96 replies to this topic

[Janzen]

There have been a lot of talk about hiom lately, and I do agree he has had great success with his cars. But if I understand correctly he is really an aerodynamist.
My case is that a few years ago very few teams had the technology to do much windtunnel work and then you needed a guy that would make the right decision. But now a lot of the teams have big windtunnels and all kind of equipment to test these things, just test it in the tunnel if it works put it on the car.
It has also been discussed that the McLaren isn't very good in the slow corners where the aero doesn't play a part.
So is Newey today still worth the money?

[Ricardo F1]

He's brilliant at what he does. He is not the man that creates these 'newey passengers' that every MS fan on this board thinks.

Simple.

[Juan]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
He's brilliant at what he does. He is not the man that creates these 'newey passengers' that every MS fan on this board thinks.

Simple.

Pity the facts show that your wrong and im right ricardo.

Have you seen his statistics?

Its plain as day.
Id be embarresed to argue against such numbers.

Ill agree with you ricardo,if you can explain to me why every driver who sits in a newey car can dominate the rest of the field for the vast majority of races for the past 10 years or so.

While this strange phenomenon has not occured with any other designer.

[Ricardo F1]

What that good drivers have beaten MS in a good car?? What's your point - other than MS has not won every race this season in the best car?

[squiggle bob]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
He's brilliant at what he does. He is not the man that creates these 'newey passengers' that every MS fan on this board thinks.

Simple.

thank you for letting me know what i think!

[MuMu]

Just have a look at the 2000 and 2001 Macs (compared to say, the Ferraris) and it'll tell you whether he's all that great.
He's had one WCC in the last 4 years (if you count 2001) and Byrne three. Byrne's include one year (99) where they didn't even have a top ten driver in their car for most of the season.
Newey's way overrated - I wonder if he'll ever design a championship winning car again.

[squiggle bob]

the season isn;t even half way over and the ferrari has won yet another WCC!! i'm not going to bother watching anymore races...

[MuMu]

If you're watching the rest of the season for the championship alone, it's gonna be a boring season. It's as good as decided.
The individual races will provide some entertainment though, so don't stop watching.

[Hooster]

Originally posted by Janzen
But now a lot of the teams have big windtunnels and all kind of equipment to test these things, just test it in the tunnel if it works put it on the car.
It has also been discussed that the McLaren isn't very good in the slow corners where the aero doesn't play a part.
So is Newey today still worth the money?

It is not that simple, far from it. If it was the teams would hire joe from the street, have him cobble together parts and test them in the wind tunnel. In order to use a wind tunnel efficiently you need to have something good to test in the first place. If all you are doing is testing crap parts all day in the tunnel you will not get anywhere. The F1 teams use trial and error in wind tunnel testing but they do not have the luxury of many years of that kind of work to develop a car. In order to make good use of a wind tunnel you NEED a good aero designer.

To adress the subject of Newey passengers I would like to say that the drivers who won the WDC in his cars are for the most part very good. They may not have been able to win without having the best car on the grid that particular year but they were still very good. Were they the best driver in F1 the year they won their WDC's? Speaking of recent years I would have to say no. They were simply fortunate enough to have the best car.

[brett_sequeira]

is he overated or not, well that i personally do not know. what i do know was that jaguar and mclaren were both fighting tooth and nail for him, so he must be something good and worth the money they spent and are spending.
is he the best??? --- well how do you decide that based only on one factor aerodynamics ---- isn't an f1 car more than just the wings and under body aero.
so the macks aren't doing well does that mean newey is ay fault??? well if he was i dont see ron fighting desparately for him.

[Janzen]

I did not mean for it to sound trivial, the top teams have got whole teams of aero designers. You must agree that a few years ago not many of the teams had there own windtunnel or then it was a very small one. Now the top teams have big tunnels and even smaller teams have their own tunnels. I would think that there are good aero desingers out there they would not have to take someone from the street. But i do not see a huge advantage in Aero design today that would justify what they pay Newey and perhaps that is what is wrong with McLaren today, if they could a afford a decent programmer they might get the cars of the line.
So my opinion stands that a certain level has been reached in the aero field so that it is not justified to pay huge amounts when the funds would be needed elsewhere for example on the electronic side.

[Hooster]

Originally posted by Janzen

So my opinion stands that a certain level has been reached in the aero field so that it is not justified to pay huge amounts when the funds would be needed elsewhere for example on the electronic side.

