure. The one who says he didn't start is Paul Sheldon while Steve Small, Mike Lang and Hayhoe & Holland all say he did.
Those who venture an opinion on the car say it was a 375 and Sheldon specifically says the 2.5 litre car wasn't used: however, he does show it as a T-car for Landi! So, he contradicts himself ...

Chico:
The book you have seen a page from is a volume of "A record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing" by the aforementioned Paul Sheldon. I'm afraid the volumes are very expensive and some are now out of print. Each volume is £55, which I make about 190 Reals, if my calculations are correct. They are available from specialist bookshops e.g:

http://www.chaters.co.uk/

I'll try and find something on Scuderia Bandeirantes for you too ....

[Chico Landi]

Thanks Vitesse, I already ordered one of this volumes, the only one available. Let's hope it works!!!

I've compiled several results of Landi's carreer and got to a fine result so far: 60 races, 17 wins, 9 2nd places, 4 3rd places. That means 32 podiums, more than 50%!!! I believe that in a 40 years long career (from 34 to 73), Landi may have entered more (maybe much more) than 200 races, but I must go to some brazilians archives to find out more about his results. As I'm living abroad, this would only be possible by the end of the year...

I've found out results from about 20 races he entered in Europe, but there are some that I have no results, only some lines that I read somewhere. If someone could help me, here they are:
1948 - 2nd in a race at Silverstone (NOT in October 2nd)
1949 - 4th at Bari GP (no idea about the date)
1949 - 4th in Monza (possibly in june 26th)
1949 - good result in Swiss (possibly Bremgartner, NOT in july 3rd)
1949 - good result in Holland (possibly Zandvoort, NOT in july 31st)
1952 - 3rd place at Silverstone (possibly in july 19th, same day as the "F2-F1" race - maybe a support race?)

Maybe the lines I read were completely wrong, but I'll be glad if someone could check this in more reliable sources...

Thanks!

[Chico Landi]

Maybe I should give you fine people a few lines about Landi's carrer:

-Born in 1907 in Sao Paulo, son of italian immigrants
-Started his racing carrer in 1934 (27 years-old), at the II GP from Rio de Janeiro (Gávea), driving a Bugatti, DNF
-First victory in 1935, at the Chapadao circuit in Campinas (near Sao Paulo)
-Raced many times in Brazil during WWII with cars moved by gas, as gasolina was prohibited for racing at that time
-First race in Europe was 47 Bari GP
-His victory at Bari 48 was the first of a brazilian driver abroad
-Was said to take part at the Scuderia Ferrari from 49 to 52
-Possible last race in Europe was in 55 (GP Supercortemaggiore, Monza)
-Was the first driver to win the Brazilian Mil Milhas without driving a 'carretera'. This was in 1960, at the 5th edition of this event.
-Last win that I know was in 1968, at Porto Alegre (61 years old)
-Last race was at the 1973 24hs of Interlagos. 3rd place, sharing the drive with his son Luiz.
-Died in 1989

There's much more to tell, but I better write the book first!;)

[Roger Clark]

This picture shows the start of the 1951 Italian GP



Landi was on the fourth row. I believe that's him with spinning wheels just behind Trintingnant's Simca-Gordini. I'll leave it to those with better knowledge (or eyesight) to say whether it's a 4 or 12 cylinder car.

[David McKinney]

I have a longer list of Landi’s European races than yours, Chico, though it omits some of the events on your list:

1948 - he was definitely not second in any race at Silverstone
1949 - I don’t believe he raced in either Switzerland or Holland - certainly not in the respective GPs. He was however fourth in that year’s F2 Bari GP, as you say, though his car was taken over by Villoresi during the event. And he was third in the F2 Monza Autodrome GP.
1952 - he finished third in the libre race at the British GP meeting