What is it you know that Ron Dennis and the leaders of Jaguar do not know? You have a right to your opinion but unless you can explain how you know better than one of the most succesful people in F1 today (Ron Dennis) it does not carry much weight. If Ron and other top F1 bosses believe AN is worth paying a lot of money for and fighting for, then chances are they are right.

[Janzen]

Obviously Ron knows more than I do, and it is his money. But looking at Mclaren last year and this year it doesn't look like they are going in the right direction.
I agree with you that the McLaren is rather strong in the aero department, it is other things they are lacking now like reliability do not know who are responsible for that, so we will see what happens in the future.
I do hope Mclaren keeps it position in the top 2, but that mean they will have to pull there stuff together.

[Hooster]

You have a point there. It looks like Newey has been on a slight downhill slide lately.

[Smooth]

Newey's design hit a few snags early this year, with him somewhat adappting the F1-2000's high nose. He has worked through it pretty well. His cars have continued to be extremely fast, even at the end of last year when Ferrari overtook them a bit, it was only marginal. This year, they have a fast car in race trim, as good as Ferrari in most races this year, but qualifying setup has been tougher for them.

The team, however, is what has lost them the constructers crown. In 1999, once MS was out, it should have been done and over. McLaren, however, continued to bobble strategies, and screw up pit-stops. Adrians car was more than capable, pity Ron's illusion of 'The most polished, professional and best prepared team in the paddock' holds no real water lately. Ferrari, as an overall team, has worked better. Ferrari have been more able to capitalize on McLaren's errors than McLaren on Ferrari's.

DC: “I think we consistently need to improve and get more from our tyres in qualifying,” he said. “Ferrari are very strong in qualifying and we’re very strong in the races. But the whole point about racing is to get points. I’m going out there every time to win."

This year Adrian had the foresight to know that a tire war would mean not only quicker times, but also better wear, so he compromised on the aeros a bit, and designed a bigger fuel cell into the car. He has, since Malaysia, corrected many of the problems at the front end of the car as well. His design isn't letting anyone down, the electronics whiz, the drivers, the mechanics and the pit crew are all doing there part to hose things up.

[miniman]

Newey is without a doubt the class of the field among designers and aerodynamicists, it has taken many years for the likes of Ferrari and Williams to approach the aerodynamic efficiency of Newey designed cars.

Given that rules haven't changed in a few years it is only natural that other teams make larger steps in a aero design vs. McLaren who already had a close to optimum package. Parity is a good thing, it stimulates competition and today we see 3 teams very close together on top.

I believe if the rules were to change drastically from one year to the next, the superiority of a Newey design car would become very obvious, history has shown that. There are however some intangibles like access to wind tunnels and computer models that make a designers work less intuitive and more scientific so the margins between a good design and a bad one will not be as wide.

[MuMu]

If the Byrnemobiles can come straight out of the box and break track records with a test driver, that is a good design.
The Ferrari has done that.
The Mac's been slow (in top-3 team terms) from the start of the season - how can the blame be put on the mechanics, drivers, tyres, electronics etc for this?
No doubt that Newey's good, but really, he's far from the being the best out there.

[Spunout]

Newey is a great designer. However like most of you (Juan excluded) know he doesn´t design every part of the car. He is mainly responsible of aerodynamics (and overall construction) - and like you know this year´s Macs had many problems in that particular area clearly showing even Newey is not perfect. Every part of F1 car counts and they are made by multiple people/teams (inside a team) and even companies meaning no designer alone makes the good car. I believe it´s very possible if you had put Mercedes engine and McLaren technology to Arrows 2000 chassis (theoretically) Pedro De La Rosa would be last year´s champion right now.

[Hooster]

Originally posted by MuMu
If the Byrnemobiles can come straight out of the box and break track records with a test driver, that is a good design.
The Ferrari has done that.
The Mac's been slow (in top-3 team terms) from the start of the season - how can the blame be put on the mechanics, drivers, tyres, electronics etc for this?
No doubt that Newey's good, but really, he's far from the being the best out there.

Macs have been breaking track records before the season started as well. I believe the fact that the Ferrari broke the track record out of the box was due to the new tyres much more than the new design. Most will agree with me that the new tyres are the main reason the cars are going so much faster this year.

If the Macs were slow at the start of the season, then why was Mika in a position to win the Melbourn race before the front suspension failed? Ron himself believes Mika would have won.