My full list (below) shows he also raced in Europe in 1956

1947
DNF Bari GP 13/7 (Scuderia Plate Maserati 4CL)
1948
1st F2 Bari GP 30/5 (Ferrar 166)
unplaced F1 Penya Rhin GP 31/10 (Maserati 4CL)
1949
3rd F2 Monza Autdrome GP 28/5 (Ferrari)
4th F2 Bari GP 13/6 (Ferrari/Villoresi)
1950
seems not to have raced in Europe
1951
DNF F1 Albi GP 5/8 (Ferrari 375)
DNF F1 Bari GP 2/9 (Maserati)
DNF F1 Italian GP 16/9 (Ferrari 375)
DNS F1 Spanish GP 28/10 (Maserati)
1952
2nd F1 Albi GP 1/6 (Ferrari 375)
DNF F2 Monza GP 8/6 (Escuderia Bandeirantes Maserati A6GCM)
3rd Silverstone libre race 19/7 (Ferrari 375)
2nd F1 race Boreham 2/8 (Ferrari 375)
DNF F2 Comminges GP 10/8 (Escuderia Bandeirantes Maserati A6GCM)
9th F2 Dutch GP 17/8 (Escuderia Bandeirantes Maserati A6GCM; car taken over by Flinterman)
8th F2 Italian GP 7/9 (Escuderia Bandeirantes Maserati A6GCM)
1st Bari sportscar race 27/9 (Ferrari 195)
1953
DNF F2 Eifelrennen 1/6 (Maserati A6GCM)
DNF F2 Swiss GP 23/8 (Maserati A6GCM)
DNF F2 Italian GP 13/9 (Maserati A6GCM)
1954
4th Trullo d’Oro sportscar race 22/8 (Ferrari 166MM)
1955
9th Bari 2.0 sportscar race 15/5 (Ferrari)
4th GP Supercortamaggiore 29/5 (sports Ferrari, with Cornacchia)
DNF Giro della Calabria sportscar race 31/7 (Ferrari 2.0)
1956
6th in class Paris 1000km sportscar race 10/6 (Maserati 2.0, with Gerini)
3rd in class (7th overall) Messina 5hr sportscar race 26/8 (Maserati 2.0, with Gerini)

Good luck with your project!

[Michael Müller]

Concerning Monza 1951 – my info was based on Sheldon and some websites which obviously are based on his work.

Son of Italian immigrants, is it possible that his family came originally from the Bari area, which may explain his favour for this race?

Interesting info that racing on gasoline was not allowed in Brazil during WW2. What do you mean with “gas”, LPG? Will start separate thread on this topic.

Believe he was only occasionally SF driver, Bari GP and Autodromo GP in 1949 in # 04C may be works entries, but it is also possible that the car was already owned by Landi resp. the ACB at this time, and only managed by the SF.
And Enzo giving away a car for nothing ...? It is reported that in these years he invented the copper wire by fighting with a customer for a penny...!

In September 1951 a.f.a.i.k. there was no Ferrari 4-cylinder 2.5 ltr car. Ferrari’s first 4-cylinder was the 500, which appeared first time one week after Monza at Modena, but even if tested already at Monza, it was only a 2 liter. Early in 1951 there had been 2 prototypes of a tipo 212 (2.5 liter), one was entered by the SF for Serafini at Siracusa and Pau, the other was sold to Rudi Fischer (Scuderia Espadon). However, the 212 engine was a 12-cylinder.

[Vitesse2]

Chico, you will I am sure be interested in this thread in "another place"

http://www.ten-tenth...?threadid=10715

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Michael Müller

In September 1951 a.f.a.i.k. there was no Ferrari 4-cylinder 2.5 ltr car. Ferrari’s first 4-cylinder was the 500, which appeared first time one week after Monza at Modena, but even if tested already at Monza, it was only a 2 liter. Early in 1951 there had been 2 prototypes of a tipo 212 (2.5 liter), one was entered by the SF for Serafini at Siracusa and Pau, the other was sold to Rudi Fischer (Scuderia Espadon). However, the 212 engine was a 12-cylinder.

The first appearance of the 4-cylinder Ferrari was at Bari on 2nd September. This was the famous event when Moss thought he was to drive it, only to find it had been given to Taruffi. It turned him against Ferrari for te rest of his career. It was certainly at monza even if Landi didn't race it. All the magazines I have say so, nd Autocourse has a picture of the engine.

As to its capacity, Hans Tanner's book Ferrari says that it was 2.5-litres at Bari and monza but 2-litres at Modena. Autosport said at Bari "It is quite possible that the engine was nearer 2.5-litres".

[Michael Müller]

Roger, you are right! # 001 at Bari in fact was a tipo 625. Should do my homework better. Early in 1951 Ferrari built the 2 (not identical) prototypes of the 2.5 liter V12 tipo 212, because at that time it had been expected that from 1952 onwards the formula could be 2500 cc. As far I know already in spring 1951 this was finally abandoned (and as we all know delayed until 1954). For the rest of the year it was the question whether the existing formula (4.5/1.5) will be continued, or whether it will be F2, with final decision early October 1951 in favour of F2. So it is strange that Ferrari besides the 212 built another 2.5 liter prototype. Is it possible that the 2.5 liter formula was still kept as 3rd option by the FIA/CSI for 1952?

[Chico Landi]

Vitesse, thanks for the hint about the "other place"!!!

David, thank you so much for your list. Just one doubt arised: at the 1951 Albi GP you wrote that he drove a Ferrari 375. But I have found that he drove a Maserati from Scuderia Milan in this race. Can anyone else find a third source, just to check it out?

Another question: I read that he won the 52 Bari sportscar GP driving a Ferrari with 2300cc, beating Cole's and Castelotti's 2715cc Ferraris. With this information, can anyone tell the modell name of Landi's Ferrari and of the other Ferraris?

Thanks!

[Roger Clark]

Albi 1951: Autosport said Landi drove a Maserati, autocourse said it was a Milan

[Vitesse2]

We have here another fine example of Paul Sheldon contradicting himself!

His Albi entry list says Landi drove a works Ferrari 375 while the text says he drove a Milano Maserati.

Apart from the Spanish GP, when two 4CLT/48s appeared for Godia and Jover, the only entries I've found for Scuderia Milano in 1951 were 4CLT/48s in non-Championship races for Farina when Alfa were not involved and a solitary entry for Marimon in the Speluzzi-engined car in the French GP.

It would seem unlikely that they would turn out a car for Landi at Albi; unless, perhaps, he was test driving it with a view to buying one. Again, unlikely,since the 4CLT/48 was already obsolete although perhaps it would have still been competitive in South America: in the event, Landi and Escuderia Bandeirantes did buy three Maseratis, but they were A6GCMs.

As to the Ferraris:
Landi - possibly a 1950 model, the 195, which had a 2341cc engine
Others: any one of several possible variants of the 225 (2715cc V12 engine)

[Don Capps]

Let me put in a good word for Paul Sheldon & Company: Sheldon and The Black Books were the equivalent of the Starship Enterprise in the GP/Voiturette universe. He truly went where few ventured. He establishd a benchmark to work from and for most of us to build on. Errors are unavoidable in this sort of thing. Also, most are not aware of the Addenda that he published correcting many of those errors.

While many of us talked about doing it, he went out and actually did it.

The level of the game is higher now thanks to Paul Sheldon and his hardworking group.

Having said that, it is still a bit distressing that the corrections to the Sheldon Black Books are still a matter of hit and miss. Thank goodness for folks like y'all.

[Vitesse2]

Don: I wasn't knocking Sheldon and he's by no means the only author to contradict himself! At least he's usually about 99% accurate but it just seems strange that there should be two contradictions on the same subject in the same volume. And if you look at the entry for Landi in Albi 1951, it's in slightly darker type than the surrounding text, which looks like a later correction to me.

[Don Capps]

Another hobby (okay, another obsession...) I have is US military and naval aircraft serials and designations. The contradictions in some of the 'official' records will drive you nuts. Before I die, I would truly like to sort out all the various JN-4 and JN-6 and DH-4 variants with the appropriate serials.... Every time I think I am close.... Ditto for other aircraft as well.

I realize that it wasn't a dig at Sheldon but there are times when it seems nothing makes sense. The years I spent on the Maserati 250F make it clear to me that sometimes it is 'truth' rather than 'Truth' that you have to settle for.

Besides, this has been a nice thread. A belated 'Welcome!' to our new member of the forum.

[FEV]

Hi,

About the 1948 Bari Grand Prix, I found this in Robret Cutter's
1973 "Encyclopedia of Auto Racing Greats". It was in the article
about Felice Bonetto, so the italian drier is the centerpiece of it,
but I thought it could interest you.