[Todd]

Originally posted by MuMu
If the Byrnemobiles can come straight out of the box and break track records with a test driver, that is a good design.
The Ferrari has done that.
The Mac's been slow (in top-3 team terms) from the start of the season - how can the blame be put on the mechanics, drivers, tyres, electronics etc for this?
No doubt that Newey's good, but really, he's far from the being the best out there.

Byrnemobiles fast out of the box? Is this your first season watching F1? Do you remember the years 1982 through 2000? Those would be the seasons that Byrne didn't produce the fastest car for the first race of the season. From 1992 to 2000, guess who did? Adrian Newey. Do you really think that the team principals are wrong on this topic and you alone are right? At least you don't have the agony of self-awareness.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by MuMu
The Mac's been slow (in top-3 team terms) from the start of the season - how can the blame be put on the mechanics, drivers, tyres, electronics etc for this?

In Australia, after 21 laps, MS was only leading Mika by 2.6 seconds before Mika suffered a suspension failure. This lead, despite MS setting six or seven consecutive fast laps, and having started two positions ahead of Mika. I don't see that as being 'slow'. Indeed, it is MUCH more competitive than the last few years, where Mac was lapping the field in race #1. McLaren have been hot and cold in qualifying, and obviously have problems getting the tires to work at their optimum, but they had race pace in Aussie.

In Malaysia, Mika was first caught out by Ralf's spin, and lost several places. Places he was unable to make up due to a poor tire choice that also caught out his teammate. Ferrari has the drivers, and the aggressive strategy, to take advantage of the conditions. Hard to judge real race pace in the conditions, so we can give the edge to Ferrari. (It should be noted that Ferrari has been very, very good in the first two races at this track, as well). In the race, Mika was hot and cold, as was DC. Both were unable to get through traffic well, though Mika did set fastest lap on lap 40.

In qualifying, McLaren was outpaced by both Ferrari, and Williams. Mika: "We have a problem," Hakkinen later admitted, "which affects us in the last sector. We know what the problem is, but we just haven't been able to solve it yet."



Brazil: Once again, MS looked unbeatable in qualifying. In the race, MS made a very bad choice in setup, or he made a bad tire choice. Either way, he f***ed up, and he paid for it. DC's best race of the season, by a mile. Driving a solid first stint, in the dry, on a wet setup with heavy fuel was impressive. His pace in the wet was good, though he was never really pushed.

qualifying: More of the same, with Rubens looking off the pace.

DC:"The balance of the car has improved and there has been a performance increase from the engine as well," said Coulthard. "The competition is very close and I'm looking forward to the race where we should be in good shape."


Imola: McLaren introduce some aero changes, and qualifying improves, but by how much is debatable, as Ferrari blew their tire choice with a gamble on hard rubber.

Qualifying:

DC: Coulthard, who on his way to pole position beat the current track record, was delighted after denying Schumacher his eighth consecutive start from the top spot. "It is not personal," Coulthard said, laughing. "I feel fantastic to be on pole and have a big advantage for the start. I am sorry for the Italians and supporters of Ferrari - and I think we will try not to do it again. I am a little surprised (about the car's performance) but I expected to see an improvement on this track. The team changed the car last night and worked until four o'clock this morning."

MS: "I think I am happier starting on the second row of the grid on the right tyres for tomorrow, than to be on pole with the wrong ones," said Schumacher. "It was clear that the right moment to go for a time was at the end, but I did not make the most of it. I lost four tenths in the last sector on my last lap. It was my fault."

Race:

Mika: "The start basically decided the outcome of my race, when I was passed by Trulli," said Hakkinen. "It's very difficult to overtake at Imola unless the driver in front of you makes a significant mistake, so I was stuck in fourth place for most of the race."

MS: "It wasn't a great weekend," Schumacher said after retiring from a race for the first time since July last year at the German Grand Prix. "There was something wrong but I don't know what and the team told me to stop, which I was quite happy to do. We had a lot of brake damage as well and it was very disappointing."

DC and McLaren were outclassed by Ralf and Williams.


So the first few races really only saw a reversal of fortunes for McLaren and Ferrari, only not as dramatic as the last few years:
Ferrari having an edge in qualifying, McLaren are close, or are marginally faster the race. Combined with larger tanks, and better wear on the tires than Ferrari, they look set to win more races when they work out the bugs.

[Mrv]

Neweys best days are behind him. He no longer is the top designer in F1. He is on his way to losing 3 Constructor titles in a row. This year Newey dropped the ball on the design of the Mclaren.

[HSJ]

But Smooth, what if it had been your beloved MS driving a Ferrari behind Mika's Mac at Melbourne? I have a funny feeling that then it would have been down to MS's brilliance to hang in there. But since it was Mika, the Mac must have been an amazing car...

And how about this for reasoning: Because McL have Newey, their cars were best in 98 and 99. But now that Ferrari has taken 3 of the last 4 titles (2WCC, 1WDC) we can argue that Byrne designs better cars than Newey, thus McL inferior in 98 and 99. See? You cannot base an argument on a designer. You must stick to actual performance, what little we can know about it. Therefore you cannot simply say:Mac best in xx (insert your favorite year) or the same about Ferrari.

[Hooster]

Originally posted by Smooth

Ferrari having an edge in qualifying, McLaren are close, or are marginally faster the race. Combined with larger tanks, and better wear on the tires than Ferrari, they look set to win more races when they work out the bugs.

Couldn't agree more, and then there is Williams who beat both these teams quite easily in the last race. If MS, DC, MH and RS were equal in points at the moment I am afraid MS would have an extremely hard fight ahead of him. Ferrari do not look like they have any meaningful improvements ready for their car so WDC is by no means decided yet.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by HSJ
You must stick to actual performance, what little we can know about it. Therefore you cannot simply say:Mac best in xx (insert your favorite year) or the same about Ferrari.

I will ignore the first part of your message, because it is just flamebait.
I do agree that it isn't just results that determine car a is better than car b. Watching the races, seeing the strategies, and reading the statements of drivers and others in the paddock can give us a reasonable starting point to debate not only the results, but the potential. If the car has the POTENTIAL, because of its design, to win the race, but does not because of something that the designer had no control over, ie. electronics, component failure, engine or clutch failure, bad tires, etc.... than how can we blame the designer?

[Todd]

Originally posted by HSJ
But now that Ferrari has taken 3 of the last 4 titles (2WCC, 1WDC) we can argue that Byrne designs better cars than Newey, thus McL inferior in 98 and 99. See? You cannot base an argument on a designer. You must stick to actual performance,

Speaking of actual performance, did you watch the two seasons in question? McLaren dominated '98 in every measure of performance. In 1999, McLaren was also dominant in every stat column but results. Why? Because McLaren, Mika, and David made execution errors. Were it not for Mika throwing away two wins, David nerfing his teammate in Austria, and McLaren fouling up a few too many pitstops, Newey's MP4-14 would have had results to reflect just how much faster it really was. In stead, it only had 11 pole positions and 9 fastest laps to show for it. Ferrari was next with 3 pole positions and 6 fastest laps. There was also a race where there was no Ferrari on the first 4 rows. Was the Ferrari the best car of the season? That would be like saying you're the smartest member of the bulleting board.

[Mrv]

Maybe Mclaren dominated in 1999 because Schumacher was watching Mclaren race from his livingroom?

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Mrv
Maybe Mclaren dominated in 1999 because Schumacher was watching Mclaren race from his livingroom?

?? Mclaren dominated on track, but had problems with the cars being properly prepared, or the team hosed the strategy. Ferrari won the WCC, and had their #2 in contention for the WDC. McLaren almost lost it, and while it could be argued that Mika lost a little motivation with is great rival out of the way, and he may have thought EI would be a pushover, McLaren can not be forgiven for the manner in which they went racing, acting as buffoons at times.

[AD]

Newey is still the class of the design field. 12 out of the last 18 championships, or a 67% championship winning record says it all really. The Ferrari and the McLaren appear to be equal, but one swallow doesn't make a summer. Newey will probably have designed the best chassis for next season yet again.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
He's brilliant at what he does. He is not the man that creates these 'newey passengers' that every MS fan on this board thinks.

Simple.

Absolutely the case. there are no newey passengers, certainly not in recent years. mika drove briliiantly in 98 (albiet in a dominant car) and deserved his championship. 99 was a bit of a limp effort by the team though the cars design was still superb. 2000 was pretty much 50/50. 2001 is so hard to call due to the quirks that have affected mclaren.