"The Grand Prix of Bari was a wheel to wheel, nose to nose
battle in 1948 between 45 year old Felice Bonetto in a Cisitalia
and Chico Landi in a Ferrari. With 10 laps to go Bonetto was
leading when Chico Landi tried to pass in a corner. Bonetto's
front wheels were caught between Landi's rear wheels and a
edge, flipping the car. Felice Bonetto was thrown clear and
knocked inconscious. Solicitous spectators carried him to a
nearby house, but he came to his senses quickly and tried to
get back in his car. A doctor and a spectator attempted to
restrain the still groggy driver, but were knocked down for their
interference. Through steer muscle he righted the car, pushed it
to restart, jumped in as the motor caught and rejoined the race.
Felice Bonetto didn't win, but was second such was his
competitivness".

Those were the days.:yawn:

FEV

[Chico Landi]

Amazing story, Fev!!! Thanks!

[Chico Landi]

About Sheldon's book, I want to order the volume 5, but before I do it, can anyone please tell me if it has the results of the races in Gávea circuit (GPs Cidade do Rio de Janeiro, run twice in 52, for example)???

[Vitesse2]

Chico: sorry to disappoint you, but unfortunately the Sheldon volume 5 only covers races run to Formula 1, Formula 2 and the by-then defunct (but still occasionally run) post-war Voiturette Formula. The Rio races you mention were, of course, Formule Libre. I have copies of Vols 5 and 6 and there isn't a single Brazilian race in either of them!

[Michael Müller]

Some months ago the Temporada was topic in various threads, our forum member Tony Kaye then took over the task to issue result lists of these races from 1946 to 1952, some kind of accumulation of data from various sources, although not totally complete. I will send you this file (pdf), if you inform me your e-mail address, as Atlas mail system does not allow attachments.

[Chico Landi]

Thanks Michael, I'll be glad to receive that:

please sent the file to faster.gh@bol.com.br

(Yep, Vitesse, I'm the guy from the "other place");)

[Chico Landi]

I know many people know this by heart, so let me ask it:

Sheldon wrote that Landi's win at Bari 48 was the first of a Ferrari F2. When was the first F1 Ferrari's win? British GP 51 or earlier than that (something between 47 and 50)? And when was Ferrari's first sportscar win?

This information will be useful for the text I'm preparing, specially because Bari 48 will be a whole chapter itself. Thanks!

[Vitesse2]

First Ferrari Formula 1 win: Farina in a 125GP, Circuit of Garda 1948

http://www.fortuneci...e/54/index1.htm

First sports car win: Cortese in a 125 Sport, Rome GP 1947

http://www.pha.jhu.e...nchamp1947.html


And the full result of the Bari sports car GP 1952 mentioned above is at:

http://www.pha.jhu.e...amp1952.html#73

[Chico Landi]

Just one funny thing about this 48 Bari race: after Chico won, there were no brazilian national anthem to be played (remember, it was the first win of a brazilian driver abroad). A solution was soon founded: they've played an aria of the Carlos Gomes' opera "O Guarani". I bet Chico found that funny...

[Chico Landi]

I was making a research at barchetta.cc and found some hints about the Maseratis from Escuderia Bandeirantes.

It seems that this team aquired three A6 GCMs models in 1951: chassis # 2032, 2033 and 2034. It makes sense as in 1952 the Escuderia Bandeirantes runned three cars in some events, driven by Landi, Brazil's Gino Bianco and Uruguay's Heitel (or Eitel) Cantoni.

The same site brings that the ACB (Automóvel Clube do Brasil) bought two Maseratis, but they were actually A6 GCS's models. One was bought in 1950 (chassi #2012) and one in 1952 (chassi #2019).

In my opinion, this suggests that Escuderia Bandeirantes had no backing from ACB (and I always read that Landi complained of the lack of support from ACB during his years in Europe) and was a completely independent team, maybe organised by Landi himself.

Just a guess. Maybe someone who owns the book "Maserati: a history" may find more about this...

[Michael Müller]

Information I have is that # 2034 was a works car first, and sold to Bandeirantes only in 1953.

[Chico Landi]

Michael,

actually, your information seems to be correct. What wonders me is that in three races in 1952, the Escuderia Bandeirantes entered with three Maseratis A6GCM: Comminges (10/8), Dutch GP (17/8) and Italian GP (07/9).