96/7 was when the 'newey passenger' idea/myth came into being. Two world championships, both taken by drivers who were seemingly outdriven (did anyone pick villeneuve as driver of the year in 97?), and who (esp 97 to be fair to damon) made valiant attempts to lose the almost unloseable championships. hence the unfair moniker

I tend to believe that there ARE no unearned championships, just ones that you SHOULD win if you are good enough to be in the car (like 96/7/8) and ones that would be heroic.

Shaun

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by Todd
Speaking of actual performance, did you watch the two seasons in question? McLaren dominated '98 in every measure of performance. In 1999, McLaren was also dominant in every stat column but results. Why? Because McLaren, Mika, and David made execution errors. Were it not for Mika throwing away two wins, David nerfing his teammate in Austria, and McLaren fouling up a few too many pitstops, Newey's MP4-14 would have had results to reflect just how much faster it really was. In stead, it only had 11 pole positions and 9 fastest laps to show for it. Ferrari was next with 3 pole positions and 6 fastest laps. There was also a race where there was no Ferrari on the first 4 rows. Was the Ferrari the best car of the season?

Exactly Todd.

HSJ, your reasoning is logically invalid, I don't know if you were laughing to yourself at the absurdity of your conclusion or if you are in over your head when it comes to logical reasoning. Please tell me it's the former.

Also, it's plain to the eye that McLaren had by far the best car on the grid in 1998. And don't even think of arguing this obvious fact, to do so would be equivalent to Ross' statement that Jax intentionally hit Michael in 1997 (see http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=23469 if you didn't follow this thread)

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by baddog
I tend to believe that there ARE no unearned championships, just ones that you SHOULD win if you are good enough to be in the car (like 96/7/8) and ones that would be heroic.

This really isn't the correct thread to ask the question but, what in your definition is a heroic championship? What year would you say this last took place. I'd say that one would have taken place if MS had won the WDC in 1998. Of course, I'd argue then that this 'theoretical' championship should be called anti-heroic!

[baddog]

mm I should probably have been clearer

there are championships that you SHOULD win (mansell 92, hill 96, villeneuve 97 hakk 98) and not doing so would be a failure

there are championships that are available for the winning by a driver on top form but not winning isnt necessarily a failing (hakk 99 if MS had stayed in, schumacher 2000)

these two categories represent most of the WDC over the years

then there are the heroic efforts where a driver in a car that isnt the best wins the WDC when he shouldnt by rights be able to. these are rare things indeed.

the last? Im not touching that with a bargepole

Shaun

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by baddog
the last? Im not touching that with a bargepole

[Captain Cook]

This BB is a strange mix. Is Adrian Newey overrated? What possible test could one employ to verify this, given that a formula 1 team consists of quite a number of individuals?

Why, in all walks of life, must people exaggerate the differences between individuals? I am quite sure Adrian Newey is a damn good designer. Rory Byrne probably is too! I think the answer is luck and circumstance.

Mr. Newey arrived at McLaren at a rather fortuitous moment in time, due to the improving mercedes engine. This reflected well on Adrian and his marvellous talents......

Surely the same can be said of Micheal Schumacher (a damn good driver). He leaped from stardom to super-stardom after the 1995 season. One in which he drove a slightly slower car to victory against rivals who either had no testing (Herbert) were practically rookies (Coulthard) or who were far older (in formula 1 terms!). He romped to victory, having nearly all the testing and support in his team, thus beating Hill in his less reliable car.

Anyway, to get back on point. That Newey fella is a great designer isn't he? The Messiah? I think its a "no" to the latter.

Luck and circumstance, luck and circumstance.

((By the way, why the hell aren't people talking about money instead of CCs?))

[Blade]

I think those people who agreed on the so called "Newey Passengers" should take a piss and take a good look at themselves.

[Captain Cook]

Originally posted by Blade
I think those people who agreed on the so called "Newey Passengers" should take a piss and take a good look at themselves.

Is this some self-humbling ritual which runs in your family? To clarify; should they do both at the same time?

[BADGER]

When was the last time that niether MS or Newey were not involved in the drivers championship? I am not sure of the exact year, but it has been quite a few and that shows that if you can't have MS, then Newey is the best option. Not only is he not overated, but history will probably show him to be the greatest designer in F1 history.

[MuMu]

When was the last time MS challenged for the championship without a Byrne car? If one designer moves around between the top teams and the other stays with one driver it does not necessarily mean that the guy who moves around is better.

[ebe]

The 'Newey car' had a very good engine in the back, and this
engine was not made by Newey.

The tires did help a lot in 98 to increase the gap to the rest of the field, something Newey could not do anything about either.

I do not know how much he is involved in constructing the chassis, I suppose he only is focused on aerodynamics.

So his value - as high it is - can only be seen on this aero topic.

[Spunout]

In addition to ebe´s list (engine&tires) Newey doesn´t design...

-gearbox
-brakes
-suspension
-electronics

etc

Of course he is responsible for "overall construction" but these parts are designed by several people and even by several companies.

Talking about "Newey passengers" or Newey alone making cars "superior" is a sign of ignorance IMO. It means blindly looking at stats without even thinking what Newey actually does and doesn´t do. Also there are no "Newey cars".

Now I hope I will not get the answers like...

"Yes but look at the stats and you can see Newey cars have..."

beforehand

[Juan]

Originally posted by Spunout
In addition to ebe´s list (engine&tires) Newey doesn´t design...

-gearbox
-brakes
-suspension
-electronics

etc

Of course he is responsible for "overall construction" but these parts are designed by several people and even by several companies.

Talking about "Newey passengers" or Newey alone making cars "superior" is a sign of ignorance IMO. It means blindly looking at stats without even thinking what Newey actually does and doesn´t do. Also there are no "Newey cars".

Now I hope I will not get the answers like...

"Yes but look at the stats and you can see Newey cars have..."

beforehand

Aerodynamics are THE most important factor of an F1 car,if you knew something about F1 you would know that.

Aerodynamics are also the hardest thing to get right.

The rest of the F1 community obviously agree with me because newey is by far the highest paid designer....

Whys that you think?
Because hes overrated?

They all know how good he is,just accept it.

In 95 newey allowed a rookie DC to match michael in qualifying over a season.....9/8...despite both teams having the same engine,that just says it all.

[Dr.Raj]

Refusing to see Newey's relentless success is ignorence IMO. Aerodynamics is the one department in which you can have your very own approach. The aerodynamicist is the guy that designs a body keeping in mind all the different components. He can make significant changes every race, that's why he's important on a race to race basis. He has to build the chassis based on the dimensions of the engine, he has to design the sidepods keeping in mind the radiators, he has to keep in mind tire ware, etc. He's the guy that gets the whole car together in the end. That's why he's extremely important.

Newey is very good, and I think he's the best because he delivers so often.
But I do think Rory Byrne is underated. The guy who designed the F2000 and the F2001 needs to be given more credit. People keep talking about Todt and Brawn, but I think Rory deserves as much credit.

[MuMu]

Yeah right JuAn, that's why the Williams are so quick this year dispite not being that good in the aero dept...

Tyres are more important than aerodynamics.
So is a good engine.
And mechanical grip.

[Dr.Raj]

Originally posted by MuMu
Tyres are more important than aerodynamics.

Many teams use the same tires, but Newey works only for one team.

[yr]

Juan: "...Newey is by far highest paid designer"

Please, Juan, be a nice guy and give us who have
no entry for designers salary information the source
which proved to you that AN is "highest paid by far".
I thought, for example, Brunner (or whatever the name of
that ex-Minardi designer is)
had an offer which "he couldnt refuse" from
Toyota. I doubt that Toyotas offer was lower "by far"
than what Newey gets from Mclaren. But since you
obviously know exact figures, then please share those
with us.

Also i have to disagree with you about Neweys stats
proving his worth. Sure, he is a top designer no doubt,
but his achievements came in the two of the three
best teams in the history of the sport !!!
It wasnt like he was lifting first Minardi and then Prost
from nowhere to the top all by himself. Williams
and Mclaren are top teams which both are bound to
rise to the top after short period of downhill.
Take a look at this years Williams, in capable hands
(read Ralf Schumacher) it is a race winning car by merit,
RS won one race against healthy Mac of DC and one
race against healthy Fer of MS, both races he started
behind those guys. If Williams isnt a good car this year
then i dont know what is. So,as you see, Williams is
on its way to the top again (just wait for next year...),
without Adrian Newey ! Yes, you read it right:
WITHOUT ADRIAN NEWEY.

So Newey left one top team by the time they lost their
engine and joined another top team while they just
had had enough time with Ilmor to develop a top engine.
Good timing from Newey ... thats all.