Now there's a good mistery to be solved, hmmm? Could be that Maserati rented the # 2034 to Escuderia Bandeirantes? Also, I have no register of a race from Escuderia Bandeirantes in 1953. Not with a single car, certainly not with three cars. Landi drove an A6GCM in the ADAC Eifelrennen (31/5) and in the Swiss GP (23/8) as a personal entrant, and the same model in the Italian GP (13/9) as a Scuderia Milano entrant.

Any clues?

[oldtimer]

What amazing threads you find when you just go dipping! Thanks Chico for starting it, and welcome.

What caught my eye are the references to Felice Bonetto, particularly FEV's posting. This, the Felice Bonetto regarded as a non-serious driver by visitors from another forum after a picture of him driving a Maserati with a pipe in his mouth was posted.

History certainly has a broad canvas...

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by Chico Landi
What wonders me is that in three races in 1952, the Escuderia Bandeirantes entered with three Maseratis A6GCM: Comminges (10/8), Dutch GP (17/8) and Italian GP (07/9).

Now there's a good mistery to be solved, hmmm? Could be that Maserati rented the # 2034 to Escuderia Bandeirantes? ...

Any clues?

Hello Chico ! Fine to have you here. You created a very interesting thread and got Michael started. I know him for long and I'm sure, his additional research will help you a lot. For sure his has not finished.

Now to the mistery: The first two A6GCMs (#2032 and #2033) had been built in the end of 1951 and then sold to Escuderia Bandeirantes. The next three cars (#2034 - 2036) had been the workscars for the first half of the season 1952. When Officine A. Maserati built two more cars in the middle of 1952, one more (#2034, you guess it) had been sold to Sc. Bandeirantes. The first race of this car under their banner was Comminges on 10/8. So not sold in 1953!

The two mentioned A6GSs (#2012, 1950 and #2019, 1952) had been sold to the ACB, correct. The one is to see here:



An interesting picture is the following, an A6GCS with light painted bonnet, maybe in argentine colours ? Stated to be Palmieri's car (#2014). Who can identify it ?



And ... Michael will excuse my short comment on the different Ferrari-chassisnumbers, mentioned by him and stated for cars of distinct drivers in distinct events. They all are most probably correct, but most of them not proven !!! So be carefully with the use of this chassisnumbers and always add a questionmark!

Go on with the excellent work.

[Vitesse2]

Chico: I liked the story about the missing national anthem. [OT mode on]It brings to mind Nuvolari's win in the 1935 German GP when the authorities were so certain that a German would win that there was no recording of the Italian national anthem available. So Nuvolari provided one himself! Apparently he always travelled with one.[/OT mode off]

[alessandro silva]

Here are the starting numbers for the Bari 1948 GP. The source is the Balestra-de Agostini book on Cisitalia.
It is possibly the weirdest numbering that I know of:
1 Villoresi
7 Taruffi
53 Bonetto
8 Farina
6 Nuvolari
4 Varzi
38 Landi
726 Cherubini
297 Besana
56 Auricchio
3 Ascari
27 Righetti
205 Ruggiero
774 Vallone
72 Rocco
58 Rovelli
114 Taraschi
The line-up is as in Sheldon. I wrote to the local newspaper but got no answer, not even whether they keep old issues.

[Vitesse2]

My first thought on those numbers was that the numbers for Taraschi, Ruggiero, Cherubini and possibly Besana and Vallone (misprints for 207 and 724??) were start numbers for the Mille Miglia, but the only source I've found (Georgano Enyclopaedia) says that numbering system didn't start till 1949. Any confirmation of that anyone? Or did any other road race use the system? Tour of Sicily perhaps?

It looks like they just ran with whatever numbers were on the cars when they arrived!!

[Michael Müller]

Really strange race numbers, and it seems Vitesse2 is right. Besana’s 297 he had also 4 weeks earlier at the MM, the same for Ravelli’s BMW 328 (# 58). Righetti had the 27 already on May 9 at Vercelli. Strange enough the numbers 114, 205, 726, and 774 seem to be no MM numbers. Can anybody complete the list any further?

[Chico Landi]

Thanks for the nice pictures, Egon! This Maserati with an ACB logo is so lovely!!!

Alessandro, you've mentioned a book about Cisitalia. This thread was really the first time I've heard about this team. Would you be so kind to drop here a few lines about it? Like, who created it and when, major wins, most famous drivers and when the team was closed?

Thanks!