[Juan]

Originally posted by yr
Juan: "...Newey is by far highest paid designer"

Please, Juan, be a nice guy and give us who have
no entry for designers salary information the source
which proved to you that AN is "highest paid by far".
I thought, for example, Brunner (or whatever the name of
that ex-Minardi designer is)
had an offer which "he couldnt refuse" from
Toyota. I doubt that Toyotas offer was lower "by far"
than what Newey gets from Mclaren. But since you
obviously know exact figures, then please share those
with us.

Also i have to disagree with you about Neweys stats
proving his worth. Sure, he is a top designer no doubt,
but his achievements came in the two of the three
best teams in the history of the sport !!!
It wasnt like he was lifting first Minardi and then Prost
from nowhere to the top all by himself. Williams
and Mclaren are top teams which both are bound to
rise to the top after short period of downhill.
Take a look at this years Williams, in capable hands
(read Ralf Schumacher) it is a race winning car by merit,
RS won one race against healthy Mac of DC and one
race against healthy Fer of MS, both races he started
behind those guys. If Williams isnt a good car this year
then i dont know what is. So,as you see, Williams is
on its way to the top again (just wait for next year...),
without Adrian Newey ! Yes, you read it right:
WITHOUT ADRIAN NEWEY.

So Newey left one top team by the time they lost their
engine and joined another top team while they just
had had enough time with Ilmor to develop a top engine.
Good timing from Newey ... thats all.

Williams are on different tyres than its main rivals, so you cant compare them directly.

We saw the comparisons from 98-00 and it was quite sad.

Williams were successfull because of newey,they had a few periods in the 80s but they almost dominated the whole 90s because of mr newey.

[Spunout]

Juan I agree Newey is PROPABLY the best designer in F1.

What I disagree is Newey alone making the car good. During 90s he has joined only top teams. While aerodynamics is very important part of F1 car and like you also said very hard to get right it must be remembered it´s not everything: 2000 Arrows had brilliant aerodynamics - did Pedro De La Rosa fight for WDC? No. Why? Because many parts top teams use are too expensive for smaller teams - for example slightly lighter brakes etc (and because their engine wasn´t good enough). Things are not always what they seem - look deeper than stats and you can see better why things happen.

"In 95 newey allowed a rookie DC to match michael in qualifying over a season.....9/8...despite both teams having the same engine,that just says it all."

If we assume Williams was somewhat better how can you PROVE the advantage Williams had was because of aerodynamics? Perhaps it was because of better suspension/brakes/gearbox etc? Perhaps Williams had slightly lighter (and more expensive) parts in their cars? Pr perhaps it was because of better aerodynamics? The point is we can´t know for sure. You oversimplify things because your understanding is limited to simple stats - which is worthless because you can´t (or want) to interpret stats in objective / logical way. Also like others have tried to explain you before ALL THINGS DO NOT REMAIN STABLE IN F1!

I´m sorry Juan but you really should back your statements up better.

"So Newey left one top team by the time they lost their
engine and joined another top team while they just
had had enough time with Ilmor to develop a top engine.
Good timing from Newey ... thats all."

Good point.

[Dr.Raj]

Spunout, I don't think the Arrows has "brilliant" aerodynamics. It's fast in a straight line, that's all. All you need to do is minimise drag to go fast in a straight line. I think this is because of the size of thier fuel tanks, it's very small. Their chassis don't give them enough downforce. They are slow around the bends due to this problem. If you give a top designer the option of having smaller fuel tanks, he'll be able to make the car a lot faster. The reason they are able to keep up with leaders during the race is because they're always running smaller fuel loads.

Newey has always worked for top teams, money has never been a problem. The top teams usually get good engines, brakes, electronics, whatever. The best teams are usually quite equal in this. But for a team to reign supreme, they need to have the best aerodynamicist. That guy is Newey.

[yr]

Juan: "Williams almost dominated the 90s because
of mr Newey"

All of Williams constructors championsips in 90s came
with Renault engine, when Renault call it a day in 97,
Williams didnt won a single race since that.
Now they have BMW engine and NO mr Newey and
Ralf has won two races on a merit this year, hardly
a coincidence. I am really looking forward for your
excuses in next season if Williams starts to dominate
the whole field again... and i repeat : without Newey.

Williams WDC drivers in 90s were no slouch either:
92 Mansell
93 Prost
9 Hill
97 Villeneuve